Something has been bugging me for quite some time and while I kinda hinted at in other posts, I want to make it the single subject matter for this one.

I've taken note, watching other people shoot, their various operations of actions on guns and I'm curious as to why they do what they do.

Start with bolt actions. "Fast second shot" is the resounding cry these days in advertisements for the short actions and short magnums yet one thing really bothers me. 99% of the time, I watch people shooting a bolt and they drop the rifle off their shoulder to cycle the action, sometimes as low as waist level. This means not only re-aquiring the target in the sights but also reshouldering the rifle into firing position. Now, unless you have a really short LOP or a really long action, there is no way in h*ll that bolt is going to smack you in the eye if you keep the gun shouldered in the firing position while working the action. This has been bugging me since I went into the service and watched other recruits lift their head and twist their body up, in prone position, to work the bolt on the old 03A3's we had to use (wish I would have snagged a few of them!). Standing position, same thing, rifle dropped down, most times to waist level, to cycle. There was only one other fellow besides myself, from MT, who did not do this and we litterally chewed up the competition not only on accuracy but miserably on time.

Watching the history channel, I saw a vintage video with the 03 going against the garand. Same thing here, the grunt firing the 03 dropped the rifle down or twisted his head and body up to cycle the bolt. Granted there's no way to keep up with the garand no how but nonetheless, there was not only a lot of time lost but also raising the head and body up means increasing your exposure to enemy fire too!

OLN or one of the networks showed people shooting different rifles and several using lever actions also dropped the butt off their shoulder to work the action. Noticed the same thing with some people shooting pump shotguns. Recently read an on-line article about hunting the "big five" where the author said he preferred using only a double rifle because he didn't have to loose his sight picture between the first & second shot.

My intent here is not to flame any one, I just want to know why people don't cycle manual actions from the shoulder. Personally, when I come into firing position, I don't want to come out of it until the shooting is done or I'm out of ammo. This is one of my biggest gripes on the AR15/M16, there is no way not to come out firing position to work the action manually. Granted, to the best of my knowledge, animals aren't shooting back yet but in combat, this BS can cost you or your buddies life.

I don't recall off hand where I read it, but another article the author said something to the effect, "the short action of the ... allows you to quicky cycle the action and bring the rifle back into firing position..." Why drop the rifle out of firing position in the first place??? I dang sure ain't no super hero but h*ll, even bolt with a strait handle can be readily cycled from the shoulder with a little practice on the motion.

My question extends to wheel guns too. I'm not a big fan of DA guns, fine and dandy if you're in a SHTF condition and you need to get in the air super fast but it still does not trip my trigger all that much. I watched people shooting a CAS match and could not beleive how many of them waited till they were back on target before the cocked the hammer again. Of course the light loads in the heavy guns used in thie sport don't give you a lot of recoil action/muzzle rise to work with but still... I got into the habbit of cocking the hammer as the muzzle is coming back down and I use this on single & DA wheel guns. By the time you come to bear on your target, your finger is back on the trigger and you're ready to fire. This is probably why I love my blackhawk in the .45LC with it's stubby little 4-5/8" bbl. The muzzle rolls nicley up and right, thumb goes on the hammer and cocks it as the muzzle in on the downard stroke. Nice smooth action from fire to cock back to fire again. Does tend to throw me off a little with the light wad cutter loads in the GP-100 because there is no muzzle rise but I still prefer firing in SA mode over absorbing the long pull of the DA mode.

So let's hear your thoughts.

Can of worms??

You would probably take exception to my usual method of taking the spent cartridge out of the action by hand and putting it in my pocket before chambering the next round.

Are right about how most people at the rnge shoot their bolt guns. Even the few people you'll see at the range who shoot off hand tend to drop the butt off their shoulder to cycle the bolt. Can learn how to cycle from the shoulder, but most people don't. Like any skill, unless you practice it, you'll never get any good at it but this has the advantage that you don't need to be at a range or use live-fire the gun to learn how to run that bolt back and forth from your shoulder.

Will find it's harder to do from a benchrest...and as 95% of the people seen shooting at the range shoot only from the bench, can see where it's a dying skill. Set the stock up for bench shooting, set the scope up for bench shooting (usually it's a bit farther back than is optimal for offhand), don't practice the strong hold/pull back needed to hold the rifle in place,and it just seems like it's too hard to do...it isn't.

With semi-autos you don't really get a choice (unless if jams), cycling from the shoulder is the most natual way to run a pump, and it's a skill levergun shooters seem to have rediscovered. Single shot shooters seem to be unaware that it was once "the drill".

