What are some inherently accurate rounds, and what make them inherently accurate?

You should have asked an easy question, like blondes, brunettes or redheads.

I tend to think it is a matter of the optimal case capacity versus caliber with a good case geometry thrown in.

Trouble is, that is a moving target, pun intended.

You would have to put the various PPC and BR type cartridges on the top of the heap. More old school would be the .222 Remington. Talking strictly 100 yards in good conditions the 22 calibers really seem to shine the brightest, followed by the .243s and the rest are also rans.

Unless you are talking about an all out target gun, I think it is a pretty moot point.

I think its marketing hype. We hear a lot of "308 Winchester is inherently accurate" and "the 7x57 is inherently inaccurate". If rifles shooting the cartridges are built to the same quality, same stiffness with the same quality barrels, bullets, weight for scale, correct rate of twist for the bullet, etc... one will be as accurate as the other.

Short rounds that are chambered in short, stiff actions flex the actions less, so there may be an advantage there. Not really a cartridge attribute, but an action attribute. A cartridge that creates less recoil is likely to be shot more, thus more accurately, by the shooter. But if you scale the rifle to the cartridge, that becomes moot as well. I just don't see how any cartridge can be claimed to be more accurate than another. It's the quality of load components and rifle components that will determine the accuracy.

Alyeska, we each have a budget of $5,000 to have a rifle built. I get .22 PPC you get 45/70. How much you want to bet on a 10 shot, 100 yard bench match?

Alyeska, we each have a budget of $5,000 to have a rifle built. I get .22 PPC you get 45/70. How much you want to bet on a 10 shot, 100 yard bench match?


Lot of thought here. For your average over the counter rifle, think it's just a matter of whose machines were running right in the best adjsutment that day...given a good barrel and correct chamber, haven't found A N Y round to be inaccurate.

But when it comes to laying down the $ for a rull bnech rest rig run by a shooter that could take a championship, there does seem to be some agreement.

Now these guys woould shoot a .25acp case necked to .457" if it gave them a .001" advantage....so it's NOT a matter of "follow the leader". The ones i've met and shot with have all been nice enough guys, but if there knoew a secret that gained them even a few 1/1000ths of an inche, they'd tend to guard it with their lives.

Are the same round cahmbered because the best barrels and chambers have been discovered for these rounds? IS it becasue the rounds themselves have some "magic" dimention? Is the brass avaialable for certain rounds is just more uniform?

Darned if i know. The .222 has to rate as normally an accurate round...as does the .308....while the near identical .300Savage doen't have that reputation.

Go figure.

I think the most inherently accurate round is the .308. That is what most other very accurate rounds are based off of, like the 22-250 and the 6mm's. .222 and .223 are two other good ones.

I believe it is the rifle that is, or causes a certain degree of accuracy. Certain bullet weights can help accuracy in a firearm, certain powders can also help accuracy, all of your cartridge components can help, but that is tailoring the cartridge to the firearm. Take the M96 Swedish Mauser, and 6.5x55 cartridge. Do you think the 6.5x55 cartridge would still be around if the rifles were dogs? The fact is most cartridges that have survived are Military based. 30.06.. .270,
.308.. .243. I posted a Question on a 1910 Winchester, chambered in 410 SL. The only rifle I know of chambered for this round. Nice rifle, good ballistics for White tail deer, accurate, and obsolete, the ammo made by only a few companies. I am not a "standard USA cartridge" kind of guy. 8x57, .303brit, 7.62x54r are all very accurate rounds, the rifle and shooter may be the question! JP

I think the most inherently accurate round is the .308. That is what most other very accurate rounds are based off of, like the 22-250 and the 6mm's. .222 and .223 are two other good ones.

Not to pick nits or anything but I believe the 22-250 is a necked down .250 Savage which pre-dated the .308 Winchester by about 40 years.


What "accuracy" means is a debatable subject itself. "I hit a rock with my rifle a long ways away" versus "My rifle shoots in the 1s and 2s all day everyday".

Not to pick nits or anything but I believe the 22-250 is a necked down .250 Savage which pre-dated the .308 Winchester by about 40 years.


What "accuracy" means is a debatable subject itself. "I hit a rock with my rifle a long ways away" versus "My rifle shoots in the 1s and 2s all day everyday".


Was just stating what all my books say about other cartridges based off the .308. I will agree that the newer calibers like the 6PPC and 6BR are the best. The 6BR is also based off the .308.

