WARNING: 2AM thread
I know we're a half dozen generations late for this debate, except for some of us.

Mabey I just stay up too late reading Capstick....
I've been spreadin' my opinions around like good manure lately. One of the questions I often hear is, which scope. What power? I have a couple of loves related to huntin'. One's long range rifle shooting. One's archery. One's shotgunnin' anything that'll run or fly and the law says I can shoot an'eat.

Sooo, I find myself torn every time I tell somebody what scope I like. For shots on running game up close, I don't want a scope of any kind. Yet, I like to have 12x to tip somethin' over waaay out there. In the military, they teach everyone to shoot to 300 yards with iron sights. Which means, for big game we don't need a scope out to three hundred. Yet most of us don't shoot any further. Closer than 75 yards, even a 3x gets in the way if the critters faster than a rash.

I know any day I go out, I may get a shot from 15 feet to ridiculously far away. In my experience, far more critters live to see another day 'cause I can't knock a million mph game animal over at petting range with a scoped rifle, than get away 'cause I don't have enough scope. Matter of fact, I've never lost an animal 'cause I didn't have enough scope. The ones needin a scope usually give ya time to use it.

I'd like to hear how some of y'all do it. Gotta be old boys out there packin' lever guns an' pumps with open sights, knockin down more critters than I do every year. What's the best type of open sight? I know there's guys runnin' round with twenty pound rigs who can't turn thier scopes below 6x. Shootin' stuff in differnt time zones.

What's a good compromise? 2.5-10? Somebody tell me they can hit that dream buck when he breaks into a twelve foot opening twenty feet in front of them at mach nine, with a scoped rig. I've yet to do it. But I've knocked holes in running deer at 250. Don't think I could do that with open sights.

'Nother way of lookin at it is instinctive shooting. Like shotguns. The dangerous game guys do it. Mostly with open sights. Let's hear some debate. The lever guns are sellin plenty. Yet I don't see 'em on the mountain. Mabey 'cause I'm in the west ?? I shot my first elk with a 94 30-30. Probably more critters killed with that outfit than will ever be killed with another single model. Haven't used it since. Had to have fast, flat, and scoped. Even went through a few scary months I thought the 06 was downright geriatric.

Whataya say??

Get a good receiver sight. My favorites are the Williams FP series. You can screw in different sized apertures giving you anything from "target range" tiny to full open for quick shots at game at very close ranges. I'm not a long-shot hunter, most shots at less than 100 yards. They are perfect for my needs.

And I thought I was the last dinosaur left standing... I do admit to liking my optics for long range work BUT, in most cases I have a high rise mount so the optics are there if desired but out of the way enough to allow the iron to put the lead on target.

I think most of the problem lies with the lack of decent iron sights. Flat out, most of 'em suck to be quite frankly honest about it. Whoever the dumb *** was that came up with the front dot/bead should have been repeatedly flogged. Nothing will loose you more accuracy than a crappy round front sight, fine for shot work in a scattergun but not worth a dang for anything else. Properly sized squared blades belong on the front coupled with a proportionally sized squared notch rear set back far enough to make it worthwhile having.

Most people will say they get better accuracy with a receiver sight....geeze, like that's a shock.... you don't think adding the additional length to the sight plane has anything to do with it????

Probably the same idiot who thought the round front sight was a good idea is the same idiot who came up with the triangle and or U-groove rear sight set half way down the barrel that not only make the sight picture suck but take enough length out the sight plane to absolutely ensure plenty of sight error. I have no doubt the designer(s) of such sights and their placement quite probably work(ed) for the optical sight companies!

Had this discussion on muzzleloaders not that long ago when a fellow kept arguing that longer barrels are more accurate. I countered stating that all he effectively did was increase the length of his sighting plane and if he simply moved the rear sight back more on his stubby barrel, it would shoot just as good. Took a while to get this point across but one night I took a long lever leaf sight and added about 6" to the shank so that it would set back about 8.5" from where the dovetail was cut in his stubby barrel. Put the rear sight close to the lock but when he started shooting, he soon realized that the stubby was not quite as in-accurate as he thought.... shock and awe!

I have a Savage 24V, 222/20 o/u. I could never hit a dang thing with the OEM sights and didn't want to scope it because it made wing/run shooting with the shotgun barrel nearly impossible. Knocked the OEM's off and put a nice winged front blade on and built a peep assembly that screwed down to scope mount. It's a set & forget design but works quite well not only for the rifle but also works great for the shotgun. Doing some upland hunting several years ago, I saw a bunny sitting in the open about 40yds out, selected the rifle barrel and put one though his noggin. The report caused a nice pheasant rooster to flush and with the flip of the selector, he went into the pot too.