For DA wheelguns, I do shoot them DA at least part of the time. Is a harder skill to learn, but it's the whole reason they exist. Can learn the straight through DA pull, or the "hesitate" DA pull...lot of that depends on the feel of the revolver's action.

Past a certain recoil level, single actions are about as fast as double actions so long as you use the time needed to pull it down from recoil to cock the hammer (and the DA shooters uses the hesitation-pull-system and hs rolled that hammer back at least part of the way in the same time frame).

So it's not really a can of worms...it's just that most shooters never really use their guns to their full potential.
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Does need to be praciced in teh privacy of your home in dry-fire before heading to the range for live-fire. Most ranges take a dim view of rounds tossed over their backstop, so have your skill level at least to the point where that won't happen.

Post is not designed to be a "can of worms" nor is directed at bench shooters...from the bench I tend to remove my brass by hand and usually only have one round in the gun anyway.

My focus was toward combat & hunting; IE: field/fighting positions.

Point is not create controversy but rather to get opinions, reasons, where's & why for's.... thus, just a can of questions, not worms.

RS, forgot all about the singles...I shot a lot of singles and got into the practice of keeping a live round or two, depending on their diameter, between my middle & ring and or ring and pinky fingers up near the palm. Open the lever/catch with the same hand holding the spare rounds, rotate the hand to insert another and close the action with other hand that never left its position on the forearm.

Back to the service days, when the DI called "ammo out" you had to put down the rifle and go to the side arm. One hand drew the pistol while the other drew the 2 spare mags simultaniously. Use a modified two hand grip but when the first mag was empty, the next in line was already at the weapon, not still in the mag pouch.

I would just guess that when you see people at the range, they are not practicing hunting methods of firing, but just shooting to see if they can hit something. I do the same thing at the range. When I am hunting, say with a shotgun, I work the slide without removing the gun from my shoulder. Same with my lever guns. It just comes natural to me. This is somehting I have never practiced. I can get three shots out of my shotgun at a deer almost as fast as someone with an auto shotgun.

I would call such action by shooters or hunters, as being poorly taught simply stated. :eek: :o :(

I have never agreed with the supposed advantage of the short action round in a bolt gun. Plenty of experienced hunters can get 3 accurate shots off from a 06 or .270 in 5 or 6 seconds. Less if it were a speed contest. The point (while hunting) is not the speed of the follow-up shot, but the accuracy anyway. I've only needed follow-up shots 4 times in 25 years of hunting deer. Handling recoil and people using scopes with too much magnification are a much bigger issues than the length of the round IMO.

Would be close...but if I were to have one shooter with a trap door and another with a scope sighted commercial bolt gun, if the bolt guy had to fill his magazine each time he ran dry, am wondering just how much faster he could shoot 100 rounds on target.

Lots of people find military guns kind of "gawky"...but given iron sights, there is a reason for many of them to have that bolt knob jutting up from the stock a good bit. Doesn't have to be sticking out at 90degrees, but having a good bit of sapce under the knob for you hand to get into does seem to speed things up considerably. With a scope, when you "palm" the bolt, end up busting your fingers on the scope tube/turret/base/rings when you try for real fast manipulations.

Mark it off as one of the things non-modifided military guns do better...after all, they were designed to.


I'm as guilty as the next guy...shoot from a bench...don't eject the brass so you can pick it out and put it back in it's box...lift my head up to either watch the ejection of peek through the spoting scope...etc. But I do have sessions where I stand, shoot, slam-bang cycle the bolt from my shoulder and let the brass fall where it may.

Shooting a bolt gun, I bring the gun off the shoulder to cycle the bolt, then reshoulder. Seems natural to me, since that's how I've always done it. I've watched others that cycle the bolt on the shoulder, and I've tried that as well; doesn't work for me, just too unfamiliar. Guess I was taught poorly..... Actually, I have no memory of being taught one way or the other. I've never been in the armed forces (and, I don't know whether keeping the rifle shouldered is taught) so I haven't had people shooting back at me where split second speed is a factor.

A pump shotgun, I leave shouldered when cycling the action.

It would be interesting to determine if most people that were in the military cycled the bolt while shouldered, and if most of those that cycled the bolt off the shoulder weren't in the military.

Shooting a bolt gun, I bring the gun off the shoulder to cycle the bolt, then reshoulder. Seems natural to me, since that's how I've always done it. I've watched others that cycle the bolt on the shoulder, and I've tried that as well; doesn't work for me, just too unfamiliar. Guess I was taught poorly..... Actually, I have no memory of being taught one way or the other. I've never been in the armed forces (and, I don't know whether keeping the rifle shouldered is taught) so I haven't had people shooting back at me where split second speed is a factor.