Alyeska, we each have a budget of $5,000 to have a rifle built. I get .22 PPC you get 45/70. How much you want to bet on a 10 shot, 100 yard bench match?
It would definitely be easier to build a more accurate 22PPC, no question. Components of the rifle and cartridge are key, though, I believe. Can your supposed 22PPC shoot with a 50 BMG out to 3000 yards? Components for both rifle and cartridge of the 45/70 are not built today for the utmost in accuracy, they are built for other purposes.

If one more inherently accurate than the other, even with unlimited funds, it would reign supreme at any range. If the same care and quality of both rifle and cartridge components, and rifles are scaled the same, I do believe one cartridge can equal the other for accuracy.

In all honesty, its semantics, unless we are trying to build a certain class competition (especially bench) rifle. Some cartridges, components and rifles (built around the cartridges) are built for accuracy, plain pure and simple. Some are built for stopping charging elephants. Those for stopping charging elephants, the components are designed and improved with that as the parameter. I'm sure you could build a singleshot, solid bottom bolt action rifle weighing 50 lbs, lathe turn your brass and bullets, have the best barrel available with the correct rate of twist chambered for the 45/70 and do very well in an unlimited class shoot. I doubt anyone has ever done that though.

As we speak about "inherently" accurate cartridge designs, as Ribbonstone pointed out, what does "accurate" mean to you? For the 1,000 yard competitor, a 22 PPC would never do, but a 308 or 300 Mag or 338 Lapua would. Those 100 yard benchresters, though would probably prefer a PPC. And the ultra long range guys? The fellows shooting the 408 Chey Tac's and 50 BMG's? Which can give you better scores at 100 yards, 1,000 yards, 3,000 yards? If a cartridge is "inherently" accurate, it should perform as top dog, no matter the range, after all, it's accuracy is "inherent".

Excellent points Alyeska. Impossible to argue what is accurate without a definition of accuracy.

Here's my two cents...some rounds are plain and simple more accurate. Or maybe less fussy to load is a better term. I've loaded for my 270 Win for over 10 years and I've tested dozens of different load combos trying to find the perfect combo of velocity and accuracy. While I've gotten some decent loads that are more than adequate for hunting, I've shot quite a few different loads in my 358 Win that I've yet to get with my 270 and I've only had that for about 2 years. Both are stock firearms, the 270 is a Rem M700 and the 358 is a Browning BLR. Much easier to get the accuracy in the 358 which is based on the 308 case. In the 48th Lyman manual, they say with the 6mm PPC in a Sako single shot (stock firearm) and factory ammo, they obtained frequent 1/4 to 1/2" groups.

I just don't think anyone can give a good answer, its like the question of why certain guns will only fire certain types of ammo accurately while others will like the rest? I don't believe anyone can really give an adequate answer, unless your a physics PHD, however, if I had to place my bets, I would put some stock in the case design, and volumetric efficiency, but in reality, I don't believe these are things that make a difference even some target shooters could ever tell.


My two cents

-Martin

actually, shouldn't we be discussing the most inherently precise cartridge? I would say most cartridges are capable of a high level of precison, but I would also say that the rifle has A LOT to do with it, that being said I agree that certain cartridges do have a reputation of being highly precise, PPC's and BR's being the most notable.

Best let the benchrest crowd answer this one.

Just some thoughts.

As calibers become less popular, the forming dies that make the cases are changed less often...tolerances become wider...and the cases show enough variation that accuracy certainly becomes harder to find. Has been some complaints from wildcatters who like the .284 and .225 base case.

Some calibers are so seldom chambered in accuracy-nut type rifles, that less attention is paid to accuracy than to other factors. Been darned few 25-35, 303Savage, or .458WM bench rest guns so their chambers are desgined with other actors in mind....while a varmint caliber without a reputation for accurcay won't last very long.

Ammo companies can put their best foot forward when they want to. They usually do with the first runs of a newly introduced caliber. Some of the best ammo ever loaded came with the first runs of the .222 and 225...later lots were more variable.

Some case designs just seem to suck. There was a reason for the long tapered cases with gentle shoulders when smokless powder was young....that shaped seemed to suit those old, fast, hot powders that ran at realitively low pressures. Same case desgin just isnt the best with modern slow powders....and more recent designs seem sustom made for large amounts of today's very-slow powders. So case design does seem to make a differnce.