The right iron will make all the difference!

One i came to the conclusion that my current hunting habits were all shorter range hunts, I started shooting iron sights. Yes...i could hunt other areas with longer range shots offered...but found I wasn't. Started hunting with iron or apature sights.

Why not? During black powder season, being a traditionalist, was using the most basic of iron and still managing to kill a deer. Heritic that I sometimes am, would sometimes take the black powder rifle out even when it wasn't black powder only season...simply because i enjoyed black powder.

Even at short range, you give up the early and late shots...still legal, but unless the critter is boldy outlined/skylighted, just aren't going to see the sights well enough to be confident in your shot.

Have shot running game. At times, set myself up in areas that are funnels and the game that others have spooked will pass through at various speeds. One or two shots were more like pass shooting big four-legged ducks than deer hunting. Usually there are deer I kick up myself, and they are bounding away.


Scopes undobutably work for this shooting if they are low enough power and not mounted so that the natual feel of the stock is compomised..sticking one way up in the air and "cheeking" the stock with your chin just isn't conductive to "jump shooting".

(Would be good to select a rifle that fit like a shotgun for this...or make a stock over so that it does...but can use one rifle long enough to get use to it and have it come up "pointing like it had eyes".)

Part of all of this is range limits...and most shooteres today like to think of their rigs as long range. BUT every rifle/sight/shooter/caliber combination does have a limit...some amy be 75yard rifles, otehrs might be true 750yard rifles.

Which begs the question: what do you do when the deer is out of range? IF you have decided you have a true 750yard rifle, do you take an 800yard shot? If you've decided your rifle is a 125yard rg, do you take a 170yard shot? the big question is this: Do you have the guts NOT TO SHOOT?

Too many hunters don't have the guts...they'll shoot even though they know on some level they shouldn't. I'm there for the hunt, which isn't the same thing as the kill....belive it or not, hav been times when I just decided not to shoot that deer. Don't know why...were in range, were leagal deer, and were not dofficult shots...just decided against it.

(BTW: I'm pst the point of wanting the biggest...would prefer the tastiest.)

With Iron, the limitations are stricter...so the need for the guts to say "no" is stronger...you will be tested, and if you can't let a deer pass without tossing a shot at it, please do not shoot with iron...do not shoot with BP (muzzle loading or cartridge) or smokeless rounds with sever range limitations.

My solution for iron sight hunting? I don't hunt where the temptation to shoot too far or too early exisits. Knowing the limits, will hunt where those limits are most likely to be the normal shots....I simply do not walk around the bend and take a look at that ean field or right-of-way; avoiding the temptation.

When I used scopes on rifles, before I became old-fashioned....and reverted to iron sights.....I preferred to never exceed 4x. Actually, I had a fixed 6x scope on a rifle I used for Elk, for a while. I realised that, after a couple of seasons, I likely would not need to shoot beyond 250 yards, anyway (which has always been a point of comfort for me....and I have always preferred not to shoot beyond 250)....so, at that point, I switched back to a fixed 4x. My favorite rifle scope "setup" overall, is actually a 2 x 20 long eye-relief scope, mounted ahead of the receiver, in the fashion of a "scout" rifle. I don't care about all of the hype and talk about the scout rifle "concept"....but I did find this setup to be very handy, quick and easy to use. In most cases, I found that I could shoot as well out to about 200 yards, as with a 4x scope. Also, though I am right-handed, but left-eye dominant, I found it possible to shoot with both eyes open with the forward-mounted 2x...which greatly improves such issues as field-of-view....and spotting game on the run, etc.

In the fullness of time, I became interested in milsurp rifles, Mausers in particular. So, at this point, I have lost all interest in "modern", scoped rifles. I use iron sights exclusively now. Given that I am over 40, my eyes not being what they once were, iron sights are a bit of a challenge for me. However, through extensive experimentation, I have found a combination of irons that works well for me, on my old Mausers. I certainly restrict my shooting to 150 yards or less on game now....as a matter of expediency...but this is no problem. For target shooting, I occasionally shoot at 200 or even 300 yards, but not often. 100 yards is the most common distance for me, now.

I am no longer concerned with getting a kill every time I step into the field. Indeed, the experience of getting out there is more interesting to me, than getting a kill. So, I am very willing to be patient, until a suitable game animal presents itself within my "effective" range envelope.

