For those of you interested in the wolf debate, this is an interesting twist. This isn't a man-made reintroduction, but a possible natural regrowth. This thing has been "missing" for many, many years. It'll be interesting to see how people react, if in fact our fabled Catamount (Eastern mountain lion) has returned. VT ain't what it used to be when this cat roamed the state. Given the attacks out West, I'm sure more than one person will have serious concerns. We do have lynx and bobcat...but this would be something slightly more substantial. Note, there have been many similar shighting in NH and Quebec (probably other places too). The warden's point at the end echoes that of other biologists: no definitive proof. I'd still love to see one tho...

"Pittsford woman says she spotted a catamount

April 5, 2006

PITTSFORD, Vt. --For better than a century there's been no confirmed sighting of a mountain lion in Vermont, commonly known in the region as a catamount. But a Pittsford woman is convinced that's what she and others saw in a snowy field this week.

Pam Smith said she's seen mountain lions from time she spent in Montana, where the big cats do thrive, and that's the animal that was roaming a field next to her house.

There were at least five other witnesses who pulled over to the side of the road and saw the animal, she said.

She went to investigate after seeing several motorists pull over, she said. She took binoculars with her as she walked in woods bordering the field.

"I'd say I was about 250 feet away," she said. "I could tell it was a powerful animal." She described it as having a "huge head" with gold and black coloring and a long, sweeping tail. "It was just milling around," she said. "I had a pretty good view."

Two men walked into the field after the cat wandered off to look for tracks in the snow but could not find any, Smith said.

One person took photos, she said.

A former state game warden, Tom Stearns of Castleton, said there are plenty of reports of catamounts, but state officials have never found anything to confirm their presence in the Green Mountains.

"You would think, with the sheer number of sightings, there would be some real evidence," he said. "Eventually, somebody would run one over or we'd have a carcass to work with. Or, somebody would take a picture of it or we would have scat or a track, something you could measure, some real evidence."

That is interesting. Our local mountian lions have made a good comeback here in Idaho and are one of the big game trophy's. Last year there was one in the next door yard. House was empty and we have a massive deer population living in my little town.

I'm not sure what else would draw them so near as we don't have any california joggers around.

Our nearest large town, Lewiston ID, has been seeing a lot more cougar on the town outskirts in the past few years.

That is interesting. Our local mountian lions have made a good comeback here in Idaho and are one of the big game trophy's. Last year there was one in the next door yard. House was empty and we have a massive deer population living in my little town.

I'm not sure what else would draw them so near as we don't have any california joggers around.



Have a feeling that if they do come back, there's little chance they'd be legal to hunt. At least, not for a long time. The thought is they were over-hunted the first time.

I shouldn't laff at the Cali joggers jab. Maybe just a little...on the inside.

Lots of warnings about backyard cats and dogs being fair game in the LA region. I hate to think how reactionary people might become in VT if we do get the big cat back.

A couple of Tucson golfers (DOK - pay attention!) were attacked by a rabid bobcat on a golf course yesterday. Severly bit one of them on the leg. They beat off and killed the animal with their golf clubs (didn't say if 9 iron or wedge! :p). Now, the one golfer has to endure a 5-shot regimen over the next several weeks, as the rabies test was positive.

We've had people stalked and a 7 year old girl drug off at Bartlett Lake by lions in the past dozen years or so. This is the first report of a bobcat attacking anyone.

The wolf reintroduction program in Ariz/NM has been curtailed for the time being and they think they (G&F and US Wildlife) have recaptured all those left from the aborted reintroduction along the state line. Seems they weren't faring too well, what with killing domestic livestock, being killed by other predators, starvation and those that practiced the "three S's".

Maybe it was one that the PA Game Commision left out that ran north

Maybe it was one that the PA Game Commision left out that ran north


Details? Sounds interesting...