Aside from the varmint cartridges, most of which are quite accurate and usually .224s I'd say most rounds that we consider inherently accurate are the milder recoiling ones, lke the .243Win., 6mm Rem., 6.5x55 and the like. There are many that I would not want to spend a day at the range shooting for fear of becomig a spastic cripple. Just one mans opinion. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

I believe its all about hormonic`s of the barrel.I`ve hand lapped a 30-06 rifle barrel and a 308 rifle barrel so there smooth and same size from one end to the other.Pillar bedded both rifles.Weighed cases,bullets,uniformed flashholes,water density tests on case and sorted,annealed case necks for uniform tension,checked for bullet run out,weighed every charge,choronographed 1000`s of shots, hot barrels vs cold barrels.recorded temp,humidity from 20 f to 90 f ,sun shining on barrel to shaded barrels. both of these rifles are the most accurate with 180 sp or 150 sp at 2550 fps, as the velocity increase`s the groups open up.Both have a 1-10 twist.The 308 case`s have less run out for some reason.The 30-06 likes powders that fill the case the most and stays within the 2550 fps window.The 308 likes powders that fills the cases and stays within the 2550 fps window,There for if both rifles are shooting the same size and weight bullets at the same speed ther basicly the same.The 308 is easier or quicker to find a powder to fill the case and stay within the 2550fps window.Anyways thats the research I`ve been working on for the last 15 years. Presently experimenting on 44 cal rifles and there twist compared to velocity and length of bullet and weight.

Mttopdeweller,
If you have any information to share on your .44 rifle experimentation, I would love to hear it. Been doing a little myself, my "scientific methodology" leaves some to be desired though.

That was a mouthful, Mt. Top Dweller. To say I was impressed would not cover it. Great info. My limited experience with 30.06 and .308 have been about the same. Any experience with SP vs Partition bullets in those weights? I have not got the partitions to perform as well as SPs and would like to have your input on different bullets at those weights and velocities if you have them.

The rifles Ive` been experimenting with are a ruger 77/44 1-20 twist Win 94 trapper 1- 28 Handi 44 1-38 twist
H110- 22.8 most accurate of H110 loads- with 240 grn Noslers or Hornady Sil. max 24.0-Ruger,Trapper, Handi 44
H110-21.0 lead 270 grn Trapper 1625 fps
H110- 19.0 lead 300 grn Trapper 1420 fps 1/2 grp
Herco-10.0 gns 240 hornady sil -Ruger 77/44, Super redhawk
Herco-8.0 300 grn lead (9.4 max!! load chorno) Ruger 77/44 1250fps, SRH 1052 fps
Unique-11.8 240 hornady Hp/xtp Excellent group 12.1 max 1475 fps 77/44
Blue Dot 13.5 240 hornady Hp/xtp 15.8 max 1400 fps Handi rifle.
All of the above used Win large Pistol primers Win Brass
Chronographed at 50- 70 degrees f
The 77/44 and Super redhawk have been hand lapped .430 bore
The Trapper has micro groove hand lapped .430 bore
The Handi 44 hand lapped .433 bore micro groove doesn`t shoot 300 gn lead good .430 Hp/Xtp execellent.The above loads came from Lee,Hornady,Nosler, Lyman,reloading Manuals and Handloading mag.Use at your own risk start low no more than 3% for H110 and work up looking for signs of pressure.

Haven`t tried the other rifle bullets in .308 cal.Hornady 150-220 grns mostly spire point or round nose. 125,150, 180 gn nosler ballistic tip.Serria 125 Hp for 30-30.Personally like the 180 sp and rn for 30-06 or 308, Hornady is cheaper than most of the competators and still gets the job done.If ya make a dime size to quarter size hole through the heart it ain`t going far.

Alyeska 338, I would not hesitate to take that offer using the 45/70 in the shooting match!...... Only lets make it more of a contest and shoot out to say 500, 600, 700 and 800 yards. Now I betcha their would be a lump in somebodies throat and it certainly would not be mine.
:D :D :D :D

To me accuracy out to 100 yards doesn't really mine squat! It must also be accurate out to at least 450 yards, as far as a hunting rifle is concerned in my eyes. Just food for thought OK. :)

Let me have a 6mm and we will extend the bet out to 1000 yards. ;)

Mttopdeweller, thanks for the data. I have shied away from H110 loads because of the admonishments about reduced loads. My wimpy 2400 loads give me all the thump I want out of my Marlin 1894. I have some though and may try it before next deer season.

