If this has been covered, let me know, But a quick search says not really...

Piggybacking on the "Katrina guns" thread (thanks, RS), perhaps some discussion of guns and insurance isn't a bad idea. Most people here probably have theirs covered by homeowner's policies. Many, like me, might need to add a rider to their renter's policy. Some general questions:

Are your guns covered?
Who's holding your paperwork?
Is it safe from natural disasters?
Duplicate paperwork?
Does your state registry have adequate paperwork for in recovery in necessary?
Anything I've missed...

Mods, feel free to nix this if it's been covered. But the topic could probably use some weighing in, especially for those who might be newer owners and haven't worked thru this stuff. As I've gotten more invloved, my collection grown fairly quickly. Some guns (older, gifts) aren't worth too much. But in total, I have at least a couple grand (maybe more?) worth of guns, cleaning stuff and ammo not included. My guns are now among my most valuable possesions ($$$wise).

jonas

Well, I'm glad to see this topic. Regarding coverage, I've always been told (whatever company I was covered by and whether renter's or homeowner's insurance) that my guns are only covered if I specifically schedule them. That means make, model, caliber, serial number, and accoutrements (scope or other expensive/non-standard sights, etc.). Is this what everyone has to do? Does anyone balk at (any of) those requirements? BTW, I'm not presently an NRA member, though I have been at various times in the past. I can't recall how their firearms incurance works.

I had to get a separate rider for my firearms, and it's not cheap. You must have good records. What I've done is I bought some software written for firearms. It allowed me to document all information on each firearm as well as attach photos (multiple) of each gun. I made sure to get a shot of the serial numbers as well. You could make notes regarding work done to each piece and add value for scopes, mounts, etc. The S/W also keeps a running tap of value so as you add or sell from your collection, it updates what it's worth. I keep copies on CD in several locations, safety deposit box, good friend, and 1 family member, as well as give a copy to my insurance man.
To cover my butt on all my other stuff, I just take pics of my room showing all my loading gear, shooting and hunting stuff, etc, and keep it with the other CD. My insurance man said as long as I have pics of the stuff, I'm good to go should anything happen. Hope that helps

HP:

Exactly what I'm talking about! Thanks. What's the detail on the software? That sounds interesting.

Just found this:

http://armscollectors.com/collectionrecords.htm

jonas

Jonas, The company who wrote my S/W is now out of business sorry to say. I picked it up on EBay of all places in the sporting goods/hunting section. There may be some alternative there still. Look there and see. If you can't find anything, PM me, I'll see what we can come up with.

Of those on your list, this one looks pretty good...
NM Gun Collector Software

I purchased the max extra coverage I could obtain through my rental policy with USAA. They didn't ask for any specific information. The only downside is that my collection now exceeds the max insurance I could purchase (I suppose this would be one of those "if you could only have X number of guns, what would you choose" cases...). I keep a record of each gun, serial number, optics, etc. in a spread sheet I have on my home and work computers, plus on a back-up disk at work. I have photos of several of the guns, but I need to take photos of them all and burn them to a couple of CD's to keep in separate locations.

I purchased the max extra coverage I could obtain through my rental policy with USAA. They didn't ask for any specific information. The only downside is that my collection now exceeds the max insurance I could purchase (I suppose this would be one of those "if you could only have X number of guns, what would you choose" cases...). I keep a record of each gun, serial number, optics, etc. in a spread sheet I have on my home and work computers, plus on a back-up disk at work. I have photos of several of the guns, but I need to take photos of them all and burn them to a couple of CD's to keep in separate locations.


My agent said the rider would only be approved if I have the collection appraised and signed for by a shop owner/dealer. Interesting that the tens of thousands I'm covered for in stereo equip., furniture, etc, doesn't require anything more than me saying it's in my house.

In the last 15min, I've downloaded a couple demos of 'collection' software. Fairly straightforward. An Excel spead sheet could do all the same stuff.

Common theme so far from y'all: multiple copies of inventory, multiple locations.

Going through the NRA is the simplest thing. Just ask for the $$ amount you think you need, and pay the premium.

Would your insurance pay off if your collection was confiscated by authorites? **** of thing to ask, but in light of Katrina.......

