I have been a hunter since my early teen years in the forties. I have also practiced as a gunsmith, been a master competitive shooter and am a accuracy nut. Naturally I have been to school on hunters opinions regarding the ideal rifle for deer and other large game animals. Like others I want to have the ideal setup when it comes to harvesting animals. But what is the bottom line? Although I believe that it is good to have what you like, trust and have confidence in when you hunt I think that it is far more important to place the bullet where it causes quick death. Bullet placement is so vital that it can be truthfully stated that it is top priority.Big bullet, high velocity, great expansion, and all else is nothing unless the shooter can place it where it will kill quickly. To make my point I will ask a question? Which is most effective on deer a brain shot with a .22 rifle or a hip shot with a 300 Mag.? 4000 fps is useless if it misses. The no. l consideration is bullet placement, the no. 2 is bullet placement and finally the no. three need is: Putting the bullet where it kills quickly.Is there an argument here? To properly place the bullet one must have recoil that is manageable, fundamental shooting skills, a trigger that permits ignition when called for and finally controling anxiety and carelessness. Don't learn how to find wounded animals, Forget blood tracking skills and learn to anchor your game at the same time that you experience the recoil. It is very satisfying and that is how I have learned to take my animals. If you hear one shot a kill is likely, if you hear two there may be a kill but it was not done right. If you hear three success isn't likely. Comments?

Old indian saying: one shot-meat, two shot-maybe, three shot-heap big BS. I use a Martini in 30-40AI, 180gr RN--nothing has yet to walk away. Here endeth the lesson.

Forget blood tracking skills and learn to anchor your game at the same time that you experience the recoil. Comments?
Well, as careful and well intentioned as we can place all of our shots, I don't think there is a hunter among us that has never had to track an animal. Some animals are big enough that they aren't just going to fold up on the shot unless you shoot them in the head. Bears, moose, cape buffalo, elk, and so on are well known for their ability to absorb punishment and I just don't think people hunting those animals can guarantee every shot on one will drop it in its tracks.

I lost a whitetail doe I shot some long years ago, 19 years to be exact. It was a lung a shot, but I was using my only rifle, an 8mm Rem Mag with my bear loads in it. The deer hunt happened when I was in college in the southeast U.S. The shot was a lung shot, but hit no rib going in or out. The bullet punched an 8mm hole going in and coming out. The doe ran off some distance and in the failing light, I lost the track. That night we had freezing rain and snow. I looked for her for 3 days and couldn't find her. I was sick. About 2 weeks later I stumbled across her about 1/2 mile away. The hole was still visible in her hide. The lungs were trashed, but she ran. A classic case of using the wrong bullet in the wrong situation. Maybe if I would had used a quicker expanding bullet there would have been a quicker death resulting in me finding the deer before the meat spoiled.

I promised myself I would everything humanly possible to not ever have that happen again.

Now, fast forward 19 years later. Haven't lost or had track an animal more than a hundred yards in the years since. Instead of being in the Southeast U.S. or Alaska, I'm in Zimbabwe and we have tracked a group of Waterbuck into an opening in the mopani wood. The setup SEEMED perfect. I adjusted the scope to a high power to put the bullet exactly where I wanted it. At the shot the bull buck run off as if untouched. The PH mumbles something, then walks over and grabs a limb about 15 feet from my muzzle that was cut in two. I never saw that limb. The tracks indicate the bull buck was hit. We spent the next 7 and half hours tracking that rascal down before I get shot on him as he's trying to slip out behind us. Sure enough, I hit him with the first shot back in the haunch. Not enough to leave blood or viseral, but enough to cause the tracker to know he was hit just from his tracks.

Hunting is not just about sneaking into position and getting the shot. It's not just about marksmanship. None of us will ever be perfect on every shot we take from the time we begin hunting till we push up daisies. Knowing how track wounded game IS a vital part of hunting.