Given all of these facts....and the fact that I am more relaxed about my expectations at this point in life....I am quite happy to have things as they are. Besides, I have always had a lurking, sneaky feeling (in the back of my mind), that scopes are mostly a "crutch", anyway. The best shooters, with whom I have been acquainted, over the years, have always been very good with iron sights. Scopes for them, it seems, were only an aid to LONG-range shooting. Though, if my eyes get much worse, I will find myself reverting to a 2x scope, on a forward mount, I intend to stick with the irons, as long as I can.

Thanks for the input.

Hmm. Let me add a bit more. I shoot long range. I'm comfortable with a 750 yard shot, given time to set up and the critter's not alerted. I don't want to debate the ethics of long range hunting. I practise enough to know where my percentages go down. The only times I stretch the limits is shootin coyotes and prarie dogs, where I happen to be able to sleep at night if I score less than a perfect hit. Apalling!

Guesse what I'd really like to hear is a way to have the short game and the long game. I've never shot a fast breaking big game animal at less than fifty yards. I realize that jump shooting, where the odds of wounding animals is hgher, is practically taboo. Or, in my opinion, a dying art. But, this is what I'm talking about. My theory is, I could apply wingshooting skills to big game hunting with the proper equiptment. Yet, I don't want to surrender long range capabilities.

I know there are those of you who can do both. Let's hear some more.

simple solution for you. get a scout scope sysyem with a Leupold or the Burris and you are good to go. Up close and distance shots since you like scopes. good luck.

pennsylvania antlered deer hunting laws pretty much preclude using iron sights. There has to be 3 points on one side and they all have to be at least an inch long, Its kind of akward to use binoc's and switch over to a peep sight for the terrain and conditions that PA offers. I usually keep my scope set on 3 and jump it up if i need to

As I sit with my new winchester 70 300 wsm on my lap... yup its scoped. Yes, I too hunt deer in pa where we must first count before we shoot. But I remember when that was different. I own several deer rifles, two levers, three bolts, and one muzzle loader. The muzzle loader has "notch and post" iron sights which are req. in pa for primative muzzle loader season. The 45-70 marlin has a factory hooded front sight and a williams peep mounted atop the action. The peep works good on fast moovers alowing you to use it much like one fires a shotgun. Put the bead on the target, and pull the trigger. A major improvement over standard sights. Next, an early winchester 94 in 30-30 w\ factory sights. If that gun wasn't a hand me down from great grand dad, I'd have attacked those sights with a hammer and grinder. The factory rear is a "buckhorn" style, mounted halfway down the barrel, and the front is a bead style. Inaccurate, imprecise, and requires me to line three things up, all usually moving a differing rates. But with a steady hand, and a little patience the gun puts meat on the table and hasn't changed zeros that I know of. Now, to the bolt guns, one 03-a3, in 30-06 by remington, wears a burris elite 3-9 by 40mm. Dad borrowed it a shot a nice doe at 150' or so. A new model 70 in 300wsm, has a 3-9 x40 simons 8 point. thats getting changed here soon to a lepold v-2 series 3-9 or a 4-12 by prolly 40-50 mm. I hate cheap scopes, I'll elaborate later. Last but not least by favorite deer getter. A remington model 700 in .243 win w/ a simons atec 2.8-10 x 44. That combo has been responsible for over 20 deer. From 50 yards running full tilt thru brush to popping woodchucks at 400. Secret, I leave the scope at 2.8 period, no bumping it up to 6 when i'm watching a field. I think that is a bad practice that lets you forget what you left it on 10x and while your walking out you bust one close and cant find it in the scope. Always leave it low and return it to low after checking something out. And should you spot one a ways out you almost always have time to zoom in and assess the possibilities. Things one should not do when scoping his rifle. 1. Settle for a cheap scope. They dont transmit light well, usually glare when pointed in a western direction, have inaccurate adjustments, and distort images on the in the center at a distance. 2. Use see thru mounts. they cause the head to be lifted off the cheek piece when the scope is used. A good cheek weld is paramount for a successful shot at any distance greater that 50 yards or so. Either use iron sights or scope the rifle, but no combos please. Iron sight no-no's 1.) leaving the rear sight mounted half way up the barrel, length of the sight plane is what makes the sights accurate. 2.) plastic sights, remington puts them on the adl line. Just a bad idea. 3.) buckhorn stlye sights unless its a sentimental set up, at least go to a square notch and post set up. Any option you choose remember to practice, practice, practice. Have a rimfire sighted the same as your deer getter. Put a rear sight on you scatter gun. My Ithaca does, its a blast. Follow birds you jump with your scope, just practice getting them into your scope. Practice period

I'll give you light gathering and the ability to hunt in dimmer light...and there is no doubt about the more precise aiming point...but would slapping a scope on a 50-70 really make all that much differnce in range? For that matter, would putting one on a "Kentucky" long rifle really extend that little ball's killing range?

