Hey all,
Just signed up today. I was told that this was the best website for advice regarding guns. I do a lot of my hunting in Alabama where my host family has almost 200 acres of prime hunting land. So far I have harvested two deer from this food plot with a .30-06 (Browning A-BoltII). I took a buck at 220 yards and a doe at a 100 yards. One shot kills with a Nosler ballistic tip. My problem is that there is going to be some more new food plots much further away from the shooting house where my longest shot is going to be upto 500 yards. Now, I need a 30-06 round that can maintain a stable flight and pile drive the "nanny" at that range. I donot have to worry about any cross winds as the food plots are enclosed from all directions by thick wooded areas. Need some advice regarding this as I am looking forward to hunting the long field coming season. Meat in my freezer has run out and so has my patience.
HELP!!!!!
Thomas.

You would have to test the ammo in your rifle, there is no magic most accurate factory or handloaded ammo, depends on the rifle. Since you want to stretch it out a bit I would try the Hornady light mag and Federal high energy loadings first to see how they shoot. 150-165gr bullet would probably be your best bet for the long range stuff on deer. 500 yards is a long shot, you might want to look at a scope with a reticle that will help you to hit at those ranges if you intend to shoot that far. Lots of practice will be needed for that type of shooting, at least with any certainty of hitting what you aim at. I wouldn't consider any load that did not print 1moa for the ranges you are talking about.

If there is enough open area to shoot 500 yards wind will be an issue at the ranges you are talking about, a fairly important issue if the wind is strong.

You might consider buying a 7mm Magnum for those kind of long range shots. A 175 grain bullet would hold well. Gives you a good excuse for adding a new gun to your collection. Just MHO. Peace and God bless, Wolfsong.

You need to figure out how to get closer than 500 yards, the bottom line is that its not an ethical shot. Sure everybody's uncle has done it, is it wise? I've been walking out in the fields we have the day after opening weekend, and seen several deer laying in the fields, unrecovered... fools with guns...

A 7 Mag isn't going to make the shot any more ethical... You should easily be able to get within 250 yards, which will increase your ability to inflict a one shot kill...

No one can responsibly answer your question. There are simply too many variables. Far too many people try a load at 100 yards and, if it shoots well, consult a ballistic chart to see what the drop "should" be at 500 yards or whatever, and call it good. No two rifles are alike, though, and a load which will give you a drop of X inches at 500 yds. in one rifle will give you X-plus-or-minus with another. The only way to know with your gun is to shoot it -- a LOT -- at that range and see what happens. Then, there's wind. 500 yards is a long, long way and even a mild breeze can deflect shots significantly over that distance. And there's altitude -- relative humidity -- lighting conditions-- etc., etc.... Far too much room for error.

In short, such a shot without extensive research and practice with the rifle/load combo falls into the category of a stunt, and one showing a poor sense of hunting ethics. If you're not willing or able to do the homework required, there's only one answer -- GET CLOSER!!

man i don't mean to flame ya but i agree with all the others. if you're trying to ask what out of the box ammo will be best at 500 yds, then it tells me you've never shot at 500 yds. it is not something you master by a couple trips to the range. 250 yds is pushing 90% of the hunters and their equipment myself included. for 500 yds you better be ready to anti up 800.00+ for the optics you'll need. and you'll need an additional 800.00+ for the binos too.it is cheaper to shoot shorter distances. sorry it's not the answer you're looking for.

hey 30-06 shooter, i will answer this for ya. of all the box ammo in 30-06 that i shot nothing came close to the performance that i got in accuracy than the Federal Premium in 165gr Siera Game Kings.
it would just flat stack em out of my model 70.

Ohhh, boy!
First, every rifle is different, just like people are. What ammo is best for your rifle- you have to test several brands and find out. No one can tell you what your rifle prefers.
Next, 500 yard shooting is a d*** sight easier on a keyboard than it is in real life.
You'll need a rangefinder- you need to know the range within 25 yards.
And wind? There's gonna be wind in a feedplot, even if it's 2 yards wide. Worse yet, it'll be swirling.
Your first step is do some ammo testing and find out what your rifle likes best. The next step is to repeat the test at 300 yards, in similar conditions to what you'll encounter on your hunting ground- same position, same rest, etc. Can you keep all your shots in an 8 inch circle under those conditions? If you can't- and I mean every shot, not your best shots-then you shouldn't shoot at that range.
That's a start, anyway.

