With the info coming back from Africa about cast bullet "failures" on African game I thought I would do an impact test on 3 standard loads. The results make me think these bullets won't fail on African game.

325gr 44, 525gr PileDriver, and 185gr 357.

I set them on conctrete and hit each one twice with a solid two handed blow.
The 357 failed along a diagonal line. To be fair, it received the same blow as the piledriver, which amounts to a lot more force in psi than the other bullets endured. I don't know how the piledriver could fail on game, but I have never shot anything that big.

Grizz

http://www.empresspublications.com/stuff/002.jpg

Hello Griz.......I like it! Now that's a severe test also!.....James

Hay...thats my hammer! Nice test, I woner if the big ammo company's ever tried that.

I can answer that question....not to my knowledge! The gun and ammo co's have spent a lot of time and dollars testing and designing jacketed bullets.......in an attempt to have then expand within a certian velocity bracket.
You must remember that it would be very costly for them to cast bullets vs swage them.........even with high speed casters.
It has taken over fifty years to get the American shooter/hunter to accept what the Brit knew 150 years ago with their big hard lead slug/bullets in Africa/India.
Still today there is a misunderstanding of what these can do!......James

Thanks Guys

My only regret is that I now have 3 fewer bullets to shoot! I was glad to see these results and I plan to whack the piledriver some more to see exactly how it reacts. I think the ideal would be if it just got shorter and fatter.

Makes me think I've been whacked by that hammer in as much as I am getting shorter.... forget it.

Grizz

Extreme bullet tests are nice for comparative analysis, but the only way to know for certain is use the bullet in the application you want to duplicate in the tests. As James is fond of saying, "Gutpile Analysis". To pronounce a bullet an elephant stopper, vary the distance, the shot angle, frontal brain shots, side brain shots, heart/lung shots, etc... on elephants and then you will be certain whether it works or not. Same with bear or deer or elk or whatever else.

We read about this stuff all the time on-line and in the paid advertisement magazines, but until we actually use bullets for the purpose, its all academic. To correlate 3 feet of elephant skull to newsprint, ballistic gelatin, lead plating, hammer blows or anything else is just inconclusive. Want to know how a bullet will react on a frontal brain shot on an elephant? Go shoot one (or a dozen). Want to know how a bullet will perform on a grizzly at an odd angle? Go shoot 'em.

I would be first to agree that all the testing of bullets does not replace Gut-Pile Analysis. But......what a severe test on bullets does show is how one bullet compares to another......right?
Well, for the sake of discussion, we take a bullet of known weight and velocity that has been used with success and is accepted as such.
How else can you compare one agaist that proven bullet except severe testing? Questions like "Will it hold together or fragmate?", etc.
If you have a jacketed bullet that is known to work well in game......expansion, etc. Can't a comparison between that known bullet another be tested in various media to see if the expand the same?
No, severe testing and testing for expansion can never replace Gut-Pile analysis......but it will give some idea how one known bullet ( from G-P-A) will compare against another bullet.
I had rather have some type of tests aimed at a comparison, that just dream it will work.....but that's just me! Final analysis will be what you have confidence in, whether it works or not.
Again, for the sake of discussion, how would you suggest to compare bullets? Shoot game? That might take a lot of killing before arriving at a conclusion. As from shooting an elepahnt.....we have bullets that have proven to test against. As for a griz, I have asked many times for those that have killed them to discuss what they used. "Ain't" all this fun.........Regards, James

Problem though, James, is:
With the info coming back from Africa about cast bullet "failures" on African game I thought I would do an impact test on 3 standard loads. The results make me think these bullets won't fail on African game.

A severe impact test is not the only determining factor in failure on game animals. Getting smacked with a hammer, ballistic gelatin, wet or dry newsprint, or any other host of homemade bullet test is not going to tell us what a bullet will or won't do on game animals. This isn't about Beartooth bullets, its about testing. I have no doubt in my mind that Beartooth bullets are the very best of the best cast bullets out there. But there are a whole host other factors, including acute angle impact, penetration through soft tissue, penetration through bone, varying velocities, etc... Like you have stated so many times in the past, theory is nice, but gut pile analysis is what brings home the bacon.

We should take a trip to Africa with a large supply of bullets and smack a lot of game with them to be sure. We'll need a large wallet, too, unfortunately!

There are just too many different tests out there with conflicting results and none of them have any concrete evidence of their direct (or even indirect) correlation to how they will behave on game animals.

Maybe through all this "testing", I have not been able to make myself clear. Let's take an example. For the sake of discussion, we have a bullet that has proven to be an excellent bullet on a specific game animal......at all angles, etc. Now, we test that bullets construction in the various severe test medias. Then we find the the test bullets held together as well as the proven game bullet, the test bullet penetrated as deep, caused the same cavity in media, etc.........could we not then think the test bullet would perform as well as the proven bullet?
OK......Let's take a bullet that has a record of 150 years proven ability to take a certain game animal. We now re-introduce a new bullet exactly like the original.....size, weight, temper, velocity......can we not accept it should kill game as well as the original?
Understand that I am saying the new bullets is tested against a proven game bullet in the medias........James

Well, my interesting in testing and comparing ammo is purely selfish and defensive. Large brown bears live in my village, and inhabit every single place I hunt for deer.

Since I am afraid of bears, don't know why, don't care why, I hunt with a gun that I think may be useful if I have to stop a bear from taking me out to dinner.

If the bullet I chose for this one purpose, stopping bears, might not do the job I am intensely interested. If I ever find an already dead bear I will certainly do forensic analysis of the ammo I carry.

Until then I am stuck with shooting rocks, water jugs, lead balls, dirt, and firewood in an attempt to determine if I have false hopes for my load.

If any brown bear hunter wants to let me place about 40 rounds thru his already dead bear, in the interest of scientific knowledge, please contact me.

Regards,

Grizz

Griz: If we knew the make of the bullets that failed in Africa (Paco's trip?) you could pound a few of them in a side by side test. If the other brand (Cast Performance?) shatters where the Beartooth simply flattens you would have your answer. Got any 425 Piledriver Jrs to smack? I was thinking of dropping a weight down a tube onto the bullet to try and get the impact to each bullet as close as possible. The height of the tube or weight could be increased to increase the impact. Some math/physics type out there could then calculate the force of the strike. I was thinking I could find what I need at the local OSH, just not tell the clerk what I need all the stuff for.

It's never going to be the same thing, it doesn't tell me anything about how the bullet will act on game, it only tells me how it does on the hammer test. I don't think the bullet would bend going thru bone because there will be some give in front of it. There's no give on the concrete.

But I am encouraged by what I see on the larger bullets.

Grizz