Read this a few days ago and just thought I would pass it on. Could be we will make throwing knives legal next.

Pa. May Let Hunters Use Ancient Weapon

By MARK SCOLFORO, Associated Press Writer Fri Nov 18, 4:54 AM ET

HARRISBURG, Pa. - An ancient weapon that was apparently used as early as prehistoric times to slay woolly mammoths may soon be added to the arsenals of Pennsylvania hunters.

The state Game Commission is drafting proposed regulations to allow hunters to use the atlatl, a small wooden device that propels a six-foot dart as fast as 80 mph. The commission could vote in January and make a final decision in April, officials said.

It's not yet clear which animals would be hunted, but the proposal has the support of people who want to kill deer with the handmade weapon of Stone Age design

"For me, it would be a thrill to have a deer get up close enough and to throw my dart and hit the deer, bag it like my ancestors did," said Jack Rowe, 45, a veteran hunter and atlatl enthusiast from Sayre.

In Alabama, one of a handful of states that allows atlatls for hunting or fishing, few hunters use them during deer season, said Allan Andress, chief fish and game enforcement officer for the state Department of Conservation and Natural Resources.

Even spear hunters — Alabama game law also allows spears — outnumber those using atlatls.

"As you might imagine, it's not something that most people have the skill or the patience for," Andress said.
Pennsylvania Atlatl Association president Gary L. Fogelman, who got the atlatl bug about 20 years ago, said he doubts large numbers of deer will ever be killed with the weapon.

"You've got to know what you're doing, you've got to be good with all the outdoor skills in order to be able to score with this thing," said Fogelman, who publishes Indian Artifact Magazine.

To use an atlatl — the name is derived from an Aztec word for "throwing board" — hunters hook arrow like hunting darts into the end of the weapon, which is generally a wooden piece about 2 feet long. The leverage of the atlatl allows them to throw the 5- to 8-foot darts much farther than they could throw a spear.

At BPS Engineering in Manhattan, Mont., a leading manufacturer of atlatls, owner Bob Perkins said customers pay $140 for a 2-foot maple production-line model, the Warrior, and a set of five 5 1/2-foot aluminum darts.
Perkins has killed two deer with atlatls and recently killed his first buffalo.

"Atlatls were the first true weapon system developed by the human race," he said. "Comparatively speaking, the bow and arrow was a recent development in projectile technology."

There is evidence the weapons were used more than 8,000 years ago in Pennsylvania, said Kurt Carr, an archaeologist with the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission.

Prehistoric atlatls have a distinctive counterweight feature called a winged banner stone that has helped confirm their existence. Atlatl use goes back far as 12,000 years elsewhere in North America and far longer in Europe.
"It takes some practice, but it's like the bow and arrow. I can't shoot a bow and arrow for beans, but I can use an atlatl more effectively," he said.

The World Atlatl Association, which has 380 members, has held an annual accuracy contest since the mid-1990s, and this year more than 2,000 people participated.

"People that are interested in archaeology and ancient history are the ones that seem to be drawn to it," said association president Richard B. Lyons, a retired firefighter from Jeffersonville, Ind.

Game Commissioner Roxane Palone, who generally supports legalization of atlatl hunting, said some other game commissioners probably will join her in voting in favor of its use.

"It's a good way to expand hunting opportunities," she said. "I don't think it's any more unusual than people who use long bows to hunt."

Hmmm, I think I'll stick to my centerfires for now! Interesting though.

Sounds like a Woomerah. The locals were useing them till not long ago here.

Hmmm, I think I'll stick to my centerfires for now! Interesting though.
HAHA me too.

**** ! I have been using my TEETH for years for hunting ! Who needs Sharp Sticks when you have Sharp TEETH ? I wonder if i have to buy a TEETH permit ? JAGG

There happens to be an Atal and 3 darts sitting in the corner next to this computer. Have hunted with it but have yet to score a kill. My range is some what limited to about 15 yds.
I have seen pictures of hogs killed with darts but have not heard of anyone killing a deer with them.