Buy three or four or five boxes of everything on the shelf. Try each and every different kind of ammo from two or three stores.
Shoot two five shot groups of each at 100 yards and see how they do.
Then shoot three or four or five, five shot groups at 300 yards and see how they do there.
Move back to 500 yards. Make sure you measure it. Shoot five or six or seven, five shot groups of every type of ammo as they all behave differently and see if you can keep every bullet in each group on a paper plate at 500.

What this will likely tell you is that you need to be closer. at 500 yards, even a 10 MPH breeze will blow you off a paper plate. Say you found a bullet that will stay on the plate at 500? Good for you!
Get closer. Paper plates dont take a step at the most inconvenient times. Find out that you have a real winner and can shoot inside of five inches at 500 yards each and every time?
Then improve your stalking skills and get closer.

No one is busting your backside over this, just telling you like it is. Besides, it's more satisfying to sneak up on them and get closer.

As for someone who doesn't sound like an experienced shooter for 500 yards out, I first think you should get some practice time in. But as for the most adequate load I must say go for the 165 grain Hornady SST Light Mag. Also there should be no problem for somebody to stalk to within 400 yards at the absolute minimum(unless you're desperate on that last day hunt), which I think is tons more reasonable. Do remember; it isn't he who can hit the pop can @ 500 yards, but he who has the talent to stalk closely to an animal that is the better hunter.

There are dedicated hunters who like to long range shoot game at ranges of 1000+ yards. Nothing against them, they have the specialized equipment and skill to do so. Rifles that weigh over 10 lbs, optics, rangefinders, etc. along with shooting off of a bench. However as others have said, if it's something you are interested in doing, my first advise would be put the time in behind the gun. I'm not talking a few shots here and there, I mean some serious time so you are familiar with how your loads perform at various ranges, how much drop they give, wind effect, etc. You have to know your ballistics and practice your knowledge to be proficient at long range shooting. If you don't have the time, money nor desire to put the time in, then to put it simply, don't take that shot, get closer. Unless you do these things, it's outside your limitations and you'll probably end up wounding an animal if you're lucky enough to hit it, more than likely causing a slow painful death or crippled animal.

As for someone who doesn't sound like an experienced shooter for 500 yards out, I first think you should get some practice time in. But as for the most adequate load I must say go for the 165 grain Hornady SST Light Mag. Also there should be no problem for somebody to stalk to within 400 yards at the absolute minimum(unless you're desperate on that last day hunt), which I think is tons more reasonable.

I like a lot of what Rem 700 says. The 165 Light Mag gives you identical ballistics to a .300 Win (assuming equal barrel lengths). That's quite amazing and as well as your going to do in .30-06 in 2006.

400 is the max reasonable range for most of us. Your drop goes from 19" at 400 to over 36" at 500. Even a blistering 150gr BT .300 Weatherby goes from 15" to 31". So you can see it REALLY falls off fast past 400 yds regardless of caliber.

If the wind isn't blowing

If you have impecable range finding or Target Reference Points marked

If you squeeze it off perfectly

If the target does move at all during the 6/10s sec time of flight

....you might be able to stretch it to 500. But I would count on spending a lot of hours sending hundreds of rounds downrange. That's very expensive with factory loads. And then you have to wait for a low wind situation. You are from Texas right:-) Do you even have low wind situations?

