Ok, so I did a military match with my mosin nagant and I could consistently stay in the black using a SR-21 target at 100 yards. I can only do at best about a 4-5" group consistently. It's okay, but there's another guy that does 1" groups. What's he doing right? I want to achieve the same grouping. Suggestions please.

JudgeRoyBean

Ok, so I did a military match with my mosin nagant and I could consistently stay in the black using a SR-21 target at 100 yards. I can only do at best about a 4-5" group consistently. It's okay, but there's another guy that does 1" groups. What's he doing right? I want to achieve the same grouping. Suggestions please.

JudgeRoyBean

May be possible...but have you see him shoot 1" groups?...the eaiset way to get 1" groups is to lie about it (or shoot 10 shots and only measure the three lucky ones that landed withint an inch of eachother). the second easiest way is to shoot a bunch of 3 shot groups and rely on luck (and the old bell curve) to supply ne or two groups of about an inch (and ignore the ones of 2" and 4").

And he's doing this with the open iron an an issue rifle..and doing it consistantly?

Where do you shoot? I belong to Try City, just across the river from Norman. The last MBABR match had a winning group of 1.649 inches. On occasion, you will see a group right at an inch.

It might be what you are shooting against.....the Swedes in 6.5 X 55 do very well in these matches.

Why they don't outlaw that caliber is a mystery to me. 6.5.....if it wasn't good enough to give it a whole number all by itsself, why bother.


(Disregard the last part of this post JudgeRoy, it's aimed at kdub)

Well............

I have a MN91/30 that has a pretty good scope mounted on it.

With handloads using the .311" dia Sierra 173 gr HPBT Match bullet, I can usually group a 1.25 MOA. Like ribbonstone, I'd have to watch the guy getting MOA groups using iron sights and military surplus ammo.

Bring 10 rounds of ammo to the bench and decide how to shoot it: 1 ten round group, two fives, or make it easier and shoot three three-rounders. No sighters, no "whoops", no fliers, and no excuses.

Are rifles that will pass this 1MOA test, but darned few shooters.

Truth of the matter is that that some shooters can get nearly everything a rifle has to offer out of it (can get 1" groups from a rifle that can do no better than that from a machine rest) and some shooters that can't (can get 2" groups from a rifle that gets 1/4" groups from a machine rest). Some people can crontrol a heavy two-stage military type trigger and some can't.

The question is definately an apples to oranges type...without knowing the other guy's rifle, it's possible that getting a 4" group out of a military rifle only capable of 3" from a machine rest showes the shooter has better technique than a guy who can get 1" goups from a 1/4" custom rifle.

Judge welcome the forum, that question often plagued me in the past when I was shooting benchrest, "What's he doing I'm not to get them groups?" Simple go ask him. I've taken military rifles of questionable quality and made some real shooters out of them. I did not come easy, most often they really came into their own when I done a little mechanical work on the triggers and some bedding, recrowned the bbl etc. When I was in the army M-14s on the qualifing range in basic training we were hitting man sized torso targets at 700 meters very consistantly with training weapons and military ball non match grade.

Where do you shoot? I belong to Try City, just across the river from Norman. The last MBABR match had a winning group of 1.649 inches. On occasion, you will see a group right at an inch.

It might be what you are shooting against.....the Swedes in 6.5 X 55 do very well in these matches.

Why they don't outlaw that caliber is a mystery to me. 6.5.....if it wasn't good enough to give it a whole number all by itsself, why bother.


(Disregard the last part of this post JudgeRoy, it's aimed at kdub)

Jelousy will get you nowhere. When I was shooting match grade 30-06's and being outshot by Swedes, I decided to get one. End result is now I have four that will outshoot my 30-06. Of course they have had action work and bedding done on them and use bore filling bullets. Shot a 1" group one time. (CND) = Can Not Duplicate. Just shows that the rifles are more accurate than I am. I used to laugh at anything other than a good 30-06, now I have to vie with kdub to find a Swede first.

Lee L.

I figure a little bad publicity about the 6.5 won't hurt. We need to drive the prices down. As more people find out how good the Swedes shoot, the prices keep getting higher.

kdub is not going to help us. He just smiles and plays with the ones he has in his vault.