A pump shotgun, I leave shouldered when cycling the action.

It would be interesting to determine if most people that were in the military cycled the bolt while shouldered, and if most of those that cycled the bolt off the shoulder weren't in the military.

Well I am in the military, but my grandfathers and my dad were the last ones to use a military boly gun in the family. It's been all auto's during my career. I learned to shoot a bolt gun quick from my marlin bolt .22 plinking as a kid. I always left it shouldered while shooting quick follow-ups.

I would say it's simply a matter of ease of effort. It is easier to get good leverage against the bolt when you have the rifle down low and you can pull the bolt up. Up at the shoulder, it is weaker muscles that must be used to operate the bolt. I would guess it is just a natural tendency.

But you bring up something I hadn't even thought about. I'll me sure to start practicing your way.

And yes, charge handle on the AR is in a terrible place. It's even worse if you have a long scope mounted there, as I presently have.

I guess it comes down to how you learned. I always use the palm of my hand (off hand) on a bolt gun, no knuckle rapping! ;) All Rifles, pump and auto shotguns stay shouldered. DA revolvers are cocked on 1st round only. If you are pulling the hammer back manually, get a SA. I think what folks have seen in old movies influences them allot, "it only takes one shot partner". As far as the AR, There are ambidextrous charger handles that make it easier, especially with a scope.
I have never thought of my hold while cycling a rifle. When I shoot from a bench, I use the back of my thumb to open the action, and remove the case w/ second and third fingers. Sometimes it helps to have big hands. Your hold on the fore stock should not change.

... 99% of the time, I watch people shooting a bolt and they drop the rifle off their shoulder to cycle the action, sometimes as low as waist level. This means not only re-aquiring the target in the sights but also reshouldering the rifle into firing position. Now, unless you have a really short LOP or a really long action, there is no way in h*ll that bolt is going to smack you in the eye if you keep the gun shouldered in the firing position while working the actionI believe you're right and have been practicing a fast, shoulder-mounted second shot for the last year or so. The impetus for this change was a comment from an African professional hunter who deplored most American hunter's tendency to "admire the shot" instead of shooting again.

I don't believe the problem is too short a Length of Pull, however, but rather the opposite. With both bolt actions and lever actions I find it impossible to work the bolt or lever from the shoulder when the LOP is too long, and I presume that's the case for others, also. Add to that physical limitation the tendency of rifle makers lately to put longer Euro-length stocks on American-style rifles, and it's harder and harder to avoid treating a rifle shot like a golf shot, even if we want to. And we certainly should want to.

Jaywalker

There are a few bolt rifles that I can chamber from the shoulder. Weatherby MkV's ,Tikkas to name a few.
But I've always considered a magazine as just a place to hold extra shells anyway.
In a hunting situation, I usually shoot at the animal then concentrate on its reaction to the shot.
That's much more important to me than jacking another round in the chamber.

That's much more important to me than jacking another round in the chamber.
That depends on the animal you are hunting... :D

I always cycle the action with the rifle on target. Doesn't make sense for me to do it any other way. It's faster for a follow-up shot (if needed), you can watch the animal for its reaction better through the scope, etc...

If you drop the rifle from your shoulder at the shot, your eyes go from looking through the scope to regular vision, many times losing sight of the animal in the process. You have to remount the rifle to shoulder and get centered behind the scope and find the animal again. In low light conditions, the change from the scope bringing in additional light to normal vision may cause you to lose sight of the animal completely.

Keep that rifle on your shoulder and chamber another round. There really is no reason not too. If your bolt or lever is too hard to work from that position, something needs to be done to remedy that.

On dangerous game the rifle should never leave your shoulder until you run out of cartridges or the animal is stone dead.

Yep, gotta admit a whitetail buck is not the same as a grizz.
I did say that it was very easy for me to cycle my mark V's at my shoulder. When using those guns, I can usually stay on target, but I do have a tendancy to shoot and study the reaction before I jack another round in.
Not saying that's the right way, but I like to feel like I'm shooting a single shot and not a rifle that is carrying 4-5 rounds. I just think it helps me shoot better.
Although, not taking a second shot this past year cost me a good buck. His reaction to my shot told me that he was hit good, but at 236 yards, he wasn't hit that good. I just scared him and he fell over backward.
I'm getting off thread, but I think you get my point.