Jonas, It would not surprise me at all if the catamount did make a comeback.
There have been tracks found here in NH also.
This is a clip from Author Margaret Gillespie, she is a Naturalist at the Squam Lakes
Natural Science Center, Holderness, NH, a private, nonprofit
organization opening a window to the natural world.
For more information visit their website or call (603) 968-
7194; Email: info@nhnature.org

Mountain lions are
found in 12 western states and the southern tip of Florida.
There have been random official reports of these cats in New
England states surrounding New Hampshire and DNA testing
on scat found in 2002 in NH’s Ossipee Mountains was
confirmed to be from a mountain lion. However, answers do
not come easily; it is unclear whether the NH animal was
originally a captive, released into the wild. JP

HMMM, wonder if we should import a herd of Ca. joggers.


Our Grizzlies may hanker for a change of diet!

HMMM, wonder if we should import a herd of Ca. joggers.


Our Grizzlies may hanker for a change of diet!

Wow...getting harsh in here!!

JP: Odd that the VT gang is so hard-pressed to agree the cats are here, if that kind of evidence exists just next door.

No doubt, politics are soon to take over.

Chatted with a guy once about his experience with a snared bobcat. 20-30lbs of pure fury. Can't imagine what something 5-10x the size would do, up close and personal.

Did read the article our Western friends passed on regarding the young girl. Dragged her out by her head. Father (and child) were exceptionally lucky to have scared the cat off.

One of my students tonight related a big cat experience: was camping out West. Woke up in the middle of the night, thought he heard something. Woke up the next morning to see paw prints circling his, and his friends sleeping bags.
Um, new shorts, please?

There has been a resurgence of the Mountain (nittany) Lion in as well as the Coyote here in PA. It seems to be an attempt to control (destroy) the Deer herd. The PA game commission denied the existance of the coyotes for a while and still denys the existance of ML's. It has been rumored that PA has traded turkeys for coyote's from western states, as well as ear tags with phone numbers that ring to insurance companies. People have also seen game commision personal releasing a "nuisance bear" from a small cage, only when it was left out it looked an awful lot like a mountain lion

Wow...getting harsh in here!!

JP: Odd that the VT gang is so hard-pressed to agree the cats are here, if that kind of evidence exists just next door.

No doubt, politics are soon to take over.

Chatted with a guy once about his experience with a snared bobcat. 20-30lbs of pure fury. Can't imagine what something 5-10x the size would do, up close and personal.

Did read the article our Western friends passed on regarding the young girl. Dragged her out by her head. Father (and child) were exceptionally lucky to have scared the cat off.

One of my students tonight related a big cat experience: was camping out West. Woke up in the middle of the night, thought he heard something. Woke up the next morning to see paw prints circling his, and his friends sleeping bags.
Um, new shorts, please?

I carry a S&W 19-4 .357 or 10mm auto as a side arm. I hunt the Kankamangus every year. There is no one for 100's of square miles. I like to hunt solo. I'm not going to be the "1st". Call me paranoid if you like! But... JP

I carry a S&W 19-4 .357 or 10mm auto as a side arm. I hunt the Kankamangus every year. There is no one for 100's of square miles. I like to hunt solo. I'm not going to be the "1st". Call me paranoid if you like! But... JP

Better safe than sorry, right? The people you could run into are likely far more dangerous!!

jonas

Better safe than sorry, right? The people you could run into are likely far more dangerous!!

jonas


You know it! Jonas, when do you want to go shooting! ( not to change subjects) JP

You know it! Jonas, when do you want to go shooting! ( not to change subjects) JP

Well, the weather might ruin my golf plans for this weekend... :)

The 11pm news has a story on the cat sighting. Evidently the Boarder Patrol (Northern) has a auto-cam that caught what appears to be a big cat on film. They showed it: grainy, distant. Hard to tell...

Id like to see the big cats come back. Let them get established. People using the wilderness should be prepared to deal with what should be there. If the Birkenstock wearing, granola munching, dreadlocked bunny huggers want to get out into the mountains, they should know that nature does not co-exist peacefully with humans. The circle of life isn't all warm and fuzzy. It has claws and fangs too and we aren't at the top of the food chain.