Yes, we should do everything humanly possible to ensure that first shot will put the animal down as quickly and humanely as possible, but sooner or later, we are all going to have to follow-up a wounded animal. Learn those skills.

OK, I stand corrected. I appreciate it being pointed out that should we fail to anchor an animal in its tracks we need to have the skills to locate and finish the job if at all possible. Since I have not hunted the larger tougher animals I limited my thoughts to the deer family. Naturally common sense dictates that we need the proper tools for the job to be done. And yes we need to develop all the hunting skills as best we can within the time we have. Older experienced hunters will naturally have more of these than a beginner. Yet, I maintain that the vast majority of game lost is because of poor bullet placement. Yes, circumstances alters the norm. Thanks for the comments.

Ozark,
I didn't mean to take offense to your post at all. Indeed, you make excellent points and something we should all strive for. However, at some point in every hunter's life, no matter how great a marksman, no matter how accurate the firearm, we all will end up tracking down an animal with a less than ideal hit. Funny, but I lost that doe and tracked that Waterbuck for over 7 hours and probably 15 or 20 miles, but while bowhunting, I've never tracked an animal more than 150 yards and never lost one! I did miss a couple, but never wounded one.

I don't bowhunt anymore, though probably would pick it up again if I could find a shooting/hunting partner interested in it. Most hunts I go on now are by my lonesome, even for Dall Sheep and to Africa.

I do agree that sometimes we get wrapped around the axle with minueta of ballistics, cartridges, bullets, etc... but every hunter knows it is the shot that counts, even if we do need to be reminded now and again.

Good post!

Well, as careful and well intentioned as we can place all of our shots, I don't think there is a hunter among us that has never had to track an animal. Some animals are big enough that they aren't just going to fold up on the shot unless you shoot them in the head. Bears, moose, cape buffalo, elk, and so on are well known for their ability to absorb punishment and I just don't think people hunting those animals can guarantee every shot on one will drop it in its tracks.

I lost a whitetail doe I shot some long years ago, 19 years to be exact. It was a lung a shot, but I was using my only rifle, an 8mm Rem Mag with my bear loads in it. The deer hunt happened when I was in college in the southeast U.S. The shot was a lung shot, but hit no rib going in or out. The bullet punched an 8mm hole going in and coming out. The doe ran off some distance and in the failing light, I lost the track. That night we had freezing rain and snow. I looked for her for 3 days and couldn't find her. I was sick. About 2 weeks later I stumbled across her about 1/2 mile away. The hole was still visible in her hide. The lungs were trashed, but she ran. A classic case of using the wrong bullet in the wrong situation. Maybe if I would had used a quicker expanding bullet there would have been a quicker death resulting in me finding the deer before the meat spoiled.

I promised myself I would everything humanly possible to not ever have that happen again.

Now, fast forward 19 years later. Haven't lost or had track an animal more than a hundred yards in the years since. Instead of being in the Southeast U.S. or Alaska, I'm in Zimbabwe and we have tracked a group of Waterbuck into an opening in the mopani wood. The setup SEEMED perfect. I adjusted the scope to a high power to put the bullet exactly where I wanted it. At the shot the bull buck run off as if untouched. The PH mumbles something, then walks over and grabs a limb about 15 feet from my muzzle that was cut in two. I never saw that limb. The tracks indicate the bull buck was hit. We spent the next 7 and half hours tracking that rascal down before I get shot on him as he's trying to slip out behind us. Sure enough, I hit him with the first shot back in the haunch. Not enough to leave blood or viseral, but enough to cause the tracker to know he was hit just from his tracks.

Hunting is not just about sneaking into position and getting the shot. It's not just about marksmanship. None of us will ever be perfect on every shot we take from the time we begin hunting till we push up daisies. Knowing how track wounded game IS a vital part of hunting.