The PA Game commission will do anything to make a dime. They have forgotten who pays their bills and now they are facing a rapidly declining deer herd and falling license sales to match, they think the answer is to raise license sales, not realizing that that will further hurt sales. If they stop trying to kill all the doe, and have buck only season for a year or two, the herd will come back and the hunters will to. The game commission is also pushing an archery bear season, ought to be interesting in a state that is primarily hunted by driving and baiting is illegal, anyways off of my soapbox

It doesn't matter to me what the weapon of choice is. Just get rid of the special seasons for these archaic devices..and that includes muzzleloaders.

Why can't centerfire rifle guys hunt the rut in WA state? If you want to hunt the rut now you gotta bow hunt or muzzleload...and soon maybe carry a spear.

To each his own and no special deals!

It doesn't matter to me what the weapon of choice is. Just get rid of the special seasons for these archaic devices..and that includes muzzleloaders.

Why can't centerfire rifle guys hunt the rut in WA state? If you want to hunt the rut now you gotta bow hunt or muzzleload...and soon maybe carry a spear.

To each his own and no special deals!

Yup, I know what you mean. Seems like game management sometimes works from out of the mars termanal. In Idaho they now have broken up our muzzle loader season to differate between the inline and side hammer guns.

jb12string is right, anything for money. The PGC will probably give them a very long season for their $10-15 license. Probably in a few years, when I can't get up the hills because of wheezing, they'll have a blow-gun season too.

This morning I took a walk to exercise the dog. We went two miles into a state forest, on fresh snow, and I only saw 4 sets of deer tracks. This is public land and the deer have been hammered there and still they issue too many antlerless permits.

I feel very sorry for the next generation of deer hunters in PA. Antler restrictions are producing bigger racks but in a few years these bucks will be leaving the state in search of does during the rut.

It doesn't matter to me what the weapon of choice is. Just get rid of the special seasons for these archaic devices..and that includes muzzleloaders.

Why can't centerfire rifle guys hunt the rut in WA state? If you want to hunt the rut now you gotta bow hunt or muzzleload...and soon maybe carry a spear.

To each his own and no special deals!


I'm with you on this as well. When I started deer hunting over 20 years ago, archery season was Oct 1st to Nov 5th. Then a quiet period until Nov 15th, firearms season. You could only take one buck.

Now we have the youth hunt in September (firearm), archery season goes Oct 1st - Nov 14th and then Dec 1st to Jan 1st. The muzzleloading season is depending on the zone you are in, up to 17 days in December. Now once the hunting starts in Sept, it's on until January when the seasons are all over.

I'd really like to see them go back to ending archery season Nov 5th and giving us some quiet time (and let up on any hunting pressure) until Nov 15th. That 10-day quiet time made a big difference and I believe the firearms hunters were much more successful in tagging a buck. Now it seems the better bucks are being bagged in archery season due to the long seasons and getting to hunt the rut. Big advantage when you're after mature bucks.

All the nice bucks we were seeing at my dads were taken during archery season including a 12-pt, several 10's and a number of 6-8 pts. You'd think that since the largest license revenues are by firearm deer hunters, there'd be more fairness for them and their season. And they wonder why they're losing hunters... :confused:

As sad as I am to say it, PA still has a high percentage of poachers. It doesn't help us at all. Especially, when you have pressure in the mountains from Sept to Feb.

It doesn't matter to me what the weapon of choice is. Just get rid of the special seasons for these archaic devices..and that includes muzzleloaders.

I think the problem has become that these devices, particularly archery, are not so archaic anymore. The bow from 20 years ago is not the same as the bow of today, yet seasons seem to be expanding for them.

I don't have any problem in hunting with a centerfire outside of the rut, but seasons for the other weapons should be adjusted to the technology improvements.

I think the problem has become that these devices, particularly archery, are not so archaic anymore. The bow from 20 years ago is not the same as the bow of today, yet seasons seem to be expanding for them.

I don't have any problem in hunting with a centerfire outside of the rut, but seasons for the other weapons should be adjusted to the technology improvements.

No. The problem is not the means, but the careful management of the resource. Folks.... you can't do that at the state level. It's just not as cut and dried as people make it. This is well beyond issuing doe tags.

Good grief..... we have a deer season between 3 and 4 months long here in Texas, very little exemptions between the different weapons (bow hunters first, then gun hunters for the majority of the season), and we're neck-deep in deer in this state. You'd think we have shot the last one long ago, but it's jus the opposite. Every landowner I know needs to take more does off of the property to keep it under control.