Finally, Here is a topic where I really believe I can offer some reliable and authoritative information. I'm a Chartered Property Casualty Underwriter and Certified Insurance Counselor - that means I've had the best training available in the industry. I've been selling personal lines insurance for over 18 years. I hold myself out to be an expert in this field.

First, to determine what insurance you have on your guns, you MUST READ YOUR POLICY. Don't be intimidated by it. It can be a little bit tricky, the way things are organized but it is NOT written in "legalese". Insurance policies, by regulation, are written at the eighth grade level or below. All policies can be slightly different and vary from company to company or state to state. YOU MUST READ YOUR POLICY to determine what YOUR SPECIFIC POLICY covers and doesn't cover.

Having stated my disclaimer, every insurance policy I have ever sold for any of about 25 insurance companies ranging from large national carriers to small regional carriers has been virtually identical on the coverage provided for firearms. A "renters insurance" policy is a type of "homeowners" policy and there is no difference between the two as far as coverage for firearms.

Here's some facts about the coverage provided by a standard homeowners/renters policy. This is a nationwide standard but state specific or company specific exceptions are always possible.

1. Your guns ARE covered right along with all your other personal property up the coverage limit of your policy. If your policy says you have $100,000 of coverage on your personal property - that includes guns and you could submit a claim for and receive a settlement for the full $100,000 for strictly damage to or loss of firearms.

2. The ONLY limitation for coverage on guns is a THEFT limitation. Industry standard is that guns are only covered for up to $2,500 total if they are lost due to THEFT. This $2,500 limit does NOT apply if the guns are lost in a fire, tornado, or any other covered cause. But, if your guns are stolen, the insurance company's settlement will max out at $2,500 AFTER the application of your policy deductible.

3. MOST policies only covere personal property (guns included) for specified perils, or "causes of loss". If your guns are lost or damaged by some cause not specifically described as covered, then you don't have any coverage. The typical covered perils under a good homeowners policy include: fire, smoke, explosion, hail, windstorm, THEFT, vehicles, some water damage and few other things that are not likely to ever damage a gun. NOTE: FLOOD is NOT a covered cause of loss under a basic homeowners insurance policy.

So, the above is what you get if you just have a run of the mill, plane-jane, homeowners policy. Now, what do you do if you want MORE coverage on your guns (especially for theft where you have the $2500 limitation), or if you want BETTER coverage on your guns (to cover things like flood, dropping them in the river, termites, or whatever).

1. For MORE coverage as far as dollar value, you have two options. First, you can pay an extra premium to increase the blanket limitation for theft of firearms. That is, you can increase the $2.500 theft limitation to $5,000 or $10,000 and up. $10,000 is probably the max the insurance company will be willing to offer in this manner. This is a very little used option because it's relatively expensive and doesn't improve your coverage that much. Generally the coverage costs about $3.00 for every $100 in increase over the basic $2,500 that comes automatically. Pretty pricey, but no schedule is required.

The second option is to "SCHEDULE" the guns on an "endorsement" or a "floater". Scheduling the guns avoids the $2,500 theft limitation and also gets broader coverage for things like flood and dropping them in the lake. When your guns are "scheduled", you actually provide the insurance company with an inventory of each individual gun you wish to insure and provide information about that gun including a description (preferrably with serial number) and a dollar value. It is very rare that an insurance company would require any formal appraisals whatsoever unless any single gun is to be insured for more than $5,000 or so. Usually they just want a list describing each gun and a dollar value - that's it. Cost of this scheduled coverage varies but usually costs in the range of $1.50 to $2.50 per $100 of coverage. If you schedule some of your guns, you still have the basic coverage to apply to any of the other guns that you didn't schedule.

2. Now, what if you want BETTER coverage on your guns so that they are covered for things besides the fire, theft, and windstorm coverage you get on all your personal property? Here again you have two options. First, you can buy what's called "Special Personal Property" coverage. It expands the scope of the coverage on all of your property, including guns, to cover any cause of damage unless specifically excluded. However, you will still have the $2,500 theft limitation so you won't have solved that problem.

The other option for better coverage on your guns is again, to "SCHEDULE" the guns. By specifically insuring individual guns, you not only have more coverage on them, but you will also pick up coverage for flood, dropping them in the lake, mysterious disappearance, and just about anything else that can happen to them.