FWIW, I have had very good results with the cheapo Magtech jacketed bullets, better than Sierra, Speer and Nosler out of my rifle. My most accurate load to date is the Magtech 240 grain SJSP and 15.5 grains of 2400. I believe this load to be on the ragged edge of as light as you can go with 2400.

Thanks guys for the info. I would report on all the 44 loads I have tried but I have a 3 ring binder full of loads and targets to back them up. My intent with the 44 in pistol and rifle from the beginning was to shoot lead loads exclusively and it took much to get there. I never had an issue with any loads for accuracy while using jacketed bullets of any type. The hands down best load was a very moderate load of universal or green dot covered by the 220 gr Sierra FPJ bullet.

I have settled on a loading for the rifle now and it is with Marshall's 290 gr LFNGC over a healthy dose of H-110 that he perscribed. It is looking really good. Don't know I could handle it in the SBH though.

Bob Nosler of Nosler Ammo has spent years in the ballistic lab at Nosler, INC. Thousands of rounds have been fired under controlled conditions using top grade barrels. He has found that it is easier to get some cartridges to make tiny groups than others when testing his bullets, powder or ammo. The 308 is one of the most inherently accurate in his test rounds over the years.

hgdt, are the 308 based rounds similarly accurate?

hgdt, are the 308 based rounds similarly accurate?
Yes, using different rifles and bullets all show an increase in accuracy while other calibers do not. By the way, the 308 is not the only inherently accurate one, but I don't know all that are so considered.

I meant to ask are the rounds based on the 308 cases such as 243 and 358 similarly accurate. What it boils down to is, is it the overall design of the case or is it the combintation case design and bullet diameter

What I have found is that just about any round can be very accurate, but the .308 is much easier to tet to shoot accurate than anything else I have shot. Seems to like a veriety of powders and is not as picky on loads as others. The .243 and the 22-250 are very accurate, but take a bit more work.

I will agree the .308 (or 7.62x51) seems to be accurate in hand loads, surplus, or factory ammo in my rifles. My Savage 110 7mm Rem Mag is there also, so is it the round, or the rifle? Do some cartridges lend themselves to produce a more precise chamber, action and barrel? I own an old HC Higgens .22 S/L/LR. It will drop a crow at 75 yards w/ open sights using LR ammo, you pick the ammo. So is it the cartridge or the rifle? My A-bolt .22 Mag is a tack driver, It hates winchester ammo & loves everything else, so it is the rifle! To many variables.
Sorry for ranting. JP

What are some inherently accurate rounds, and what make them inherently accurate?

Ben,
Is your question just theoretical?
Or do you have a rifle/cartridge buy on the horizon?

Assuming you are not considering building a bench rest competion rifle or a 1,000 target rifle, Many cartridges will be accurate enough for all else.


IMO for general varmints or targets with some hunting the cartridge selection will not be as important as the rifle selection to obtain good accuracy.

If you would tell us some more about why/what your thinking I could maybe more specific with help.

I will agree the .308 (or 7.62x51) seems to be accurate in hand loads, surplus, or factory ammo in my rifles. My Savage 110 7mm Rem Mag is there also, so is it the round, or the rifle? Do some cartridges lend themselves to produce a more precise chamber, action and barrel? I own an old HC Higgens .22 S/L/LR. It will drop a crow at 75 yards w/ open sights using LR ammo, you pick the ammo. So is it the cartridge or the rifle? My A-bolt .22 Mag is a tack driver, It hates winchester ammo & loves everything else, so it is the rifle! To many variables.
Sorry for ranting. JP


Thats ok. Seems to be getting too deep though. You cannot compair a rimfire to a center fire. Totally different powders and straight walled compaired to a bottle neck. For a hight powered center fire it is mostly, but not always the cartridge. The cartridge was designed for a certain purpose with the use of a wide veriety of bullet weights form light to heavy. You have to have a good barrel whether it is a .22 or a .308. Some cartridge simply outperform others. Like the new ones of today, for a 200-300 yard bench gun, the 6ppc and 6BR just out do most of the others on a regular basis. Has little to do with the rifle. Again you have to start with a good barrel. Other than that it is the cartridge.