Firstly, I would to thank all you guys for your inputs. I agree that a 500 yard shot is a long ways away, but at the risk of sounding cocky, I have taken mountain goat at 350 yards and shot through the vitals. I belive I hit what I aimed for and compensated (not guesstimated) for the yardage. Its just that 500 yards is a very jittery yardage. Sort of "havent been there, havent done that" kind of ordeal. Also, at the time, I was shooting a .308 (Model 700). I just havent put in any range time with my 30-06 at that yardage. The longest I have ever shot at the range with the rifle was 200 yards which was the longest piece of flat ground available at the range. I was wondering if anyone has tried the sierra match king ammunition. I live at an apartment complex and reoading ammo in an apartment with 2 room-mates really does not leave me enough bench room for a hand-loader. I will get some practice at a better shooting range where I have been told that I could shoot out to 600 yards. I did look up some ballistics information and I also have a Zeiss scope which my dad gave me for christmas and I like the optics on it. To sum it up, I am currently shooting my Model 700 witha tapered barrel chambered for the 30-06 ( I gave the browning to my younger brother) with a Zeiss conquest scope mounted low. I believe I lack in a suitable out of box accurate ammo, range time and some confidence juice. Please give me your input.

The most accurate factory load I have ever shot was the Hornady 168 BTHP match. See here. They are hard to find though.

http://www.wholesalehunter.com/product/hornady/horndes/match.html

Terminal ballistics are not that good on game I'm afraid. I heart shot the one deer I killed with it at about 150 yds, so of course it died, but I was not impressed with the expansion (or lack thereof). It is practically a FMJ.

Matchkings are very accurate bullets, but my experience is limited to reloading them in a 22-250.

"Hunt close, then get closer," let's you know where I fit in. And yes, I hunt with a Rem. 700 30-06 with a Leupold M8 4X scope.

Dinking at deer from a shooting house at 500 yards is not my idea of hunting. That's target practice at live targets.

I encourage you to get into the silloheutte (spelling?) target competition game. You can keep score without killing or wounding anything. And the "old guys" in that sport can help you find answers to your ammo, equipment and technique questions.

Before I get flamed for being some sort of PETA freak or tree hugger...last fall I took an antelope at about 125 yds, a mule deer at about 80 yds, and a 5X4 elk at 40 yds.

Sometimes hunters define themselves more by the shots they pass up than by the ones they take.

Leave the target (match) bullets for paper punching. They are not intended to be used on game animals.

The most accurate factory ammo I've used has been the Hornady Light Magnum 180 gr in the 30-06. A heavier bullet will retain impact energy at longer ranges than the lighter weights and the bullet drop isn't all that much different from the lighter ones.

Leave the target (match) bullets for paper punching. They are not intended to be used on game animals.

The most accurate factory ammo I've used has been the Hornady Light Magnum 180 gr in the 30-06. A heavier bullet will retain impact energy at longer ranges than the lighter weights and the bullet drop isn't all that much different from the lighter ones.

The numbers on Light Mags are very impressive, but I've been told (gun smith) that they accelerate wear on throats/barrels. If one were to become proficient with them at a good distance, lots of range time would be required. If the the wear issue is true, might not be so good for the life of the rifle.

But perhaps it's anecdotal from isolated experience(s)?

jonas

The most accurate factory load I have ever shot was the Hornady 168 BTHP match. See here. They are hard to find though.
Matchkings are very accurate bullets, but my experience is limited to reloading them in a 22-250.
sierra Game Kings, if you want long range accuracy and a hunting bullet.

Well, looks like I have made my mind up.
Firstly, I am going to go back to the basics of stalking. I used to bow hunt a lot from the ground. No reason why I can't get back to it again. Secondly, a bow kill in my opinion is not as quick and efficient as a well placed rifle kill. Hence I will be hunting with my rifle only from now on. THirdly, I am dedicating my Sundays to the shooting range and putting atleast 35-40 rounds through the barrel every week till I get it right at the 500 yard mark. I am going to aim for atleast 5/5 shots through a pie plate (simulate the vitals) at that yardage. Thanks for the inspiration fellas. God bless all y'all.
Thomas Das

Sometimes hunters define themselves more by the shots they pass up than by the ones they take.[/QUOTE]


Well said, by golly. Can I quote that in the future?

Shooting at 500 yards really isn't demonstrating good hunting skills, but there are folks who are proficient at it. It's kind of an ethics thing, and we all have different concepts of that. The problem arrises when we have someone who overestimates his ability, but time and experience usually take care of that....ideally.

The numbers on Light Mags are very impressive, but I've been told (gun smith) that they accelerate wear on throats/barrels. If one were to become proficient with them at a good distance, lots of range time would be required. If the the wear issue is true, might not be so good for the life of the rifle.