WHAT ABOUT CLAIMS?

So what do you need if your guns are lost or destroyed? Again, you have to read your policy for the specific requirements, but without exception, every policy I have ever seen has ONLY three basic requirements. First, you must give the insurance company a detailed list of the lost or damaged property. Second, you must save the damaged property or its residue, if any, for inspection by the insurance company. Third, you must report to the police if a crime may have been committed. That's it. I have NEVER seen a policy that requires you to have receipts or proof of ownership to successfully collect an insurance settlement. If anybody tells you that they are either untrained, mistaken, or lying. If a claims adjuster tells you the must have receipts or proof of ownership before they pay a claim CONTACT YOUR STATE INSURANCE COMMISSIONER!

Having said that, if you do have a claim, things are going to go MUCH EASIER for you if you do have receipts, photographs, serial numbers, appraisals, or any other documentation about the guns. Another benefit of buying scheduled coverage on your guns is that the insurance company will already have a list of your major firearms inventory and settling claims only comes down to you signing a proof of loss form and them signing a bank draft. If you have any collector's pieces in your inventory, it will be beneficial to have an appraisal on those guns. Once the gun is stolen, how are you going to prove it was in mint condition and worth top dollar? The insurance company may only want to pay for average condition and how are you going to prove them wrong? Best to have any collectors guns appraised before they are lost. Also, if you tell an insurance company you had thousands of dollars of guns stolen but have no receipts or serial numbers or proof of ownership, they are going to get suspicious real fast. That doesn't mean they won't pay up, just that they may drag their feet, and question everything you tell them from there on. Trust me, things will go much better for you if you have some kind of records or evidence of what was lost, stolen, or destroyed.


Hope some of this helps and isn't too long winded. There's alot more I could go into but I don't want to make it too complicated.

The NRA has arranged for a plan available to members that provides pretty good coverage. I think you can get coverage there at a rate $1.66 per $100 and I think there is no need to provide them a detailed schedule if you are wanting to keep that information private. Sounds like a pretty good deal although I've had no personal experience or heard any reports on how good it is when you've had a claim. But, if things go wrong I would hope the NRA would negotiate on your behalf.

Any questions - I'd be happy to help any way I can!

Much appreciated! I pinned the thread, so it won't get lost.

Would your insurance pay off if your collection was confiscated by authorites? **** of thing to ask, but in light of Katrina.......


No.

Here's the text of the EXCLUSION found in most homeowners policies AND scheduled personal property floaters:

"3. Governmental Action

Governmental action means the destruction, confiscation or seizure of covered property by order of any governmental or public authority.

This exclusion does not apply to such acts ordered by any governmental or public authority that are taken at the time of a fire to prevent its spread, if the loss caused by fire would be covered under this policy."

Kart:

Wow....that's just great info. Thanks a ton. We'll all benefit from the knowledge. It's hadn't occured to me that someone out there might be in the bid'ness. Lucky us!

Again, big thanks!

jonas

You're welcome. I really can't answer many gun questions `cause I'm no expert on that subject. So, it's a pleasure for me to finally be able to contribute something worthy and beneficial to many here who have helped me out with their gun expertise.

Kart29;
Wish you worked for my insurance company. I have homeowners insurance and have to carry a "rider policy" for my guns. And they will only carry some of them because they say I have too many to properly insure. I carry NRA insurance on the rest. I called my company after reading this post to ask about more insurance on personal property. No problem, If I want to pay the added expense. Asked if guns were personal property and was told yes and no. company can see no reason a "private citizen" should or would want to own over 50 guns. So back to rider policy. Now about reloading equipment, The first company we had came to inspect fuse box and take some pics of other things and when he seen the ammo and reloading supplies I had, I was cancelled. They really gave no reason but basically said"According to Michigan law, My home could be considered as a hazard to public safety due to large amounts of explosives stored on premises." I sold off or used most of the powder and only keep around 10-15 pounds of smokeless and 5 pounds of black now. Guess there are laws about how much of this stuff you can legally have. Better check with YOUR company as I think things change state to state. I still do not have my guns insured for 1/2 of what they are worth. I can't afford to. I do have 2 large safes for them and keep them in the basement in a cement block room with my powder and primers. House will really have to burn to burn the basement too. No worry of floods up here, Thank God. Very very good posting going here. Hope it helps some people out. God Bless Steve