Fewer bunny huggers means more peace and quiet for those of us who understand that the wilderness is just that, wilderness and not a park. That you should not go if you can not be responsible for yourself and your actions.

Too bad that the little girl got grabbed. It's why I watch my kids like a hawk, whether here in town or out in the woods. Predators are everywhere. Good thing dad kept his head and they scared the cat off.

I really dislike the 3S rule. I really hate the fact that it is necessary because we humans cant get our poop together when we decide on the laws we make and how we enforce them. If the regulations were reasonable about defense of life, note I dont say property, and enforcement was thoughtful reasonable and evenhanded then I might feel better but I have no hope for people to ever do anything thoughtful, reasonable and evenhanded when you put grazing animals that look like prey onto a predators home range whether original or adopted home range and then we try to make money from those grazing animals. Or farm animals, or pets or we move out into the hillsides like in CA and then complain because the animals you displaced are hunting your little dog Fifi or your toddler and you are diddy-bopping cluelessly down the street with your iPod on like the world is clean and sanitized for your protection.

Let's let the big cats eat the stupid and the weak. Let Darwin do his thing through the cats. I have been dealing with too many stupid, irresponsible people this week.

They are gorgeous animals and incredible predators and I think it is a shame to hunt one. But that is just me. I have only seen two and it hasn't been for over 15 years since I was spending a lot of time in the Cascades. If it came down to it and I had to shoot one, then so be it. My line is in defense of my and my family's life, not for a trophy.

Done griping.

Go cats!

Let's let the big cats eat the stupid and the weak. Let Darwin do his thing through the cats. I have been dealing with too many stupid, irresponsible people this week.

They are gorgeous animals and incredible predators and I think it is a shame to hunt one.

Go cats!

Wow, that made me laff....

But I'm with you. People seem to forget that there is a natural order of things, and we tend to force imbalance wherever we go. Obviously, no one really wants people (hippie, or otherwise) to come to what would be a torturous demise at the end of a big cat's claws. However, a bit of common sense and resepct for a natural world that massively predates us would be nice, right?

I am dumb-founded when I get to watch the wildlife shows that focus on big cats. They are absolutely astounding. It gets a big unnerving when you realize how much of those things still live in the little domecticated versions we keep. Watch any domestic cat hunt and you can see the same stalking, the same movements. Eerie.

That being said, the (re)arrival of big cat's may be a nice jusitification (however rediculous) for a new handgun :) :)

jonas

You mean I get to buy ANOTHER handgun because the cats are coming back to Vermont?!?!?! How cool is THAT! :D
Thank you cats!

You mean I get to buy ANOTHER handgun because the cats are coming back to Vermont?!?!?! How cool is THAT! :D
Thank you cats!


Ahhh....the beauty of gun rational.... :)

Now, generally, one keeps a larger caliber revolver for such a purpose. So, picking up a Steyr M-40A1 (http://www.steyrarms.com/index.php?id=4) will require a bit more "rational", but I think I can pull it off.... :D

jonas

Why not go with the battle tested classic 1911 in 45 with some of those newfangled 300 grain bullets and a selection of 10 round clips, course a gun like that should really take advantage of some of the nice aftermarket parts too...

Why not go with the battle tested classic 1911 in 45 with some of those newfangled 300 grain bullets and a selection of 10 round clips, course a gun like that should really take advantage of some of the nice aftermarket parts too...


Someday. The Steyr's been calling my name for a while. As much as I like old, I learn towards the modern. I'd be interested to know what people think of SIG's 1911.

Latest news on the cats is that they're exceptionally smart. Been known to pick locks, open doors and drive cars. Definitly need a pistol....

Latest news on the cats is that they're exceptionally smart. Been known to pick locks, open doors and drive cars. Definitly need a pistol....

Jonas, I think you have your type of Cats mixed up. The ones that pick locks, open doors and drive cars are known as City Cats, they only have two legs and wear clothing. The ones being discussed here are the four legged furry ones that live in the Mountains and other wild places. :D

Lee L.