Good Luck

For most animals I hunt, I continue shooting while they remain on their feet, moose are different, though. If I'm extremely confident with the shot on moose, I may wait to let him fall over. Everything else keeps getting shot. :D

Bullets are cheap compared to most hunts, or at least the effort to get to where the animals are. While in Zimbabwe, I shot till the animal didn't move anymore. Bullets were cheap, animal fees were expensive! :eek:

Even using my Ruger No.1, I ended up shooting the Eland 5 times. I was sure the first shot was a good one (watched the splash of the bullet exactly where I wanted it to go), but some animals can cover a lot of ground before giving up the ghost. Also, even with the best bullets available, sometimes strange things happen when bullet encounters a glancing blow on bone.

With the No.1, I kept it to my shoulder and fed rounds with my right hand (which were held between my fingers of my left hand). The scope never left the animal until we raced down the kopje.

I learned with a shotgun hunting grouse as a kid, keep the stock on your shoulder, eyes over the barrel. It has paid off with rifles over the years. I do lose tight contact with my cheek and the stock with bolt actions especially magnum length actions. But a good long eye relief scope helps remedy some of that as it puts me in a good spot not to get whacked by either scope or bolt.

I appreciate all the responces. Thank You.

This was a good question/topic. Lots of older folks that teethed on iron sighted bolt rifles learned to put in another round without removing the rifle from the shooting position. Putting scopes on these rifles complicated things, but the keep it shouldered crowd adapted.

There are some advantages to keeping the stock on the shoulder like a fast follow up shot and the fact that you can watch the animal thru the scope and get a closer look at what it does after the shot.

As far as revolvers a lifetime of big game revolver hunting has led to 99.9 percent using the gun as a single action simply because that single action trigger has always led me to better accuracy. I just like to be able to open that cylinder and dump out all the cases at once.

Anyway a very interesting discussion.

You will do what you practice. Most people only shoot at the range for practice and dont even try field positions or standing. I keep the rifle at my shoulder and work the bolt "as fast as you can" as Jeff Cooper says. I use a scout mount for the scope because it give better access to the bolt and is a lot easier to load the magazine. I find most stocks too long to work the bolt easily and can understand why people take the gun down, especialy with a scope on the receiver. Also I can safely say that the vast majority of bolt gun users have no formal training. Check out Cooper's Art of the Rifle book.

You will do what you practice. Most people only shoot at the range for practice and dont even try field positions or standing. I keep the rifle at my shoulder and work the bolt "as fast as you can" as Jeff Cooper says. I use a scout mount for the scope because it give better access to the bolt and is a lot easier to load the magazine. I find most stocks too long to work the bolt easily and can understand why people take the gun down, especialy with a scope on the receiver. Also I can safely say that the vast majority of bolt gun users have no formal training. Check out Cooper's Art of the Rifle book.

Really good point about folks not practicing field positions, though over the past couple of years at our small informal range I've seen a few fathers teaching youngsters to shoot from field positions. It's encouraging.

Most of the folks who come to the range set up some kind of a bench rest and just basically sight in their guns. Lots of times they're done in less than ten rounds. Sometimes I think the deer on the hillsides watching are saying, "yup, lets hang around those guys, they can't shoot for the dickens".

I see lots of folks that are perfectly happy that they are shooting on the paper of a standard sight in target or better yet hit that gallon jug of water they set up.

I've never had a scout rifle, but the concept is extremly valid, especially for a rifle designed for close in brush hunting.

I asked my Zimbabwe PH what were the most common mistakes he thought hunters made. He replied:
1) Taking too much time to shoot
and
2) Admiring their first shot

I've heard the same from other PH's and guides (Alaska).

Sometimes its nice to not even sit down at a bench and shoot. Even when I am at the range, I like shooting from field positions. It's nice when you can brace carefully against a tree or stump or rock in the field, but sometimes you just don't have that luxury so you have to shoot standing on your own two wobbly legs or kneeling or sitting on your butt. I just practice what I know I may be faced with doing in the field.

I was taught by the greatest of all recoil junkys, that you never take your eye off the sights/scope and target until said target is dead to your satisfaction. He also taught me to shoot with both eyes open with both iron sights and a scope. I learned to shoot that way cause then I got to see the pop can full of water blow up. :D Makes for faster and quicker followup shots because you never lose sight of your target. From my Nylon 63 to my 300RUM I shoot them all the same way.

Even at the bench I find myself shooting with both eyes open and cycling the bolt without raising my head, even though there's usually one shell in the magazine at a time.

RJ