I figure a little bad publicity about the 6.5 won't hurt. We need to drive the prices down. As more people find out how good the Swedes shoot, the prices keep getting higher.

kdub is not going to help us. He just smiles and plays with the ones he has in his vault.


Freind of mine was waiting..and waiting...for his Garand to come back from the shop. So he bought a 6.5Swede (full length rifle) and I put an old Lyman reciever sight on it so he could practice. Did make a reasonable replica of a garnad front sight for the rifle, so his practice would have some corss-over value. Know he didn't do anything besides clean the cosmoline off.

He never was happy with that Garand when it did show up. Shot good, but he'd been "spoiled" by a $100 rifle.

Hi Neighbor,

He wasn't quite 1" consistent, but he got 9 bulls. I'm the 5.073 second grouping. Maybe I'll get to see you sometime. Anyhow, it was my first match with a Mosin. I'd shot 22's a lot but nothing much bigger on a regular basis. I had a blast, but I was trying hard and couldn't believe this guy.

Here's the score link (the date's wrong, but it was January 7)

http://www.okcgunclub.org/military/mb/match17.htm

JudgeRoyBean

Where do you shoot? I belong to Try City, just across the river from Norman. The last MBABR match had a winning group of 1.649 inches. On occasion, you will see a group right at an inch.

It might be what you are shooting against.....the Swedes in 6.5 X 55 do very well in these matches.

Why they don't outlaw that caliber is a mystery to me. 6.5.....if it wasn't good enough to give it a whole number all by itsself, why bother.


(Disregard the last part of this post JudgeRoy, it's aimed at kdub)

Good to have a neighbor here. You shoot at Arcadia? I wish we had the distance of that range.

Was your match just for Mosins? As far as I know, ours are open to any military center fire bolt action. As you may have guessed from my post, the Swedes are favored by many for their accuracy.

You had a blast and that's the important thing besides, you did very good starting out. Give that old barrel the best scrubing it's probably ever had and see if it helps. Of course, a little practice is going to improve you as well.

I think someone mentioned this but talk to your fellow shooters. Most are happy to help. Guess I should also mention, there are some salty old shooters right here at this forum.

You didn't say if you were shooting surp ammo or hand loads, or at least I didn't see it anyway.

I've got a few 91/30's and couple m-38's & M-44's. All depends on the quality of the barrel and the fit of the action. Best shooter I have is a 91/30 made in the Izhevsk plant in 1937. Super deal I picked up from a private seller in what appeared to be fair condition...till I cleaned all the cosmoline and many years of dirt off it to reveal it in what looked like un-issued condition except for handling marks. This one likes the Hungarian yel/sil tip ammo from the 1970's and will readily produce 1-1.25" 100yd groups with it. When I feed it handloads, it'll go sub MOA anytime you want it to. All the others are in various conditions of used and will not readily produce groups under 1.5" @ 100 and the norm is about 1.75 The one 91/30 had a really corroded bore but I was able to get a brand new barrel & bolt for it and had both fitted by an excellent gunsmith who also worked the trigger. No longer a matched number as-built model but this one will shoot sub MOA with handloads, have not put any surp ammo through it at all, only jacketed soft points and cast. For cast I use the Lee CTL312-160 for paper and a custom 205gr FN for hunting. Jaceted I use the 180gr Speer RN's.

Mark:

That's quite strange because the ammo from Brigadoons in Midwest city shot the best. It's copper washed surplus with yellow paint just on the tip. It's wrapped in wax paper and was really cheap. Anything else is all over the place. Also, the gun needs a warmer shot every round. The very first shot is wild.

Anyhow, I wish I tried one of these a long time ago. I really like it just like it is. I removed the shellac and did about 20 good tung oil coats, steel wooled extra fine the last one. All the metal was in great shape for a gun made in 1942 Itzevik (or something like that) ... the marking.

JudgeRoyBean

You didn't say if you were shooting surp ammo or hand loads, or at least I didn't see it anyway.