Yes, we should do everything humanly possible to ensure that first shot will put the animal down as quickly and humanely as possible, but sooner or later, we are all going to have to follow-up a wounded animal. Learn those skills.
Alyeska,
Your post rings a bell.
in 1953 I walked up on a spike buck,nd shot him while he had no idea that he was in peril.I hit him broadside,at 50 yards,with two (2) 180 grain bullets,2inches apart,through both lungs.He rn 100 yards and I was working the second shift,so I did not have time to find him.I did find him the next morning.
I was rattled by this experience.I have never shot at a living thing with that make bullet since,and-----i sold the rifle;a beautiful Mark 1 1903 Springfield.Talk about overreaction!
I stepped down in power,but up in efficiency by changing to the 30/40 Springfield (1894),and the hornady 150 grain bullet.
Frank

Goes back to my point of knowing what your bullet will do AFTER impact. Groups are one thing but the performance following the impact is very critical.

alyeska338, had you known what your 8mm bullet would do on a lung shot, would you have re-considered and went for the neck, shoulder or head?

As others said, we're all not going to put every round exactly where we want it nor is every shot going to be perfect. Because of this one must define where they stand morally on the issue. Know your gun, yourself and your ammo.

I've stood there in the woods and left animals walk away because I knew I did not have a good shot on them and didn't take the chance, one was a really nice buck that was gut shot by someone else not 30 minutes later and not found for well over a week....WASTED! I didn't chance the shot because I was not sure I could put the bullet where I wanted, only 35 yds away but the thick underbrush made it a gamble I was not about to take.

Another instance was not having a body shot but being able to see the head and neck clearly. Knew full well a neck shot would be the best, I took it and the deer dropped on the spot. Same area a season later, yet another deer presented me with a front on shot and once again only seeing the head/neck. Confident, I took the shot but the deer ran like someone put a JATO rocket motor up his butt. Knew full well I had missed cleanly but didn't know why until a few minutes later when I found the sapling I grazed with the bullet that I didn't see when shooting. Bullet turned about 40° to the right and made a perfect dead center one shot kill on a maple tree. Didn't get the deer but at least I knew the shot would have either been an instant kill or instant miss such as was the case this time. I have no problem with a clean miss but do have a problem with a bad wound.

My self imposed limitations come from when I was 12 yrs old deer hunting for the first time. Listening to my father who said, and probably still does, " if there're behind brush, just hold for where the should ought to be and let one fly." Not knowing any better since his theories also included such thinking as it's not about the hunt, all that matters is killing stuff, I was at a loss for common sense and sportsmanship. Well, I did as dad instructed, nice 6pt buck came into view at no more than 60 yds. Not waiting for him to mill around and get to where I had a clear shot, I did what dad said and 'let one fly'. Well, the 150gr spitzer from the .300 Sav. took off one of the buck's front legs just above the knee. As he tried to get away, I let another one fly through the thick brush as dad would say and he fell but got back up again and I could no longer see him. Followed the sounds until they stopped, found the bood trail and kept going. Found him suffering from the leg and lower gut shot so I put one in his head. I was sick at the thoughts of what I had done and vowed I would never do that again to any animal, EVER!

Dad of course was PO'ed and I didn't hear the end how I gut shot this deer despite the fact I was following his teachings. The next season rolled around and I was still sickened by what I did the year before so I sat on my assigned post but never loaded the rifle. I watched a Y buck and an 8pt walk right past me and into other hunters who bagged them. I stuck to the story I told dad that I didn't see anything all day and maintained that story for another two seasons. By the time I was 16, I had enough input from a couple friends who had set my hunting skills and moral choices to a higher level and I was proud when I took a nice doe in muzzleloader season with the flintlock. Perfect quartering shot through the heart at 25 yds and she made about 10 staggering steps before falling stone dead. I've never taken a poke & hope shot since that first season and will never do it as long as I live.

Welcome to the forum Ozarkwhittler. Good post, only problem your preaching to the chior. I used to get thru Arkansas once in a while before I quit driving truck. Thats some nice looking deer country out there.

