Hello all,

I want to incourage everybody to post more of stuff that you may take for granted, especially with handloading. The newbies like myself get ALOT of information from just reading the post on here.

I am always impressed with the knowledge on here and I want to get all of it that I can.

Thanks for all the good info.

Hello all,

I want to incourage everybody to post more of stuff that you may take for granted, especially with handloading. The newbies like myself get ALOT of information from just reading the post on here.

I am always impressed with the knowledge on here and I want to get all of it that I can.

Thanks for all the good info.

Well, since you're asking.. ;)

I learned something the other day.

See, in the course of reloading five different calibers, two of them pistol cartridges, we'd come to expect that the full range of powder charges, especially for any pistol cartridges, would work just fine. As long as you didn't go above the maximum or below the starting charge, it didn't seem to matter. You could make adjustments for accuracy and such, and rarely have to worry about overpressure.

And then we started reloading .357 Magnum. As is often the case, my brother, who is more experienced and knowledgable in these matters, picked the powder. Since he'd bought the gun for me for Christmas, and had it sitting around for a month beforehand, he probably had a lot of time to sit and think it over. So, once we had brass to reload, we found load data for our powder in the Lee Reloading Manual and loaded up some test batches. We basically found a nice "middle of the road" amount of powder that would be sure to not overfeed or underfeed beyond the starting or maximum loads through our on-die powder dispenser. We also made a box of fifty "cheap rounds" (so named because the bullets were inexpensive) for just going out and shooting with. All told, we had loaded about 120 rounds of .357 Magnum.

So, I headed down to the shooting range that I have a membership with and proceeded to fire off my test batch (my brother wanted his own so he could see how different bullets acted on his own). There were 35 rounds in my test batch. Every last one of them stuck in the cylinder. The extractor spur thing would, at best, push them out far enough that I could use a little tool I had to pry them out. When we examined the cases, the primers had gone from having a nice rounded edge to being totally flattened out with a sharp 90 degree edge. So, that's two signs of overpressure. The strange thing being, all 35 rounds had less felt recoil than the factory ammunition I had fired through the gun before.

Over the next couple of days, we found that there was an unbelievable amount of variation in the load data for .357 Magnum. One reloading manual showed the same powder for that cartridge, but their maximum load was 0.7gr less than the starting load in the Lee book. Others called for different primers. One even called for small rifle primers.

So, we decided go about this logically. We went back to the starting load for the data we'd originally used, using our digital scale every time to make sure we got it spot on. (This was when we came across the problem with the 180gr bullets deforming the Remington brass, but that's beside the point). If that didn't work, we could always use the load data in the other book for that powder. We also tried loading some with HS-6 (and again, the load data varied a bunch between books).

We went out to a friend's farm days later, and I fired off all of my new test batch (which also included a few .38 Special loads). Not a single sticking cartridge, though one was a little resistant going in, but came out fine.

So, we now have 85 rounds of ammunition to pull the bullets out of and recharge, and our bullet-puller die doesn't seem to be able to get a good grip on .357 bullets for some weird reason.

Lessons I Learned: There is a reason they call it a *starting* load. Don't get so accustommed to any old amount of powder working in a pistol cartridge that you don't try to work up from the starting load on anything new.

Amen.

I use the QuickLoad internal ballistics software. QuickLOAD's powder data is taken from measurements of powder samples. H110 and 296 are the same powder. Hodgdon's tech told me they are made in the same plant and put in drums with different labels for the two companies. Yet, when you run a .357 in QuickLOAD it will show three thousand PSI difference for the same charge of H110 as of 296. Why? The two measured samples came from different lots.

Most loading manual data are gathered using one lot of powder. As a result I've seen starting loads that ran a tad too hot with the lot of powder I bought. I've also seen the reverse, where I could run over the max load without pressure signs with a particular gun and powder lot.