I've got a few 91/30's and couple m-38's & M-44's. All depends on the quality of the barrel and the fit of the action. Best shooter I have is a 91/30 made in the Izhevsk plant in 1937. Super deal I picked up from a private seller in what appeared to be fair condition...till I cleaned all the cosmoline and many years of dirt off it to reveal it in what looked like un-issued condition except for handling marks. This one likes the Hungarian yel/sil tip ammo from the 1970's and will readily produce 1-1.25" 100yd groups with it. When I feed it handloads, it'll go sub MOA anytime you want it to. All the others are in various conditions of used and will not readily produce groups under 1.5" @ 100 and the norm is about 1.75 The one 91/30 had a really corroded bore but I was able to get a brand new barrel & bolt for it and had both fitted by an excellent gunsmith who also worked the trigger. No longer a matched number as-built model but this one will shoot sub MOA with handloads, have not put any surp ammo through it at all, only jacketed soft points and cast. For cast I use the Lee CTL312-160 for paper and a custom 205gr FN for hunting. Jaceted I use the 180gr Speer RN's.

Yes, this match was for Mosins only. The next match is in February and is bolt action military general. We won a trip to Disneyworld from Mathis Brothers and we're going to Florida in March, but there are matches at Tri City as well. I'll look at the calendar and see when I'm coming to Norman.

:-)

JudgeRoyBean

Good to have a neighbor here. You shoot at Arcadia? I wish we had the distance of that range.

Was your match just for Mosins? As far as I know, ours are open to any military center fire bolt action. As you may have guessed from my post, the Swedes are favored by many for their accuracy.

You had a blast and that's the important thing besides, you did very good starting out. Give that old barrel the best scrubing it's probably ever had and see if it helps. Of course, a little practice is going to improve you as well.

I think someone mentioned this but talk to your fellow shooters. Most are happy to help. Guess I should also mention, there are some salty old shooters right here at this forum.

February 11, 10:00 am. Maybe? Ours in the 4th, the saturday before. I'll beg the bride, maybe she'll let me go.

JudgeRoyBean

Yes, this match was for Mosins only. The next match is in February and is bolt action military general. We won a trip to Disneyworld from Mathis Brothers and we're going to Florida in March, but there are matches at Tri City as well. I'll look at the calendar and see when I'm coming to Norman.

:-)

JudgeRoyBean

Yellow tip means it's a heavy bullet I think it covers the 174-186gr range but don't recall for sure off hand. Silver means match ammo. Yel/Sil tip is heavy match and just silver is light weight (139-152gr ?) match. No color is plain ball and I forget the rest off hand but a quick search of "7.62x54R color codes" will get to some lists quickly. There are some variations from list to list as to what are high pressure proof and so forth so I cross reference headstamps anytime something does not jive. Got some machinegun ammo a few years ago, came pulled from the belts and tossed loose in a 30cal ammo cans, paid $55 total for 1350 rounds. They was no color on the tips but I pulled one and weighed the bullet at 186gr and there was a definite increase in recoil and report with these. Bullets are copper washed with an extremely thin steel jacket and a very soft lead core. Groups average 2" @ 100yds. Made a jig to hold the rounds, use a file to trim .135" off the tip exposing the lead core, they expand quite nicely and it doesn't seem to affect accuracy at all. Haven't taken any game with these yet but they perform about the same as the jacketed RN's.

BTW, forgot to state in the first reply that most of the used ones required some tuning to reduce group sizes. Nothing major just minor things like, good cleaning of the bore, re-crowns, stock adjustments, ect.

It may have to do with the stock bedding in the receiver area or in the barrel area ! Shoot off the bench and only fire one shot then wait 5 minutes to shoot another shot etc. . After 5 or 10 shots have been fired this way and the groups are small then it is in the stock beding ! If groups are large then the barrel is bad somewhere ! JAGG

Your date is correct for Tri City. Feb 11th at 10am, Winter Wars. The next MBABR matches are March 11th at 8:30am and April 1st at 8:30am.

Just discovered this forum through the Beartooth Bullets site and thought I would log on and greet you.

Judgeroybean and Lumberjak, I too am in the OKC area and do my milsurp wheeling and dealing with Mark at Brigadoons. I am joining the OKC gun club so I can shoot in the military bolt action competitions. Will be looking forward to shooting with the two of you and others!

Glad another Okie found this place. I don't shoot at Okc Gun Club but I am a member of Tri City. I live in Moore so Tri City is closer for me. I don't shoot in the Mil bolt matches (I don't currently have a legal rifle) but am slightly guilty by association, a friend of mine does compete. If you're new to the sport, be prepared for some serious competition. These guys know and use every trick in the book. My friend is currently preparing for the Winter War Mosin match. He is pulling mil surp bullets, weighing them, adjusting the powder charge and working on test loads.