When I was younger I was terribly afflicted with magnumites. Shot a 308 Norma magnum for years then went to the 8mm Rem mag. Of course we hunted elk here in Idaho and Moose and the big bears in Alaska so the magnums worked pretty good.

I always used a Seirra 220 grain boattail in the 8mm mag. At just over 3000 fps it did a good job on the big animals and was just devistating on deer. Most folks claim that bullet is a bit lightly constructed. Perhaps thats why it works so well on deer.

I've got to agree with you about shot placement. I've seen a lot of folks that shoot at deer, not at a selected part of a deer and though they hit the animal many times they will loose it, gut shoot it, knock a leg off and watch it leave and not find it.

My long time hunting partner just shot a nice little spike last week, right thru the guts. He misjuged his shot and got back behind the lungs. I've hunted with him for quite a while and he is an accurate careful hunter and would never do such a thing on purpose, but those things happen, darn.

Anyway welcome again and I'll be looking forward to your input. Hope you have a good hunting season out there, ours is in full swing and though I didn't get an elk this year I'm still chasing the deer. If all else fails I'll take a nice doe before the season ends.

The first pix is across the street from my house.

The second is my trusty old 8mm Rem mag.

The third is an early morning shot out the window in my workshop from my reloading bench looking up the canyon.

The last is from the top of French mountian outside of Pierce Idaho looking at the Rocky mountians deviding Idaho from Montana.

Agree with most everything Ozark said, but I am glad he clarified about the post applying to deer! :) Elk, even when hit in the right spot with a good bullet from an appropriate caliber, will often require some tracking. THey only rarely seem to go right down.

Anyway, we all agree that shot placement is key. I do want to say that I personally don't trust the neck shot. I know a bunch of people have success with it, but not me. I shot a mulie doe in the neck one time and, much to my surprise, she took off like a rocket. Since this was open prairie country, I was able to get another shot off that got the lungs. When I skinned her out, that first shot had gone right in front of the spine and mangled the windpipe. It looked to be a perfect shot from the outside, but I was unable to tell exactly where the spine was. I hate to think what that deer's death would have been like if I had not got the second shot off. No more neck shots for me!

Due to age and lack of strength I am restricted to using a crossbow. It took me sometime to find the bolt and broadhead combination to gain the confidence required for me to take a deer with it. In my state a scope is legal and I limit my shots to 30 yards or less. Like yourself, I have not yet lost a deer using it but only one was anchored in its tracks. Most run for a few yards in a semicircle before falling. The most difficult hunting skill to learn is that one that permits us to wait until it is time to make the shot. Obviously you have learned that one. My intent and hopes in the original post was to impress upon the developing hunter that you cannot buy a weapon that kills because of speed, power or marketing hype. The best hunting rifle in the world is the one that is held by the hunter who knows where to place the projectile and has the skill to send it there. Your reply made me feel good. Thank you.

We must all learn from our mistakes. Although bullet selection and placement are both crucial in the humane taking of game animals, we must not overlook the third and most important factor in the equation, the shooter.

A young man once asked me what my key to accurate shooting was and I had to think about it for awhile. My answer? Trigger time. Any time spent shooting should be a learning experience. Since I was old enough to shoot a .22 I was unknowingly, teaching myself the mechanics of better shooting. Granted I had, in my opinion, the finest shooting instructor there ever was, my Dad, to get me started off on the right foot.

I went through I don't know how many thousands of .22 shells in my Remington Nylon 11 shooting gophers, cans, paper, anything for an excuse to shoot. Did I waste any ammunition? Thinking back on it, probably not. But I did alot of experimenting.

I learned the importance of a good rest, how to shoot standing, sitting, knealing, prone and with the wrong hand. Never know when you might have to shoot with the "wrong" hand.