I lost most of my firearms due to a fire several years ago, I learned some very good lessions because of that.
While my firearms were stored in a "gun locker" it was not air tight so the steam and smoke damage did more harm than the actual fire. When a building is on fire the water that is sprayed on it turns to steam the steam reacts with the soot nad smoke and turns into acid. This acid ruins gun barrels I lost all but my stainless barreled guns because the acid in the steam pitted the barrels down three or four inches inside and out. The insurance adjuster decided that rebarreling was just to expencive and since none of them were what is called collectible I would only recieve the "Market Value" of them, He took them to a dealer to be "appraised" I ended up with half the actual replacement value even though my policy was for replacement value.
I no longer do business with that insurace company or that agent who caved every time I had a complaint about the "adjuster"who I felt was ripping me off, My ammo was all condemed because of water and smoke damage several cases of pistol and about three hundred rounds of variouse rifle calibers I ended up getting five hundred dollars and three months later in a small gun shop in another city I found for sale .357 Rem 125 grn SJHP's and .45 ACP 185 %230 grn JHP's in baggies no boxes they were all smoke and water damaged but it was all new ammo. according to the clerkthey got it from an insurance sale. That was the same calibers I lost due to the fire same bullet wts also.

All my handloading equipt was removed by the cleaning people at the direction of the Adjuster, I was told to make a list with the replacement value I was catching on by then, I listed every little piece that I was able to remember got a cabella's shooters catalog to get the prices it went over 5000 bucks I told the adjuster and funny thing was even though he told me all that stuff had been buried, about a week after I told him what replacement was going to cost I got most of it backThe scales and powder measures were melted and the die boxes were all gone and My mec was carbon covered and the shot and powder bottles had melted but I figured I had it mostly back and they did pay to replace things that were gone.

Now my guns are all in a fire proof safe rated to 3000 degrees for thirty minutes I have replaced many of them and am still looking for some. Or equivalents.
Ammunition and components are kept in a seperatte room in the garage built for there storage. I have everything documented and photographed in a fire proof locked box

backwoodswalker,

Some insurance companies do have a real problem with guns. I know of one major east coast based company that has a stag as their logo that will non-renew every policy we try to schedula ANY gun on. A good independant agent can help there because there's bound to be some insurance company out there that will cover your guns. Also, many insurance company homeowners policy underwriters are scared, timid, little ladies who are terrified of big bad guns. Sometimes you just need a good agent to shop around for you.

Ernest,

One thing about replacement cost valuation provisions in your policy - you have to actually replace the property with like kind and quality BEFORE you get your replacement cost settlement. So, the insurance company gives you the "Actual Cash Value" settlement up front and then when you bring in the receipts to show that you actually replaced the property, then they pay the difference between the ACV they already paid and the actual replacement cost from your receipt. Sometimes the insurance company willl work with you on this provision, but that's the way the policies read. I'm not saying it's right - just that's the way it is.

I have my firearms collection insured through State Farm as a rider on my home owners insurance. I provide them with written documentation with all the information on each piece with as much discription that I can give them. I have 46 firearms covered with an evaluation of $21,000 for the total
collection and it cost me $103.00 every six months. I feel this is a very fair price for the coverage that I am getting.

Panhandlepr

Backwoodstalker, there is no reason you can't do some serious shopping around for coverage that suits your needs. You will find a number of good options out there.

Thanks Kart29! I used to be in the business as an agent that specialized in property insurance, and I was going to have to post a long response to the question, but I have nothing to add to the excellent information you presented.

Definitely going to talk to State Farm. I carry a rider policy where I am now for 50,000 for my "good guns" I furnished them with pictures, serial numbers and documented current values. Costs me the tune of $943 per year. The rest I carry a 10,000 policy through NRA. I asked about replacement insurance and was told because alot of these are no longer available, They could not carry a replacement policy. The old pre-war colts and springfields I have would be hard to replace. I have some Neidner rifles that are true one of a kind. When I was a kid a neighbor was a good friend of his and I had the chance to meet him as a kid. Have 5 rifles he gave me, And a custom stocked model 12 winnie. That make could really carve wood. I will check around for insurance in different places. I wonder if I can have my collection insured through a whole diffrent company and still have my home through where I am now. They treat me really well here. Just expensive on guns. God Bless Steve

"3. Governmental Action
Governmental action means the destruction, confiscation or seizure of covered property by order of any governmental or public authority.