Jonas, I think you have your type of Cats mixed up. The ones that pick locks, open doors and drive cars are known as City Cats, they only have two legs and wear clothing. The ones being discussed here are the four legged furry ones that live in the Mountains and other wild places. :D

Lee L.


Lee!!

SHhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

Don't say that too loudly.

As far as certain people are concerned, these cats may pose the single greatest threat to humankind. Such cat-astrophies have bested entire countries. Even overrun governments. They almost beat us to the Moon! Eisenhowers "Containment Policy" was just tested on the Communists...large cats were the real enemy. StarWars was developed in oder to track the beasts. The Berlin Wall was a failed attemped at keeping them from clawing up nice West German furniture. The list goes on...

This pending near-apocalypse may only be prevented by the purchase of a Austrian made, .40cal, semi-auto pistol.

Yup, that's my story and I'm stickin to it!!

jonas

For some reason, here in the Adirondack mountains of NYS, the frequency of reported "big" cat sightings have been increasing along with the increase in "wolf" sightings. Having spent 40+ years here in the woods and never seen even a trace of these critters, I think that the rare occasional visiting city-slickers are are mistaking bobcats/martins/fishers/lynx and coyotes/coydogs for their bigger brethren. Im with MMichaelAK.

Dan

For some reason, here in the Adirondack mountains of NYS, the frequency of reported "big" cat sightings have been increasing along with the increase in "wolf" sightings. Having spent 40+ years here in the woods and never seen even a trace of these critters, I think that the rare occasional visiting city-slickers are are mistaking bobcats/martins/fishers/lynx and coyotes/coydogs for their bigger brethren. Im with MMichaelAK.

Dan

Dan, you make a very good point. The stories from out West I'm sure have made people a bit more paranoid.

Basically, until we have film, tracks, scat, or a carcass...few will be 100% convinced.

I work at a power plant ~ 25 miles north of Baton Rouge, LA. I have seen on two occasions on the power plant property (3400 acres) along the Mississippi Riverwhat was a brown color phase Florida Panther. Local USFWS agents did their best to convince me that I was mistaken. However, the animals I saw were both large cats (I'd say ~ 80 lbs in one case & about 100 lb range in the other) with a long tail.

Wonder why the local USFWS agents wanted me to believe I was mistaken? Anyway, there are a few out there.

Being in the Northwest I have seen several Mountian Lions/Cougar/Catamount, which ever name is used in your area. Buy my Cougar license every year along with deer, bear, elk tags. This last hunting season there was so much Cougar track and bear track in the area I hunt and so few deer. Hopefully, this year they will have moved on and the deer will come back. If you ever have one scream near you I gaurantee you will have the hair up on your neck and be looking everywhere. Real joy when you are walking out of the woods after dark and hear that.

Have a Mtn. lion call for my caller. Instructions say to only use it when you don't plan on hunting or calling in anything else. Sounds like the world's biggest cat fight to me! :eek:

I always thought they were extinct. I knew Vermont Univ. was called the Catamounts but didn't think they currently existed, sort of like Penn St. with its Nittany Lions or Michigan and the Wolverine. I guess both were pretty common at one time. You never can tell what's going to turn up. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

I always thought they were extinct. I knew Vermont Univ. was called the Catamounts but didn't think they currently existed, sort of like Penn St. with its Nittany Lions or Michigan and the Wolverine. I guess both were pretty common at one time. You never can tell what's going to turn up. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Cal,

Good the hear from Northern neighbors. Well, the border patrol did catch one on camera. So, they might be up your way too!