I thought I had it all figured out, until one day when I came home from school and grabbed my rifle out of the gun cabinet. In shock and awe I discovered it had magically grown a Bushnell Banner 4 power scope!! What an addition this was! I could easily see the the exact spot where I wanted the bullet to go. I soon learned about bullet drop and how to compensate for it. Now I could make those real long shots I heard Dad and hunting partners talking about!! Well I was soon humbled and to say the least saddened. While shooting gophers I kept trying the long shots and it wasn't long before I gut shot one. He was running between holes and I led him "just right". Wrong!! I must have shot at that gopher 10 times before I calmed down enough and got closer so I could shoot it in the head.

As a hunter and shooter you should know your gun, your ammo and most of all your abbilities. 99.999999% of all misses or wounding shots are not the gun's fault. The gun did exactly what it was told to do. We owe it to ourselves and to the game we hunt to be as good a shooter as we can be. Practice should not be limited to taking your hunting rifle out 2-3 days before the season and making sure it still can hit what you aim at. "Well, if I can hit a milk jug full of water at 100 yards I can kill a deer" Yes you probably can but can you hit that milk jug at 200 or even 300 yards? How about 50 yards?

Thanks Pop, for your patience, understanding and persaverence. Thanks for teaching me the ways of the hunter so I can share them with others.

Here's the man responsible for making me the recoil junky.

alyeska338, had you known what your 8mm bullet would do on a lung shot, would you have re-considered and went for the neck, shoulder or head?


To be honest, I would have probably used some factory 8mm Mag ammo with the 185 grain bullet or handloaded the 185's. However, if I had to use the same bullet on the 100 lb whitetail, I would have probably took shoulder joint shot, doing my best to hit bone. IIRC, she was standing broadside looking toward me (not exactly at me) so the neck shot wasn't a choice. Shooting those big 250 grain bullets, I don't think the bullet ever expanded.

To be honest, I would have probably used some factory 8mm Mag ammo with the 185 grain bullet or handloaded the 185's. However, if I had to use the same bullet on the 100 lb whitetail, I would have probably took shoulder joint shot, doing my best to hit bone. IIRC, she was standing broadside looking toward me (not exactly at me) so the neck shot wasn't a choice. Shooting those big 250 grain bullets, I don't think the bullet ever expanded.

Like IDshooter said about elk, they are tough animals. I used to do the heart lung thing, but after digging a few out of places that would make a flea sick to it's stomach I now shoot the front shoulders.

Once broke down that way elk usually only make it as far as momentum will carry them. Your absolutly right about the 185 grainer for deer. I've been lucky with that 220 grain sierra as it seems to perform well both on deer and elk. I've been using that same bullet since 1978. It is devistating on deer as close as 30 yards and out to as far as I can shoot. My limit now is 300 or under as my eyesight is getting worse. To tell the truth I've never used another bullet in that rifle and it's never seen anything but hand loads.

I found that big 220 worked well on bear up where you live and moose also. I stuck with shoulder shots on them also. I never wanted to give a brown the chance or ability to go anywhere after it was shot.

I've heard all the pros and cons of anchoring them quickly ie, neck shot, head shot. Now when given a target like the north american whitetailed deer, your kill zone on that animal is widely varied. Rule #1 take the best shot available to anchor your game. Put a round through both lungs and or heart and it will kill quickly. Shoot both lungs out, 30-40 yds, take out the heart I've had a large buck go 50yds run into a tree leave blood all over it, get up and run another 75yds. Tracking it, you would have to be Ray Charles not to find it with that blood trail. I've taken head, neck and heart lung shots on a few and come to one conclusion, shoot for the kill zone heart and lungs. Ideal rifle, there is one, the one that suits you, none other.

