While working up loads for my 7mm Rem. Mag. I noticed the bullets could be pushed back further into the case by thumb pressure until they stop by hitting the powder.Crimping helps a little but they are still loose.Different brands of cases makes no diff. and not neck expanding makes no diff. They are Hornady 154 gr. Spire Points with Cannellure. I measured them and up until the can. they are .284 dia. From the can. and forward they are .282/.283 dia. They shoot good but I stopped using them and now use Sierra 160gr. SPBT. They are .284 up to the ogive which is well past the end of the case. I checked some 30 cal. 150gr. Spire Point Hornadys that I have and they are smaller in dia. forward of the can. too. and another box I have they are .308 all the way up to the ogive. Have any of you seen this? Should I contact Hornady and exchange them?Which bullet is right? The ones smaller ahead of the cannellure or same dia. ahead of the cannellure? My guess is the latter.

Most of Horndy bullets that have a cannelure of two diameter...they make them that way....the part ahead of the cannelure being a bit sub-diameter. Is't right or wrong, just a difference...your rifle will have preferences.

Don't see how that would have anything to do with bullet loosness...the part that fits inside the case is full diameter.

Unless he's loading 'em short for a magazine issue or they shoot better...then he's off a thou or two, which might make trouble in a mag on recoil.

Sounds like a die problem. Had a set of 357 dies that did not hold the bullets. Sent them back and got a different brand.

Whatever brand of resizing die you have, notify them for an exchange. Sounds like it has been bored overly large in the neck area.

Whatever brand of resizing die you have, notify them for an exchange. Sounds like it has been bored overly large in the neck area.

Either the die isn't sizing the cases nearly enough or (and this is more likely) the expander ball is a tad too large and is expanding the case necks a bit too much. How to tell? How much resistance are you getting on the down stroke after sizing ,when the expander is puling through the neck?

Brass could be a bit thin necked, either out of the box or by having been neck turned.

How many times have the cases been reloaded? Eventually they work-harden and then spring back out more when they leave the sizing die. Neck annealing would be needed then.

Another thing to try is removing the expander ball from the die and see how they seat? If the expander is too large it will also cause this symptom.

Nick

As for short seating I seated the bullets to the middle of the can. I stated that I tried not expanding the neck and different brands of cases(once fired). No luck. Case neck dia. of a loaded round is the same as factory loads. Lee RGB dies from Cabela's.Sierra's hold firm. No problem for me to stick with them. Thanks Guys.

Yup! You did say that. Getting sleepy and my eyes must have skipped that sentence.

It sounds like the die was to blame. If you still aren't completely happy with the results, Redding makes their type S dies with interchangeable neck sizing inserts in both full-length sizing and neck-size-only. Sinclair carries them, but they aren't cheap. RD77136 and RD71136, respectively for the 7mm Remington Magnum. $37.00 each. A full kit of neck inserts is $14.95 from that source. I haven't looked at other sources.

Nick

I got it figgered out. The bullets are .284 at the base. .283 at the bottom of the can. and taper on up until the ogive. At seating, the base expands the case mouth for .284 dia. and the bullet base is now below the case mouth. The smaller dia. area's of the bullet are not gripped tightly by the mouth and allow the bullet to be pushed in. I was gonna try the SST in 162 gr. but am afraid of the same problem happening. Any body have some they can measure and tell me if they're .284 all the way up to the ogive?

I reload .303 British and this happen when I ONLY neck-size the brass. The neck-sizing works perfectly and I bought a Lee factory crimp die to crimp the canelure. I'm shooting out of a Enfield #5 J/C and the rounds in the 10rnd mag will get pounded back if I leave them at "thumb" seating pressure. The Lee FCD solve my problems and lets me neck size instead of overworking the brass.

Big Mike,

Harold Vaughn points out that almost no jacketed bullets have parallel sides. They all get a pressure ring at the base of the bullet bearing area that's a little wider than the rest. Then the die makers taper them slightly toward the front so they pop out of the forming dies more easily. Lay a bullet sideways in your caliper jaws and hold them up to the light and you will see what I mean. Only solid bronze bullets get parallel sides (different process).