Yup, the Catamounts are the UVM sports teams. We're big fans down here. See: Habs 1993 Stanley Cup et John LeClair, Tampa Bay 2004 Stanley Cup et Martin St.Louis....oh and a minor upset of Syracuse in the NCAA basketball tourney last year.

cheers

jonas

they have been sighted here in the midwest too. the MDC tried to say there where no confirmed sightings and everyone just saw a dog or something else. but now they at least admit there just might be one or two. i got news for them, there's more than a couple now. it will be interesting over the next couple years to see how they handle things as the poop hits the mechanical wind devise.

faucettb,

Hey,

I see that your are living in Peck. My parents lived there in the early 40's and in fact I was conceived on Bobbitt Bench although I was born in Lewiston

Well, this doesn't help anything:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/16/mt.lion.attack.ap/index.html

And I had just posted a comment about the possible fallout of wolves showing up in Boulder...guess the cats got there first.

I've hiked in the same area. Most dangerous thing I ever encounted was a rattler.

As this part of VT and Boulder share quite a few attributes, this will be interesting to follow. Lots of animal rights folks, lots of people who like to be outdoors...wonder how this will play out.

jonas

Wondering why this ain’t on My neck-of the-Woods, just wondering.

Jonas wrote:
“One of my students tonight related a big cat experience: was camping out West. Woke up in the middle of the night, thought he heard something. Woke up the next morning to see paw prints circling his, and his friends sleeping bags.
Um, new shorts, please?”
Been there, twice. My case, it was grizzly. Didn’t wake up and found the tracks trying to give my shorts a break.

Jonas,
Don’t shoot either .40 or .45 acp but, know people who have dispatched a fair number of deer with both. They claim the .40 works better.

Understand, I have lived with cougars, in the yard and on the porch. Cougar kills within 100 feet of my place, and mating scrapes within 100 yards (means my place overlapped two cougars’ ranges). Have been kept company by cougar while fishing, had a lynx used to run alongside my bike every day (didn’t officially have no lynx back then but, I got to see and know this one pretty well). And I have hunted cougar, one on one. Bottom line is I like and respect them, but they are way more dangerous than most people suspect or this thread has hinted.

As far as states admitting they have wild cougar, will mention Illinois and Michigan.
Illinois has had constant reports of sightings, no evidence to convince those that claim expertise from an office. One finally got hit by a train; conclusive evidence. Now the controversy is whether they were coming back or ever left.
Northern part of the lower peninsula of Michigan been seeing cougar for a while. Locals claiming that they followed I-75 down from the upper peninsula and the state government claiming that they are escaped pets.
Back when I was growing up, in both states; in Illinois we knew we still had a few panthers, and would have felt “statistically honored” to have run across one. In northern Michigan, neither hide nor hair nor rumor not tale of cougar. Place where we liked to take our significant others, to commune with nature and, hopefully, become more significant; is now over run with cougars so bad that it ain’t safe to leave either the path or the group. Sends cold chills up my spine. Had wanted things for the next generation’s next generation to be way better than they was for us.

Balance is the key. For those of European or Asian ancestry, Bruce Lee summed it up best by stating that balance was when one’s center of weight was between one’s feet. Our Navajo compatriots have another word for it. Usually is translated as harmony, but literally means (I understand) “to walk in beauty”. Think the Navajo have the better of it.

If you ever have one scream near you I gaurantee you will have the hair up on your neck and be looking everywhere. Real joy when you are walking out of the woods after dark and hear that.

Boys and girls, take ol' SureShot at his word!!

When I lived in L.A., Calif. (for 35 years), my wife and I had a vacation cabin at about 6,000 feet altitude in the southern Sierra in southern Tulare County. Once one night, when I was up there alone, I'd walked from our place about four hundred yards to our nearest neighbor's for dinner.

About midnight, I was walking home. His an my property were bordered on two sides by the Sequoia Nat'l. Forest. Rather than walk "long way" on the old dirt road, I decided to cut up through the forest to reach my fence.

About half way there, I heard the most horrible "scream" I'd ever heard! Perhaps 40 or 50 yards away in the forest. Truly, it sounded as if a woman were being mudered in the most barbaric manner!

The hair on my neck and head stood straight up!! Scared me half to death! After a couple of seconds, I realized it was a mountain lion. I was carrying my Colt's Lightweight Commander .45 ACP, and believe me, it came into my hand.

