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John Kort
01-22-2006, 06:20 AM
Ideal Handbook No. 17, published in 1906, shows a new cast bullet innovation ....the "gas check cup" along with two new molds designed to use them that are still with us today.... #308284(now Lyman's 311284) for the .30-40 Krag, and #308291 (now Lyman's 311291) for the .30-30.

But what event lead up to the research and development of this new cast bullet device? A hint of that was noted in Ideal's 1904 manual. Dr. Walter G. Hudson, who was a World Champion Rifle shooter and held many records in his day, had been working on the problem of trying to achieve 1,500 f.p.s. in the .30 U.S. Army (.30-40) with 200+ grain bullets which was felt would give accurate shooting at 600 yards.

Dr./Cpt. Walter Guy Hudson was perhaps the leading Krag shooter in the history of the competition Krag. He was a firing member of the 1902 Palma team, came in second in the Wimbeldon Cup a couple of times, and generally regarded as a champion class rifle competitor, not only with the Schuetzen rifle, but with the military rifle.

Beginning in 1901, there was a desperate need for military practice ammunition that was accurate to the mid ranges (600 yards) and Hudson applied himself to the task of perfecting a lead bullet load that would perform out to this range.

The problem he encountered in trying to achieve that goal was fusion, or gas cutting as we know it today. He tried experimenting with antimonial alloys for stronger bullets but fusion persisted. He worked with J.H. Barlow of Ideal on bullet design and diameters, even to the point of using a front "gas check" band (front driving band) diameter of .325"(!) but to no avail.

Eventually, Dr. Hudson and Mr. Barlow of Ideal Manufacturing Co. hit upon the idea that a copper alloy spacer to insulate the bullet from the hot powder gases might work. They tried copper discs under plain based bullets, and found that they successfully prevented fusion. Higher velocities were then achieved with no leading. . Further development lead to the cup profile and the first gas checked bullet... Ideal's #308284.

Since the gas checked #308284 worked very well, Mr. Barlow set to work to develop additional gas checked bullets very quickly. #308291 for the .30-30 was next. Samples of cartridges loaded to factory velocities with the new bullet designs were sent to the Marlin Firearms Co. and Savage Arms Company for their evaluation.

Marlin responded “We have the pleasure of reporting to you that these appear to be in every way equal to factory loaded ammunition with metal jacketed bullets.“ Savage wrote back that they tested them in the .30-30 and .303 Savage and they compared favorably in accuracy with their jacketed bullets.

A few years later, in 1909, the Ideal Handbook No. 19 illustrated a total of 15 different gas checked bullets in calibers ranging from the .25-20 up to .38-55.

It is known that these first gas checks were designed to fall from the base of the bullet shortly after leaving the muzzle. Some 60 or so years later, Hornady Manufacturing came along with a new crimp on engineered gas check designed to stay with the bullet in flight. And the rest shall we say….is history.

John

Cheezywan
01-22-2006, 07:26 AM
That is an interesting bit of history.
Thanks,
Cheezywan

MarlinCollector
01-22-2006, 01:13 PM
Hi John...

Did Hudson ever report on using PB bullets with their entire shank .002 to .003 inches over maximum groove diameter?

BTW, I've got another 336A coming my way soon; however, this time it's a nice looking "H" gun in .35 Rem and I already have a 235 grain GC design brewing on the MM website :-)

Regards,
MC

John Kort
01-22-2006, 07:34 PM
Hi MC,

From what I've read, Dr. Hudson recommended .312" diameter bullets for rifles that had groove diameters of .311" and less. So, in the case of .308-.310" groove barrels, there would have been .002"-.004" interference.

His testing indicates that he was able to shoot 2 1/2" groups at 200 yards from a machine rest with a plain based 200 gr. bullet using 12 grs. of L&R "Sharpshooter" in a .30-40 rifle.

He did indicate that the bullet holes were somewhat elongated at that distance indicating that the bullets were marginally stable. They still produced good accuracy though.

Cheezywan,
You are most welcome. History is interesting.

John

william iorg
01-22-2006, 08:32 PM
John,
Well done!
Do you have Hudsons book: "Modern Rifle Shooting from the American Standpoint"?

I have always womdered if this was a picture of Hudson taken in a studio?

John Kort
01-23-2006, 03:41 PM
Wiiliam,
Thank you for the kind words.

I had not heard of the book "Modern Rifle Shooting from the American Standpoint"

I'll have to be on the lookout for it in my travels. Thank you.

"I have always womdered if this was a picture of Hudson taken in a studio?" Interesting photo. No doubt , it probably was taken in a studio.

THere is a picture of Walter Hudson in a group photograph in the 2004 Gun Digest in the Krag / Hudson story by Jim Foral.
If the fellow in the photo is Walter Hudson, he has aged a bit in comparison to the Gun Digest photo.

John

william iorg
05-20-2006, 08:16 AM
I “live out” and receive my magazines three to five days after most everyone else but I thought I would mention Forum member John Kort has an interesting article in the current issue of the Cast Bullet Association’s “The Fouling Shot” (No. 181 May/June 2006). Similar to this thread, the article describes some of the development work by John Barlow of the Ideal Company, who, in concert with Dr. Hudson, developed the first gas check bullet, Ideal #308284 (later Lyman 311284).
John also mentions my favorite .30 caliber gas check bullet the 308291 (current Lyman 311291).
I enjoyed it John.

A little off topic...
There is also a short mention of a gentleman from Washington State who, using a Miller single shot action, shot a plain base cast bullet 10 shot group at 200 yards that measures 1.271”. The cartridge was the .32 Miller Short and the bullet was from a 210-grain Jones mold.
I usually shoot three and five shot groups as I find it very difficult to do everything the same ten times in a row. Forum member Greg Mushial has sent me a number of scanned targets of very small ten shot groups he shot at 100 yards, and even he often has an occasional shooter induced flyer. It is tough to put ten cast bullets into a small group at 100 or 200 yards. Dr. Hudson was shooting for record at 600 yards.
The Match results on the back pages of The Fouling Shot are very interesting as all aspects of the loads used by the competitors are listed. You will see a number of wildcat cartridges and quite a few customs molds. You will also see many very small groups shot with Lyman and RCBS molds and Alox lubricants. The .308 Winchester and Hodgdon’s Varget powder always appear in large numbers.
There is a gentleman who competes in the Postal matches regularly using TC Contender barrels chambered for .22 Hornet and .32-20 WCF. He shoots some small ten shot groups using bullets from Lyman and RCBS molds. I have attempted to duplicate some of his results with my 10” .22 Hornet Contender using the Lyman 225415 and 225438 with a 6X target scope. I am using a flat bottom forend and a fairly rigid rest but my bench technique with a single shot handgun leaves a lot to be desired!