Another thing beginners will take for granted is that S.A.M.M.I. specifications govern the inside as well as the outside of cases. Nope. Only the outside. You can get a lot of variation in brass weight and powder capacity. I have had .308 Win. cases that weighed as much as 185 grains (IMI), or as little as 155 grains (Winchester). This was the difference between a 39 grain maximum and a 42.5 grain maximum charge of the same powder under the same bullet in one instance. Pistol cases are likewise irregular, and it doesn't take much difference in a straight wall case to make a significant difference in pressure. So with near-maximum loads, brass brands aren't interchangeable. You have to check the water capacity of your cases to compensate with a computer program (relative calculations are quite accurate, even when absolute calculated values have to be taken with a grain of salt), or you have to work the loads up again.

And we haven't even gone into differences in chamber dimensions, gun-to-gun, which have some of the same effect as case capacity differences. Don't assume. . . (You know the rest.)

Nick

Omeshotman, if you're just starting out, I'd give 2 pieces of advice.
#1. Do your homework. Reloading manuals have a wonderful section in the front that will explain how to set up all your reloading tools, how to use them, and why to do the things you need to do.
#2. And this is a biggie, even if it doesn't seem like it at first. KEEP GOOD RECORDS
You need to be able to see trends in what you're doing, and to duplicate the good loads, maybe years later. And to NOT duplicate bad loads.
Record the brand of all components, powder charge, primer, bullet, cartridge overall length, whether you full length sized or partial sized. Case length, how many times the case has been fired, whether a crimp was applied, whether the crimp was applied in a separate step, etc.
Then, after you fire them, apparent pressure signs, groups size, velocity, extreme spread, range conditions, etc.
If you do this consistently, you'll learn a lot, and save yourself time and money in the long run.

Revolvers generally do not show the classic high pressure signs. By the time these signs show up, you are allready way over pressure. A lot of the old manuals did not have pressure tested loads and when you compare the new manuals you will probably find lighter charges. I have had a number of loads that stuck in a revolver with the starting load so be careful. Some time ago when the 45 Colt first started getting hot loaded, a gun writer worked up a fast load the seemed ok. No stuck cases, flat primers or any other bad signs. He sent it in for pressure testing and it was over 65,000 cup. Way too high.

Actually, what Ironhead7544 said applies to all guns in some degree. In most instances you get pressure signs, and most loads are worked up this way satisfactorily. A number of writers have attempted to locate "the" pressure sign, but none has been found to always show up short of the gun coming apart. Primer flattening is the earliest and most common sign in a rifle, but it sometimes shows up well below maximum pressure and other times doesn't show up until you are over maximum. Crimped military primers don't usually show any flattening (because they can't back out under pressure) until they either start to leak gas, or if your firing pin hole is big enough, start to show cratering, or actually pierce.

I posted a thread warning of secondary pressures in slow powders with light bullets. Texas gunsmith Charlie Sisk has blown the muzzles off several rifles this way with no pressure signs on the cases at all.

You should NEVER use velocity as a primary load indicator. Very different pressure profiles can result in the same velocity; some dangerous. some safe. However, for modern chamberings, I chronograph commercial loads assembled with the same bullet I am loading to get an indication of what ballpark a full power load should fall into? If I haven't seen any pressure signs by the time I am going 5% faster than commercial loads with the same bullet, I get suspicious that pressure signs aren't going to work well in that gun.

Nick

Unclenick hit on one thing that, IMO, every reloader really does need. Chronograph.

This is one of the best ways to monitor your loads development.

Secondly, and this is simply somthing that I have adhered to since first cranking that press handle down....don't go for hot-rod velocities. It has been proven in 90% of most cases that your best groups will be with approx. mid-range power loads. At least, that has been my experience. I DON'T have alot...seriously...about 6 years and 12 calibers. Some folks around here have decades of experience and 3-4 times as many calibers loaded for...mebbe more.

Lastly...and this is somthing that comes with either age or cowardice...I am a coward, BTW...but if the load doesn't feel safe...or say if you wouldn't feel safe letting someone ELSE shoot that load, then don't do it. And if it has already been loaded, then you will need yourself a quality bullet puller. I prefer my RCBS Collet puller...unless your using lead, and even then it might not, but it won't damage the bullet and it will be reusable.

I also give a hearty +1 to Jack...keep up with your personal load data...I have two records...paper and computer spreadsheet. Initial loads are on paper...if they pass muster and seem like a winner, then it goes into the spreadsheet on the 'puter along with the group size, weather conditions, etc.

hope this helps!
D