That said, the next question is what did you measure the diameters with? I would only trust a thimble micrometer with 0.0001" vernier (or digital) to resolve the diameters accurately. Most calipers aren't good to more than 0.002" absolute wide open, and maybe 0.001" closer in. My guess is your wide spot is actually over .284" and the middle of the bullet is about right. Be interesting if I'm wrong. The bullet maker should then get an ear full.

Nick

Nick, I use a dial caliper. I feel no need for atomicly accurate measurements when I read .284 at the base, .283 at the bottom of the can. and less at the top of the can. They are tapered backwards and no metal can grip a taper! If I had a shell with a longer neck they will work and I wouldn't be the wiser.I measured all the bullets of same and different calibers in my stock and everybody elses and even some Hornady's have straight bearing surfaces within the tolerance of my calipers. Maybe most reloaders wouldn't notice it like my friend that gave me the bullets. "I never had a problem with them" was his statement. Well, I constantly have to fix his equipment because he don't notice when the bolts come loose on his shotshell loader until the thing is in pieces in his lap. Yes, he wouldn't notice a little thing like this. Maybe some MFG's depend on this type of person to sell to and hope someone with a little bit of sense won't find out. How'd someone like to be on a once in a lifetime hunt and need a follow up shot and find the bullet in the case of his shell thus jamming the gun? I'm already looking at another bullet and if they are ok my small problem is over. Hope someone learns from this.

OK. The problem can still be the die. The brass isn't like lead, which has no spring. If you make the neck small enough, it should pull back in around the bullet by the time you get to the front.

I applied a small hole gauge to some .308 brass. New Winchester show around .3064" neck I.D. One that had been fired (twice) and resized in a Dillon carbide sizing die measured .3072" I.D. The measurements were taken at the middle of the neck. The new case's neck was about half a thousandth tighter at both its mouth and junction with the case shoulder. The resized case was uniform from the casemouth to mid-neck, but came down a thousandth at the shoulder junction. This is the start of the formation of the "dreaded donut". This case will need inside reaming before a bullet that seats past the shoulder junction is loaded.

I next pulled the decapper/expander ball and resized another case from the same lot. The neck I.D. went all the way down to .3030". Re-resizing the first case took it down to .2998", proving it won't spring back as much the second time through. You could double resize without the expander ball to see if that helps? I'm betting it won't because your die dimensions are too large.

Next I measured the carbide expander ball (actually a ring on this die). .3077". This shows the neck brass springs back a half a thousandth after it passes through, but would the front spring back if the fat end of a bullet rather than an expander ball were pushed in ahead of it and were still present holding the brass wide at the bottom?

I used my arbor press to drive the expander down into the case neck so its back edge was 2/3 of the way past the case mouth. The bulge was apparent from the side of the case. Meauring the O.D. of the case neck at the ball gave .3364". Measureing it at the case mouth gave .3355". The case neck sprang back. This neck was not turned, and slight variation in the neck thickness might be expected to account for why the inside and outside arithmetic don't quite add up (.0003" difference). However, the small hole gauges, being an indirect method, are also less accurate than the direct outside measurement with the micrometer and can allow errors this large. It may be a combination of the two? In any case, we can say the neck can be counted upone to spring back at least .0005" after the fat bullet base passes.

The above demonstrates that the case should spring back around a bullet with a slight forward taper. How slight is the issue. If it is 1/2 thousandth or less, it shouldn't cause a problem. If it is 1 thousandth or more, it will likely cause some trouble in a die with expander ball dimensions near the size of the bullet; and maybe even in a case resized in a properly dimensioned die.