Will agree with scoping a modern centerfrire...an iron sighted .270 or .300Mag. does seem like it's limited...why get all that much vel. if you're limited to iron and eyesight?


I haven't hunted game in a couple of years now with anything but iron...so i pass some shots I could ahve taken with a scope sighted rifle...big deal, it's not like I'll starve without that deer, and the point is to hunt and enjoy myself.


NO...I'm not anti-scopes...have guns with them, and use them. But I do think most HUNTING rifles are over scoped today (at the range, from a bench, it's hard to be overscoped...but this is about hunting). In the field, will my .22LR be more any more effective with a 20X than it is with a 4X?

You are certainly right about those bead front sights. Too inprecise and will make you shoot toward the light. The Patridge type is best. On a lever action I have found that a full buckhorn sight can be used as a ghost ring. Works nearly as well as a receiver sight. It might have been intended to be used that way as you can have 3 sight pictures. For a scope, I have a 2 and 3/4 power Burris scout scope mounted on my Ruger 77 308. Very fast with practice. If it looks too far away in a 2 and 3/4 power scope, it probably is too far away. The ghost ring sights are very fast and I also have a set on my Mossberg pump 12 ga. Once you get used to them you are only looking at the front sight like a shotgun. Just my .02.

I like a good receiver sight as much as anybody, but there is something to be said for the scout setup...it is a fast, both eyes open, setup using a proper low power scope.

Think it's a matter of preference either way, I prefer to have one of each in the 336.

As Ribbonstone said, I like glass on my long range rifles, but I like my irons on rifles that will not do much beyond 200 yards. Because of my vision and preference for sights, iron typically means a receiver sight. Maybe a ghost ring if it is a good one.

Not a buckhorn fan one way or the next.

Well, if you want short AND relatively long range capability, in the same package, you have three choices. First, a variable magn. scope, in the 1.5 - 4.5x...or 1.5 - 5.5x range...something like that. This would allow close shooting....yet, dialed up to maximum magn.....longer ranges, up to perhaps 300 yards, depending on your ability and eyesight. You could perhaps, use a 2.5 - 10x scope, or something like that....but close range shooting would be a bit more awkward.

The second possibility is to mount whatever scope you choose on high, see-through mounts....to allow the irons to be used at close ranges....and the scope at longer ones. This is NOT the best arrangement for accurate shooting...as it introduces parallax error in the system, which can compromise accuracy, at any range.

Lastly, you could use some sort of quick-detach scope mount system....in combination with iron sights (the scope for longer ranges...then detach it and use the irons for closer ranges). Of course, this is quite cumbersome....and it is impossible to make really quick changes. Also, the problem of whether the scope will be zeroed, once re-installed...is a large one. This third possibility is, as you can see, not a very practical one.

IMO, the best overall setup would be the 1.5 - 4.5/5.5/6 x, variable scope. Of course, this will really not allow for shooting at 750 yards. In this area, much compromise is necessary....and it is not always possible to get everything one might want, in the same package.

Over the years I have found it darn near impossible to get on a moving deer at close range with a scope. Two years ago I got lucky at a PA gun show and bought a Mannlicher Schoenauer 8x56 with the german claw mount quick detachable scope. What a great rig! One push of the button releases the scope & slip in your jacket for close-in hunting. When you get to the edge of a field just snap the scope back on, only takes a few seconds. Zero is absolutely consistent.
Granted the 8MM will not reach out like my 270 Win. but most shots are under 100 yards anyway and the 185 gr. 8MM will put 'em down! I wish some US manufacturers would offer this style scope mount. In my opinion it's a great system for eastern whitetail and you don't have the iron or scoped problem.

Think of all the new stuff I now have to buy and try out! How about we have a conference. We'll call it a business trip. We'll all go to Texas and shoot hogs with various set ups in the thick. After one of us gets eaten, we'll all go to Wyoming and shoot antelope from no closer than 500 yards. Then we'll meet in Colorado, build some rigs that work for both situations, and go elk hunting. Everybody bring thier favourite rig, so I can shoot them all.

We'll have to make it an eight week conference. Throw in a prarie dog shoot, coyote hunting, a bighorn, and a black bear. Better shoot some birds too, and rabbits. When we're done we'll have a meeting to decide what to hunt for the African, Alaskan, and European conferences.

I buy two or three set-ups a year. It will take me a couple years to try this stuff out.