Am I the only person who reads that as "even if the order to seize firearms is unlawful, we still won't cover it" ?
Interesting that they wouldn't include "lawful order" in that definition.

Nope...you're not the only one. Government action is government action - lawful or not, it's still excluded.

But really, how can the insurance company be expected to determine if guns were taken lawfully or not? Insurers are in the business of writing checks to pay fortuitous losses, not determining matters of law in relation to government conduct.

Anyway, this exclusion applies to ALL property, not just guns. So, they didn't have guns in mind when writing this exclusion and they aren't making any kind of valuation on the acceptability of government confiscating firearms.

A guy at my club had a collection of very fine, very expensive shotguns, that all got stolen while he was away on vacation. The cops caught the thief, but didn't recover any guns. He had only ordinary homeowner's insurance. Total didn't cover one of the fine old double barrel shotguns. Ouch.

The judge ordered the thief to pay restitution, and a few checks actually did arrive, but then stopped when the thief appealed his conviction.

So this guy went to court to see the appeal, and the thief drew an anti-gun judge. The judge threw out the appeal, but he also threw out the restitution requirement, permanently. The guy started to protest to the judge that loss of restitution was unfair, but the judge cut him off and said it was "his own fault for not carrying enough insurance on the guns", and said that with any further complaint he would hold him in contempt of court!

No guns, little insurance, no restitution. Triple ouch.

So, now, this guy is the biggest proponent of gun registration I know, saying that if all guns were registered then he might get his back if they're ever resold.

Much appreciated! I pinned the thread, so it won't get lost.

how do you "pin" a thread? anyone can reply. thanks

A "pinned" or "sticky" thread stays at the top of the subforum's list. It's not the same as a "Locked" thread which you can't reply to. A thread can be pinned or locked or both, but only the administrator or moderators can do it.

Hope that's clear.

Bye
Jack

thank you Jack

The guy started to protest to the judge that loss of restitution was unfair, but the judge cut him off and said it was "his own fault for not carrying enough insurance on the guns", and said that with any further complaint he would hold him in contempt of court!


I could easily see a smear campaign based on this case if the judge comes up for re-election.
Not just guns, but any stolen property.

The Lee shooters program avaliable from them or most shooting supplies has a ballistic calculator AND a fill out form to list firearms etc. I use that program and print it out for off site storage. Very good pproduct for the money!

Wow I just joined this forum today and am all ready learning a lot! Thanks guys. I'm going shoping for a new GUN safe in the morning!!:D

Am I the only person who reads that as "even if the order to seize firearms is unlawful, we still won't cover it" ?
Interesting that they wouldn't include "lawful order" in that definition.

So when Hilary becomes president which seems as sure as the bear's bowel movement in the woods and passes a bill outlawing guns with detachable mags will the insurance companies cover that loss?

Hi Guys, I worked in the insurance industry for over 30 years here in Saskatchewan as Senior Adjuster for the last few years and before that I was an adjuster handling general and agro claims. I am not sure what the wordings are in the U.S. but I dealt with many claims for stolen, lost rifles and other guns.
Here in Canada many of the companies give you replacement cost coverage and as long as they were legally kept and registered. Unless there is a special wording that limits your coverage on guns. Just over 3 years ago I was broken into and then they kicked in the door to my room where I store my guns. They stole my browning citori which I bought many years before. This shotgun was made in Belgium and you could no longer get them there unless it was a special ordered. So rather than wait up to 5 years I took a Super Black Eagle ll and my deductible was waived as well. I know that I lost a lot in dollars but the Browning was soon forgot after gettting used to SBEll

In answer to keeping your inventory safe, email yourself a list to a web based mail account like yahoo, hotmail or gmail. If you're worried about prying eyes encrypt the file. If you are sending pictures it may take a series of emails. I entered mine on an excel spread sheet, because I use excel regularly and I am familiar with it. You could use word or even notepad for the description and information. You can also download Open Office (it's free) and use it. It works about as good as MSOffice. I sent the email to 3 different accounts.