But perhaps it's anecdotal from isolated experience(s)?

jonas

For a normal hunter, who will zero using 9-15 rounds a year and then go hunting, your gun would last for generations using these. Now, if you put several hunded rounds down range a year with them, maybe they would accelerate erosion a bit. Your barrel using them should wear about like a .300 Mag barrel would I believe.

The problem arrises when we have someone who overestimates his ability, but time and experience usually take care of that....ideally.


And this is a problem that is far too common. Had a neighbor this year, who I don't even think verifies his zero on his rifle take a pot shot at a buck at 300 yards. Thought he hit it as he found a few spots of blood and that was it. Ticked me off as that was a buck that another hunter could've had an opportunity at. He just didn't have the self control to pass it up knowing it was outside his ability and hope for another opportunity. Some people just don't care and IMO, give hunters a bad rap sometimes. Luckily another neighbor shot that buck and found the first neighbor hit it in the rear lower leg. Had he put in some shooting time, he could have easily taken that buck.

.30-06shooter, good luck and hope to see you post some of your groups and see how you're doing. With that much shooting planned, you may want to get into reloading as it'll pay for itself very quickly. I think my top bullet choices would be the Sierras and Hornady and Nosler plastic tips and see what shoots best in your rifle.

For a normal hunter, who will zero using 9-15 rounds a year and then go hunting, your gun would last for generations using these. Now, if you put several hunded rounds down range a year with them, maybe they would accelerate erosion a bit. Your barrel using them should wear about like a .300 Mag barrel would I believe.

BD:

Yeah, that sounds about right. My point was that if someone were interested in really being a good shot at 500 yds, they'd need a quite a bit of range time. Even at 100M, I blow thru no fewer than 20 rounds, usually more like 40-50, per session.

The more typical "once to the range for the year" scenario for 500yd shooting would really be exacerbating the ethics issue already raised.

But don't get me wrong, I've done plenty of stat comparison with the Lite Mags...VERY tempting!! :D

cheers

jonas

BD:

Yeah, that sounds about right. My point was that if someone were interested in really being a good shot at 500 yds, they'd need a quite a bit of range time. Even at 100M, I blow thru no fewer than 20 rounds, usually more like 40-50, per session.

The more typical "once to the range for the year" scenario for 500yd shooting would really be exacerbating the ethics issue already raised.

But don't get me wrong, I've done plenty of stat comparison with the Lite Mags...VERY tempting!! :D

cheers

jonas

I agree totally. To put the time in with Light Magnums to get proficient at over 400 is going to be costly. And yeah, once you get over 2000 to 3000 rounds with a .300 Mag(essentially what you have with Light Mags), you may start seeing some erosion. For the cost side, I wish someone would crack the code on reloading these rounds with safe pressures.

I agree totally. To put the time in with Light Magnums to get proficient at over 400 is going to be costly. And yeah, once you get over 2000 to 3000 rounds with a .300 Mag(essentially what you have with Light Mags), you may start seeing some erosion. For the cost side, I wish someone would crack the code on reloading these rounds with safe pressures.

Is there a reason you'd see more erosion with a heavier caliber? Wouldn't the barrels/throat/action be designed with the heavier pressures in mind? Sorta a dumb question...but, nonetheless: doesn't make sense that you'd have the same setup for a .300Mag as you'd have in a .243. I would assume they should wear equally, based on design-for-caliber. Or is there a point past which standard rifle designs cannot go in so far as material tolerances?

Showing my ignorance, but good to know.

jonas

Is there a reason you'd see more erosion with a heavier caliber? Wouldn't the barrels/throat/action be designed with the heavier pressures in mind? Sorta a dumb question...but, nonetheless: doesn't make sense that you'd have the same setup for a .300Mag as you'd have in a .243. I would assume they should wear equally, based on design-for-caliber. Or is there a point past which standard rifle designs cannot go in so far as material tolerances? jonas

Well, yes and no actually. There are a lot of variables. Barrels for high capacity rounds are generally built with harder steel. This helps. But as you say, there is a point past which standard rifle designs cannot go in so far as material tolerances.