I moved to my fence, crossed over, and got into my cabin without incident, but I didn't go back out that night. I never forgot that blood freezing "scream!"

Once you hear it, you'll never forget it, either!

FWIW. L.W.

This was posted on another forum earlier this year, you don't always know how close they are.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v185/lounrw/Animal%20Photos/normal_Jeff-Trail-camera-pic.jpg

[QUOTE=Sure-Shot]This was posted on another forum earlier this year, you don't always know how close they are.

Where? When? Any details on this?

Wow...

Now that's a neat photo Sure-Shot...trail cam? I suspect the deer didn't make it.

Lots of common names for the same cat:puma,cougar,panther,mtn lion,catamount & lion. The name I learned in Wildlife Mgt & Mammology at the Univ of AZ: family: Felidae ,genus: Felis, species:concolor.Since that time lots of scientific splitters have happened on the scene adding many new subspecies of the same animal with their names added,many occuring in areas where they were extinct have migrated from the western united states where cat populations have increased markedly due to misguided know nothing know it alls getting them listed as endangered species and protected.

All,

I ask again for this agust body to school me. I live in central Texas. We call 'em panthers or mountain lions around here.

At the tender age of 50 (having spent much time in the woods) I have heard one and seen none. Also, I have heard not one story of one making a human or animal kill. Apparently, though, they are numerous.

I'm not trying to be smarta**, but I just don't get it. What is the problem with these cats?

Be nice, now. I'm prepared to take some heat for being uninformed, but don't expect that any flames are warranted here.

mtn lions are bigtime killers w/o any natural enemies except man,they're attracted to death sounds of dying animals so always be cautious when hunting and dropping a pig,deer,elk,etc so you don't become a victim.I've seen a mated pair in the Klamath NF and spoke to a hunter who said he and his partner were stalked in their San Bernardino NF campsite,no amount of yelling deterred the cat,not even a round from his weatherby rifle it just kept advancing until he shot it in the neck then it veered off heading down to a stream a couple of hundred yards away where it died.They're protected in Calif even though people have been killed and a boy was drug off by a mtn lion near Boulder,CO about a week ago and rescued from the cat.I graduated from college as a wildlife mgt biologist and ended up as as as probation officer but for relaxation I backpacked,fished , hunted and went 4x4ing & I've always been armed with a firearm.Sureshot that photo was indeed on another forum and the report was it was edited from 2 photos combined to make one.

rifleman777,
Hard to tell how thick they are because not being seen is pretty much what they are good at. I’ve seen them all across SE Idaho over the last 30 odd years. One thing to have them tag along to the fishing hole, another to see one crouched just above where your friends are heading, another to have them on the back porch trying to take your dog. My current pasture was in an overlap of two cougars’ territories when my horses moved in; mating scrape about 100 yards outside my fence, deer kill within 100 feet. Last sighting was from my pasture.
Hard to tell how much game they take. Have read that they tend to bury and return to their kills. What I have seen are pretty thoroughly eaten carcasses. Suspect they eat what they kill. There have been a number of human attacks but they are not usually covered in the news. Just heard of two in western and northern Idaho, happened years ago but not covered; and read yesterday that the Bolder attack was the fourth there this year.
They stalk humans a lot, but aren’t seen; stalked human unaware and they usually don’t attack. They are dangerous until they bleed out, bobcats too. When hit, they take off and then lay ready to pounce on their back trail. Bled out in that crouch is how they are frequently found (my, and friends’, experience).
Only natural enemy is the wolf. Wolves will run them out of an area. Man is so little of a threat, takes so little of their prey and provides such tempting morsels in well fed dogs and stock, that I suspect they see us as more of a wash than a threat. Also entertainment.

