I have given this more thought than I should but there are a lot of magnum fans out there, and there are a lot of two hole fans out there. meaning the bullet has an entry and an exit wound.

For example, lets say a 270 Win has around 1800 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards with a 130 grain bullet, and the bullet enters the animal and then exits the animal. It seems to me, that the bullet chosen has not let the caliber utilize all of its effective energy where it counts and that is inside the animal. This bullet performance probably didn't use half of the bullets effectiveness.
It really doesn't matter whether you are using a 300 Win Mag or a 243 Win, if the bullet choice doesn't allow your rifle its full effect on the animal.
Now, you will get a better blood trail with two holes, but at what sacrifice? Loss of bullet energy.

An old hunter friend of mine tried to beat this into my head years ago, but I thought bigger was better.

We used to use 243 Winchesters with 75 grain Norma HP with devastating results on deer. The bullet always stayed in the animal and blew up everything in sight. But the bullet speed was still very high. Try the same thing with a 130 to 150 grain 6 to 7 mm bullet at around 2500-2650FPS, and you would end up with the bullet using all its energy inside the animal.

The more I read about the older 6.5x55 and 7x57 loaded with the longer heavier bullets at slower speeds, the more I began to realize that these calibers used all of their energy inside the animal where it does the most good.
There is an interesting article about this at:

www.eabco.com/Reports/report03.html

I have never paid that much attention to Ballistic Coeffecient, but the more I read and the more I see in the field, I'm changing my mind.
Even to the point of using highter BC bullets at slower speeds on my rifles.

I am fortunate enough to have a good pig area where I hunt, and I think I'll do some good old fashion field research on some pigs through the summer.
I think what I'm looking for in a bullet/ caliber combination is one where I can use a high BC bullet, that is flat shooting out to about 300 yards and uses all of its energy in the animal for maximum shock effect at normal shooting ranges.

All suggestions accepted.
Good Luck Tom

I'm no fan of magnums, but I utterly fail to see what the big deal is about "wasting energy". If the cartridge doesn't have energy to spare, get a better one!

I once hit a deer broadside while I was tavelling 40 MPH in a full-sized Buick. The deer was knocked to the shoulder of the road, scrambled to its feet, and ran off. I daresay the energy his body absorbed was more than could be delivered by any shoulder-mounted weapon. Big deal! It didn't do the work needed to kill the deer.

"Energy", in and of itself, is totally without meaning. It's the work that energy does that is important. If Load A travels 9/10 of the way through a deer and kills a deer, how has it in any way outperformed Load B which travels all the way through and kills it? Perhaps more to the point, if the animal stands at a slight angle and the distance required to fully incapacitate vital organs is lengthened by a few inches, wouldn't Load B be the better choice?

BTW, I own and use a Brown Model 97D rifle in .300 BRM. It is a deer-killing machine par excellence, but a terrible energy waster. No matter the angle of the shot, it sends its 180 gr. bullet clean through every deer I point it at. Every deer shot so far -- 10 or 12, I guess -- has dropped in its tracks. I have no problem with that!

Beieve the wise course is to have a round that can work in the worst case rahter than just in the best case...penetration is the ONLY thing that gets the bullet to where it can do the job at hand. With controled expasnion, will still tear a big hole, but I prefer a bullet that can get to the "goodies" even if there is a lot of meat to traverse.

Which means that given an easy broadside hit, the bullet will exit every time....not a bad thing, as an exit wound (1) leavea much larger blood trail than an entrance (2) the ragged exit blleds a lot more than the entrance and (3) letting air into the system from two holes promotes either rapid pneumotorax or pneumoperitenium (either one can chut he lungs down).

So give me a bullt that:
1. Goes through the critter.
2. goes through on a straight line.
3. Expands...choppes a hole through rather than pushing it aside as it penetrates.
4. Stays close to one big chunk as it does these things.
-------
Varming shooting is a differnt kettle...like the bullets that expend their energy in a short path, fragment, and spatter the critter.....but (1) I don't eat them (if I did, then they wouldn't be varmints...would be small game) and (2)they are not very large critters (so the proportion of energy to body weight is way high compared to medium/large game hunting).