Thats ok. Seems to be getting too deep though. You cannot compair a rimfire to a center fire. Totally different powders and straight walled compaired to a bottle neck. For a hight powered center fire it is mostly, but not always the cartridge. The cartridge was designed for a certain purpose with the use of a wide veriety of bullet weights form light to heavy. You have to have a good barrel whether it is a .22 or a .308. Some cartridge simply outperform others. Like the new ones of today, for a 200-300 yard bench gun, the 6ppc and 6BR just out do most of the others on a regular basis. Has little to do with the rifle. Again you have to start with a good barrel. Other than that it is the cartridge.

I don't agree. 6mm benchrest shooters are using custom ammo, not off the shelf ammo. We tune our rifles, we tune our ammo. So what is the determining factor for cartridge accuracy? Deep maybe, but benchrest shooters are the most anal. Is it the cartridge, or the time to develope the perfect load for a rifle? Rimfire or centerfire the same rule applies. If it is accurate, then it apply's. If you need a good barrel ( couple hundred? a thousand?) the rifle is the key.

I meant to ask are the rounds based on the 308 cases such as 243 and 358 similarly accurate. What it boils down to is, is it the overall design of the case or is it the combintation case design and bullet diameter

It seems to be a combination of case design and bullet diameter. Using your example of 243 and 358 win, they would tend to be accurate but not to the degree of the parent case, the 308.

I meant to ask are the rounds based on the 308 cases such as 243 and 358 similarly accurate. What it boils down to is, is it the overall design of the case or is it the combintation case design and bullet diameter It seems to be a combination of case design and bullet diameter. Using your example of 243 and 358 win, they would tend to be accurate but not to the degree of the parent case, the 308.
Guys - I beg to differ!
Factory chamber tolerances can tend to vary more on the "lower volume" chamberings than the "high volume" ones. Plus the "high volume" ones have more probability of randomly getting a chamber that's very good. These two reasons coupled with similer tolerences of low/high volume reloading dies can be part of the reason that you'll more likely to find factory chambering in 30-06 and 270 to be more accurate than the 25-06, 280 and 35 Whelens. Same with the 308 verses its child cartridges (now I have seen some very accurate 243s).

If I wanted accuracy I would look for it in the following order: The barrel - Chamber tolerences and crown The rifle - Action true and bedded well to the stock The trigger pull Quality cases and Quality reloading dies The bullet And finally the cartridge selection

I think there are two completely different trains of thought here: On the one hand; sure the rifle is more important, no cartridge is going to be accurate in a junk rifle and any cartridge can be accurate in a good rifle. On the other hand; I firmly believe that given a rifle that will allow the cartridge to show its full potential, some cartridges are more accurate than others.

Probaly considered the most accurate center fire rounds today,22br,6br,6ppc,6.5-284 and the .308.Not saying you can compair the 22br with the 308 @ the 1000yd line.These are the most accurate cartridges because they have been proven to be so to date,this is likely due to a number of factors,case length,case volum,suiteable powders,billistic performance of bullets and availibity of all of these.

If a rifle meets your criteria for what you consider accurate, then it's an accurate rifle. That will vary from shooter to shooter. Generally the smaller rounds are considered more accurate, or capable of becoming so, like the .222Rem., .22-250Rem., .243Win., .308Win. and similar calibers. Any rifle you can fully control and shoot well will be accurate. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

What are some inherently accurate rounds, and what make them inherently accurate?

All else being equal (and boy is there a lot), the ability of the cartridge case and powder combination, to duplicate as near possible, the exact same muzzle velocity from one shot to the next.

All other factors can be controlled by how you, such as:
1. Building the rifle, selecting the scope and associated gear
2. techniques for shooting the rifle
3. manufacture of the ammo
4. conditions under which the rifle is shot.

Competition has proven that the PPC/BR case design of a shorter and thicker powder column produces the lowest standard deviation shot to shot. At least until something something else comes along to surpass it.

A good book on the subject is: "Precision Shooting-Reloading Guide" edited by Dave Brennan, Published by Precision Shooting Inc. 1995

Alyeska, we each have a budget of $5,000 to have a rifle built. I get .22 PPC you get 45/70. How much you want to bet on a 10 shot, 100 yard bench match?
Where's my $5000.00?!?!? LOL I wish!

Squint

That's what I've been waiting for too, Squint!! :D

I'll chime in and say that this has been a very interesting thread to follow; thanks to everyone.