I've heard all the pros and cons of anchoring them quickly ie, neck shot, head shot. Now when given a target like the north american whitetailed deer, your kill zone on that animal is widely varied. Rule #1 take the best shot available to anchor your game. Put a round through both lungs and or heart and it will kill quickly. Shoot both lungs out, 30-40 yds, take out the heart I've had a large buck go 50yds run into a tree leave blood all over it, get up and run another 75yds. Tracking it, you would have to be Ray Charles not to find it with that blood trail. I've taken head, neck and heart lung shots on a few and come to one conclusion, shoot for the kill zone heart and lungs. Ideal rifle, there is one, the one that suits you, none other.

No argument here. But a larger question is how can we teach the younger hunters how to control anxiety (buck fever) and take the correct aim and mash that trigger until recoil begins. I have taken many deer but it is always a great experience to see the animal fold and know that I have done my job. Isn't it surprising so few heart attacks are experienced in the deer woods???

Hello all, gald to be posting again. Ozark, I'm originally from Arkasas myself. I was born and raised in Newport. I agree with pretty much everything that I have read. Shot placement IS the KEY factor but obviously not the only one. I can proudly say that I have never had to track any animal I've ever hunted. I hope that that doesn't sound like bragging because I certainly don't want it too. The fact comes from letting a fair share of animals walk if I wasn't absolutely 100% sure about the shot. As for teaching the next generation of hunters WE have to teach them. It has been proven that visual recognition is the best teaching tool of any form of instruction so we must be the example and get out in the woods with the young(er) ones and let them view us. see how we handle ourselves. I take pride in the fact that I teach my two daughters as much as I can about having respect for God's wonderful creation and not doing anything to harm or destroy nature. I teach them to kill only what will be eaten, except in self defense of course, and leave where they have been as clean or cleaner than when they found it.
Oops, I'm getting on the soap box. I better get down. Ya'll have a good evnin'.

Ozark I agree with you on shot placement .I also agree with the other folk on the big critters.I shot a moose at about 70yrds 1/3 of way up behind the the shoulder.He turned broadside I pop himagain on the other side.He walked off like nothing happen,I wonder if I hit him at all ,so i sat and waited for him to bed down.when i tracked him he was about 40yrds from where I shot him then had to finish him off.When I dressed him both lungs where completely destroyed ,I hit exactly where I was aiming at.Know your quarry habbit ,know how shoot and know to track thats half the battle.I enjoyed your article thanks

True, I cannot dispute a word. Isn't it great to know that we are hitting precisely where we aim. That is the mark of.....Well, Marksman/Hunter

Ozarkwhittler, You have to teach them to shoot and get them to practice all the time, then when your heart is beating fast and hard all that practice comes into play instinctively. Sure I have had buck fever and hope it never stops I have learned to overcome this and lot of other problems with getting the bullet to do it's job. The best thing I've ever done was cut out deer sized cardboard cutouts and put them up at 100yds, and ask people at the range to put a round into it offhand. Quite a few would not try it unless they supported themselves in some way. Many would shoot and I was surprised by many as to how good a shot they were. Many were surprised as to how lousy they were, without a rest of some kind. This is the best training aide I know of, it works and makes most hunters aware that they must use something to help theirselves, become better shots. Nothing makes me despair as much as a new hunter, new rifle and scope and sighting in the day before, after banging away 10-15 times they are zeroed in with a boiling hot bbl, and a sore shoulder they are ready to go out and wound something and that saddens me. Most often when I see the above scenario, I do my best to advise and help, sometimes to no avail, but most often they accept my help and I feel better. Not so much for myself but for their quarry.

Good reply Swany, Having spent eleven years in different U.S. Army Marksmanship units I learned that accurate shooting requires applying sound fundamentals, practice and self pride. With these we simply do not permit ourselves to fire until our aim and target is correct. Just today A friend and I were chatting in my deer hunting shack and out at 170 yards a group of deer appeared. I selected the largest legal deer and double checked the crosshairs and mashed the accu-trigger on my Savage 243. It was a perfectly executed shot. Had I been on the competative shooting range I would have seen the pit crew mark a perfect shot in the V ring. Pride does not allow me to chance wounding or missing. How do you teach P R I D E ?