You just can't implement regulations at the state level and expect this to work. At the very least, limits have to be set by county, and it helps a lot more to give landowners recommendations on how many deer to take per acre.

Of course the key is 'landowner' - which isn't going to work for public land, unless access is controlled. I'm sure that would start a firestorm of protest to cut off access to public land, not that I wouldn't join the protesters if I hunted public land exclusively. Actually, many public land hunts here are by drawing, so the number of hunters can be matched to the situation.

The other thing is, habitat management - folks, you can't believe the difference quality habitat makes. But that takes money and private ownership, mostly. Fawn survial rates are just utterly critical to next year's crop, more so than then last year's kill. You'd be surprised how many people can't figure that out.

Pennsylvania's deer problems do not condem deer management in general.... they just point out that it is an enormously complicated thing, requiring everyone's cooperation.

I am not against deer management as long as it is done well, and pennsylvania does allocate doe tags based on WMU's (they used to go by county) the thing that miffs me is that there has been a serious decline in herd size and they turn a blind eye to it and expect the hunters to believe what ever they tell us, whether its that we aren't going deep enough too find the deer or whatever, you just can't find deer like you used to, I can remember spotlighting deer in the spring and seeing at least 50 deer cross right in front of the truck just at one spot, I went spotting saturday night before the season opened and I didn't see a single deer and other times during the year we were luck if we saw 15. there are still areas of the state that have deer, Near Philadelphia there are tons, how ever, that is suburbia and you can't hunt it. I have heard that there are a tremendous amount of roadkill in washington county on I-70, that leads me to belive there are still deer there, but from everything else I have seen and heard, its slim pickings. I realize fawn survival rates are important, the problem here is that most of the fawns aren't surviving the rifle season before they are born.

MikeG,
I agree, many more factors to consider than the hot-button ones of the day. I guess my point (that I didn't make very well) was that I see many more trophy animals being taken with archery - in particular - than in the past because of the quantum leap the technology has taken (at least that's my opinion). That's good or bad, depending on the weapon you use.

I'd hate to be a game manager these days with all the factions (hunters with different weapons, political, anti-hunting, etc.) and trying to strike some balance. I think our Idaho Fish and Game has done a decent job of this so far.

MikeG,
You are correct in much of what you say and I agree however the regulations even at the county (or DMU) size may not work. It may even have to be by township. An example is we used to hunt public land in a county that also had a lot of private land. This was farmland and so x amount of doe permits are alloted for that area. The problem is that all the deer were in the private land, not the public and they were issuing doe permits based on this, even though there were very few deer on the public land...they were all shot off. I hunted that public land for four years without seeing a deer. I'd see sign now and then but no deer. And much of this falls to the hunters. If you are not seeing deer on public land DO NOT shoot the does if you do see one. If you do, then I don't want to hear you complain of not seeing deer. So if the county (or DMU) is mixed than smaller adjustments need to be made for them.

Pennsylvania's problems with that type of management...well in a nutshell, QDM is much more than antler restrictions and I really don't think you can do it on that level with so much public and private land involved. Too many different views, variables, and hunters who may not get the time to hunt more than a few days and if they want venison, they have to take what they can get. You can't manage that.

I'm not against archery hunters but when I grew up and began hunting with my dad, he used a recurve. No sights, no rangefinder, no release, no nothing they have today. And he hunted on the ground. I think a 30 yard shot was close to max range. Now the compounds...my brother has a friend who shot a deer at 80 yards and his brother practices on a 100 yard target. I told him how stupid they were. I agree it needs to be adjusted as archery season is 76 days long here and with the archery technology the way it is and when it is, well that's why were seeing more of the bigger bucks getting tagged by the archery hunters.

What's next, poison darts in blow guns. I have the blow guns and am accurate out to ten yards.

Figure I can climb a tree and wait til the deer walks under me, use the blow gun with poison dart, wait ten minutes and recover my animal.

The darts can be reused so the hunting expense is cheap. The noise is non-existant so nobody can complain. The dart travels for a short distance so safety would not be an issue.

I think I'll propose this idea to the PA GAME COMMISSION, what do you think?

If it involves an extra permit, they'll bite