In conclusion, measure the expander ball, and if it measures about the diameter of the bullet, it is like mine. If, like the bullet, finger pressure will slide it in and out of a case resized without the expander ball in place, the die dimensions are almost certainly wrong. A very springy unannealed neck is the only other cause, and that seems unlikely in two brands of case. A correct sizing die with no expander ball should take the neck O.D. down around .005" smaller than it is with a bullet seated in it. That is certainly something you can measure well enough with your caliper.

Incidentally, if I were loading tapered bullets in my .308 cases, I would modify a standard die just for reloading for that bullet. The standard die has a steel expander ball, and if it, too, is bullet diameter, you can reduce it a thousandth. Chuck it in a slow drill (drill press on low speed is easiest) and pull a narrow strip of 320 grit wet/dry paper over it shoeshine style while it turns. Stop, wipe off the grit and measure periodically until you've removed about what you want. If you want to polish it, use applications of progressively finer grades of paper, followed by a little Dico Stainless Steel grade polish on a Dremel tool bob. The stainless grade produces a good mirror finish on hardened conventional steel.

So many toys, so little time.

Nick

Thanks Nick, My expander is .2825. The dia. of the expanded mouth inside is .280. The outside is .310 at the mouth, and the middle and .312 at the neck and shoulder junction. Fired cases are .315, .315, .317 respectively. Loaded with the bullet in question the outside is the same as without a bullet. With a Sierra bullet which is .284 with no taper the outside of the neck is .3105 at the mouth, .311 at the middle and .313 at the junction again showing a taper from mouth to junction. I'm sure that with a more accurate micrometer these numbers will change by several .0001ths but my numbers show that the Sierra bullet is gripped tighter than my Hornady's because of being .284 all the way up until the ogive. No problem, I'm not going to go through a lot of work to make a tapered bullet work when I can simply change brands and all is well. If I was shooting in Olympic or other World class competition where I can win with the Hornady I'd do all I can to use them. For hunting, it's not as critical to me. I get 1/2 " groups at 100 yd with my hunting rig and either bullet so I'm satisfied with my bullet choice. I was just curious as to who noticed if they had tapered bullets by Hornady or any other brand and if it was a problem for them. I run my Sierra's through the magazine quite roughly(dummy rounds) and no problems. I tried to push them through the neck by hand pressure against the bench and they stay put (smashed the lead tip though). Maybe if I had a compressed load with the Hornady's they wouldn't push through but maybe they'd pull out from recoil? Don't matter, I'm not using them (154 gr) in my 7mm Rem Mag. and again I hope someone else can avoid future problems by reading what we're doing here and check their ammo before they get embarrassed or worse by a faulty reload that wasn't their fault in the first place.

I've measured tapers in Hornady (but not their match bullets), Nosler, and Winchester. It seems to be the norm. I just use Harold Vaughn's test. Put the bullet in the caliper jaws gently, and hold up to the light (illustration below).

Your measurements have me more convinced than ever that the sizing die dimensions are off. If your neck outside dimensions are the same before and after seating the Hornady bullet, the die is too big. This dimension should expand. Even if I don't trust the absolute accuracy of calipers, their relative accuracy for this measurement should be just fine. The inside measure you gave (.280") made it look like these necks should expand .004" when the .284" Sierra bullet goes in, but instead you only get 0.0005" change.

Caliper inside jaws are notoriously inexact, so without pin or small hole gauges I don't trust that .280" number. However, the fact the outside number doesn't change more with that bullet going into the neck is the big tell-tale that the dies are wrong. If the same caliper that measres the bullet as .284" puts the expander ball at .2825", a properly sized case should come out no bigger inside the neck than that ball and probably no more than .282 ater springing back. This still means the .284" bullet being seated should grow the outside of the neck by at least .002".

I am going to guess that you don't feel the expander dragging on the case as it withdraws from the die. You should. I would send the dies, a bullet and a case to the manufacturer and ask them to fix it. They should send you a new die that works. If you simply exchange the dies through a retailer, you may just get more of the same. Let the factory techs measure their own work and correct it. You'll get a custom die for no extra charge. That's the cool part.

Nick

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