Here is what Chuck Hawks has to say: "To give a satisfactory service life, barrels for high velocity cartridges must me made from tougher and harder steel than barrels for lower pressure cartridges. A .270 Weatherby Magnum requires a tougher barrel than a .270 Winchester, which requires a tougher barrel than a .30-30, which requires a tougher barrel than a .22 LR. So manufacturers generally use more erosion resistant steel in barrels for high intensity cartridges, and barrels for magnum cartridges are often made of very hard stainless steel. Harder steels are more difficult to work and raise manufacturing costs (and thus retail prices) which, of course, is not desirable. The consumer has to rely on the manufacturer's judgment in this area. Fortunately, the major name brands like Browning, Marlin, Remington, Ruger, Savage, and Winchester all seem to know what they are doing in regard to choosing appropriate barrel material for their rifles, and barrel life is longer today than ever before."

Despite this, in a sporter weight barrel for say a Browning rifle; a .300 Win Mag will generally erode faster then a .30-06, a .30-06 will generally erode faster than a .308. The more powder you burn and the greater the velocity, the more heat. The more heat, the more erosion. And using harder steels can only go so far in mitigating this fact.

Here is what G&As Craig Boddington says: "Large-cased overbore cartridges that burn huge quantities of powder to achieve their velocities are going to wear throats faster than smaller-cased cartridges of the same caliber, period. The 7mm Ultra Mag, 7mm STW and 7.21 Fireball are a good deal faster than the 7mm Rem. Mag., but they burn a whole lot more powder to get there. Overall barrel wear will be faster, and they will erode throats much faster.

With proper care, a good old .30-06 should deliver accuracy for at least 3,000 rounds or more. Some of the new cartridges that are much faster (and burn much more powder) will almost certainly show reduced accuracy long before 1,000 rounds are fired."

Well, yes and no actually. There are a lot of variables. Barrels for high capacity rounds are generally built with harder steel. This helps. But as you say, there is a point past which standard rifle designs cannot go in so far as material tolerances.

Here is what Chuck Hawks has to say: "To give a satisfactory service life, barrels for high velocity cartridges must me made from tougher and harder steel than barrels for lower pressure cartridges. A .270 Weatherby Magnum requires a tougher barrel than a .270 Winchester, which requires a tougher barrel than a .30-30, which requires a tougher barrel than a .22 LR. So manufacturers generally use more erosion resistant steel in barrels for high intensity cartridges, and barrels for magnum cartridges are often made of very hard stainless steel. Harder steels are more difficult to work and raise manufacturing costs (and thus retail prices) which, of course, is not desirable. The consumer has to rely on the manufacturer's judgment in this area. Fortunately, the major name brands like Browning, Marlin, Remington, Ruger, Savage, and Winchester all seem to know what they are doing in regard to choosing appropriate barrel material for their rifles, and barrel life is longer today than ever before."

Despite this, in a sporter weight barrel for say a Browning rifle; a .300 Win Mag will generally erode faster then a .30-06, a .30-06 will generally erode faster than a .308. The more powder you burn and the greater the velocity, the more heat. The more heat, the more erosion. And using harder steels can only go so far in mitigating this fact.

Here is what G&As Craig Boddington says: "Large-cased overbore cartridges that burn huge quantities of powder to achieve their velocities are going to wear throats faster than smaller-cased cartridges of the same caliber, period. The 7mm Ultra Mag, 7mm STW and 7.21 Fireball are a good deal faster than the 7mm Rem. Mag., but they burn a whole lot more powder to get there. Overall barrel wear will be faster, and they will erode throats much faster.

With proper care, a good old .30-06 should deliver accuracy for at least 3,000 rounds or more. Some of the new cartridges that are much faster (and burn much more powder) will almost certainly show reduced accuracy long before 1,000 rounds are fired."


Huh, well there you go...
I read up on C.Hawks as much as I can. That guy knows a bloody ton.
Makes sense...at this point, we can only do so much given optimal weights, sizes, etc. Until the new 'miracle' material is found.

Now, titanium barrels would/should obviously be better for this, yeah?

Thanks BD!

jonas