silvertip cats usually kill a deer and eat into the abdominal area,scratch up partially covering the kill and come back again then leave it for bears,or other scavengers.If the prey source isn't abundent they may use the whole deer or elk.Today I read about a car vs female mtn lion on the 241 toll road in Orange County,CA weighing 200 lbs that was covered so passing motorists wouldn't be startled by the sight of the dead predator we have far too many mtn lions in this state because an AR activist convinced the know nothing know it all liberal idiot voters to approve protection of the rare endangered mtn lions in fact the mayor of our city made a statement in our local paper that there were no lions in the area cause he'd never seen any and if there were any they'd be in the San Jacinto Mtns not the San Bernardino Mtns or National Forest which is on the borders of the City of Yucaipa,an article in the same paper over a year ago pointed out that the night security cams at Yucaipa HS picked up 3 different mtn lions prowling around the campus at night.Politicians are so much hot air!

kiddekop,
Don’t think we have us much of a disagreement. I wander through the area and, occasionally, notice something. What you describe is very much like what I have seen. Fresh kill, wasn’t there yesterday, looks like a hunter in reverse; guts gone, rest left in place. Next day, most meat pretty much gone. Have stepped over some recent kills reduced to skin and bones; just naturally assumed they belonged to the cougar 50’ right (as per usual). Cougars follow people in their area as a rule. You go into their area regular, the two get familiar with each other. Kill still had meat, or cougar and I didn’t have a history, I would have done different. Also carried a good .44 magnum. Suspect she was losing sleep wondering how such a bad fisherman could be so fat. Especially as I left carp on the bank for her.

Also like to mention that cougars and people don’t agree on which parts of a fresh kill are choice. From their point of view, we kill something, we leave the choice portions to them. Surely the brighter members have noticed this. Have had both wolf (native) and cougar company when hunting. This is an unsubstantiated speculation. Haven’t noticed either running game into me. Have had game come in to me, just didn’t notice either wolf our cougar driving them my way. Attacks over kills? All species got their 5%. Something to remember.

Sorry to hear that, it was posted on one with no reference to wizzardry, Dang and I thought it was great.

Rifleman, we had no real problem with them till recently when the uneducated smart ones prohibited dog hunting or use of traps. No baiting either. Now we have them growing in numbers and nothing to slow them down. They are decimating our deer and elk herds. The game department has not been real happy that they have come into populated areas and then pets start dissapearing. They are a very good preditor. Children look like prey. I have heard a couple of reports of Cougar hunting in packs in Eastern Washington (never heard of that before) I do know that when they move into an area forget hunting deer they will be moving away from the area, or be dead. In an area I hunt I would see 10 or so deer every day, last year I saw lots of Cougar track and know of 2 seen walking down a dirt road, 1 of which was shot, as for deer in 7 days I saw 4 and no fawns at all.

As an aside, I had to take one injection per day for fourteen days, in the abdomen below the belly button. This was many moons ago. Now you take only five? That is progress. I remember being told how black and blue my abdomen was after about the ninth day. I hear you can get "booster shots" later as well. Bandito

kiddekop,
Don’t think we have us much of a disagreement. I wander through the area and, occasionally, notice something. What you describe is very much like what I have seen. Fresh kill, wasn’t there yesterday, looks like a hunter in reverse; guts gone, rest left in place. Next day, most meat pretty much gone. Have stepped over some recent kills reduced to skin and bones; just naturally assumed they belonged to the cougar 50’ right (as per usual). Cougars follow people in their area as a rule. You go into their area regular, the two get familiar with each other. Kill still had meat, or cougar and I didn’t have a history, I would have done different. Also carried a good .44 magnum. Suspect she was losing sleep wondering how such a bad fisherman could be so fat. Especially as I left carp on the bank for her.

Also like to mention that cougars and people don’t agree on which parts of a fresh kill are choice. From their point of view, we kill something, we leave the choice portions to them. Surely the brighter members have noticed this. Have had both wolf (native) and cougar company when hunting. This is an unsubstantiated speculation. Haven’t noticed either running game into me. Have had game come in to me, just didn’t notice either wolf our cougar driving them my way. Attacks over kills? All species got their 5%. Something to remember.If you're out and want to see if any mtn lions are nearby give out with a deep somewhat muffled cough they'll respond & get your neck hair up time to lock and load.