You mentioned Brigadoons, how is their inventory of old bolt rifles these days? Did you see any good deals?

Keep this quiet.....just between you and me, but I'm in the market for a 6.5 X 55 Swede.

(Heh, Heh, Heh!)

Too late, o slayer of the Oklahoma redwood forests!

Think I've corraled the market on them! 'Course, at the right price.....................................:D

(Heh, Heh, Heh!)

Too late, o slayer of the Oklahoma redwood forests!

Think I've corraled the market on them! 'Course, at the right price.....................................:D

Wrong! I still have 2 M96's 1 M94 and 2 M38's, and a couple 94's I made into custom Manlicher style sporters. The 2 sporters came in as junkers. one was even drilled and tapped for side mounts of some sort. The drilled one came in as an action only, $15.00. At the time Gun Parts had a number of new barrels in 6.5X55 real reasonable. Youngest Grandson gets his pick of the lot this year.

Remember, he who dies with the most Swedes wins.

Lee L.

(Heh, Heh, Heh!)

Too late, o slayer of the Oklahoma redwood forests!

Think I've corraled the market on them! 'Course, at the right price.....................................:D


You're from Hobbs...and I was born in Tulia Texas....that makes us probably related. Think of me as a younger nephew....much younger....think how nice it would be to send your nephew one of them old junky Swedes...free of charge.....c'mon uncle kdub....excuse me, that would Saint kdub.

lumberjak,

Mark got in 10 K31's a couple of weeks ago, I got the pick of the litter and he has the rest on the shelf. Lately it seems that he making a shift to the high capacity semi-autos that a lot of guys want. Still has an assortment of Turk Mausers, a couple of Yugo 24/47s, some Yugo M48s, a few Czech 98ks and of course his mainstay: Mosin Nagants. I picked up an altered Finn 91/30 Puolastaslaitos about three weeks ago. Someone had chopped the last 4-5" inches off the barrel and cut up the stock. I had a spare 91/30 stock laying around, so I cut it down to match the barrel. Looks like a 91/30 that someone left out in the rain and shrunk. Not quite as long as a 91/30, but not as short as a 91/59. It is really quite a shooter.

I haven't ruled out joining Tri-City instead of OKC gun club, from my house it is just about equal distance, but I can jump on I35 and be at Tri-City a little bit faster. I'm just looking for a good range where I can shoot a variety of distances out to 200 yards or a little longer. Maybe I'll see you at Tri-City.

By the way, as far as preparing for military bolt action shoots, I roll my own so I am VERY familiar with pulling FMJ, weighing powder and bullets to get uniformity. Getting started in the sport I would just like to get out and enjoy the atmosphere and camraderie for awhile.

I've been a member of Tri City for over 20 years. It's a nice range. 200 meter rifle range with burms at 50, 100 and 150 meters. A combination plinking and short range of 80 yards. A shotgun range and a bow range. You can shoot handguns at a few feet at the plinking range or practice on silhouette targets out to the ram at 200 yards on the long range. It's nothing fancy but all shooting positions are covered and the benches are fair. If you join up, let me know. I bet we run into each other. I shoot as often as time and weather permit....maybe I should say wind less than 40 miles per hour.

lumberjak,

Joined the OKC gun club because it is just a little bit closer to my house. Was up there Saturday for indoctrination and then went over to the Benchrest range and caught the last two rounds of the military bolt action match...Jimmeny Christmas, were there some great shooters there or what. I will definitely be on the receiving end of some BK's before I EVER get close to their level. It's all about having fun and shooting some lead down range...so what the heck, I'm going to enjoy it! Perhaps we'll see each other in club shoots.

Familiarity with one's rifle makes all the difference. I imagine that the individual who did the tight groups...and in fact the guy who won the match...has literally put thousands of rounds through his rifle. So, shooting it consistently (consistent hold, consistent cheek weld, consistent trigger control, etc.) has likely become "second nature". Depending on the rules of the match, it is also a good possibility that he was using handloads, carefully developed for his rifle. This will make quite a difference, as well.