OK - gonna make the assumption that we're talking edible game animals here - not varmits.

A further assumption is that the hits will be in the lethal kill zone of the animal.

We are limiting the discussion to two considerations, namely, whether it is more efficient to have a projectile that remains in the body cavity to expend 100% of the energy there, or one that has sufficient energy and mass to exit the animal at all normal hunting ranges.



Limiting my opinion to these two parameters, I will lean toward the bullet of such construction so as to hold together without fragmenting, be of a mass to open a proper wound channel and of enough energy to travel through and exit, leaving a reasonable sized hole. Pencil sized entry, quarter to half dollar sized exit holes.

From what I've personally witnessed, such wounds leave massive internal organ tissue damage in their wake, plus having the two holes for vital fluids to drain.

Notice there is no mention of hyper fast small calibers, nor plodding large meplat big calibers. They may both be used for the above mentioned game harvesting.

I'm of the opinion that 2 hole are better. Like kdub said about massive internal organ damage and assuming we're talking big game and not varmints.

A well constucted bullet that can make it through the bone mass of at least one shoulder and thru both lungs plus exit the other side or at least be under the hide will get the job done. Any critter that has had the air let out of both lungs isn't going very far.

RJ

I have given this more thought than I should but there are a lot of magnum fans out there, and there are a lot of two hole fans out there. meaning the bullet has an entry and an exit wound.

For example, lets say a 270 Win has around 1800 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards with a 130 grain bullet, and the bullet enters the animal and then exits the animal. It seems to me, that the bullet chosen has not let the caliber utilize all of its effective energy where it counts and that is inside the animal. This bullet performance probably didn't use half of the bullets effectiveness.
It really doesn't matter whether you are using a 300 Win Mag or a 243 Win, if the bullet choice doesn't allow your rifle its full effect on the animal.
Now, you will get a better blood trail with two holes, but at what sacrifice? Loss of bullet energy.

An old hunter friend of mine tried to beat this into my head years ago, but I thought bigger was better.

We used to use 243 Winchesters with 75 grain Norma HP with devastating results on deer. The bullet always stayed in the animal and blew up everything in sight. But the bullet speed was still very high. Try the same thing with a 130 to 150 grain 6 to 7 mm bullet at around 2500-2650FPS, and you would end up with the bullet using all its energy inside the animal.

The more I read about the older 6.5x55 and 7x57 loaded with the longer heavier bullets at slower speeds, the more I began to realize that these calibers used all of their energy inside the animal where it does the most good.
There is an interesting article about this at:

hold true hunting game. But I'm not sure that's the case.
www.eabco.com/Reports/report03.html

I have never paid that much attention to Ballistic Coeffecient, but the more I read and the more I see in the field, I'm changing my mind.
Even to the point of using highter BC bullets at slower speeds on my rifles.

I am fortunate enough to have a good pig area where I hunt, and I think I'll do some good old fashion field research on some pigs through the summer.
I think what I'm looking for in a bullet/ caliber combination is one where I can use a high BC bullet, that is flat shooting out to about 300 yards and uses all of its energy in the animal for maximum shock effect at normal shooting ranges.

All suggestions accepted.
Good Luck Tom

I long labored under the assumption that "energy" was the key to whole formula. And it had to be energy that was transfered to the critter. It could only do that by staying in 'em. But in the Buick example, that's clearly not the case. It's energy all right, but that energy has to do damage. You can whallop guy with a 50 lb bean bag chair and he'll probably roll him head over heels. He'll also probably bounce right up. If you calculate the energy, it would likely top some pretty serious hunting cartridges. So jjust banging on them isn't he whole answer.

I've pretty well abandoned the "energy" uber alles line of thinking. The "penetration" advocates are closer to the answer I think. It doesn't make a bit of difference whether the bullet stays in them, passes through, expands a whole lot of not very much, provided, to takes out internal equipment that is reqiured to sustain life, right now. Causing an absess in the lower GI tract won't get it done because the animal can run around for days with that. Blowing a hole in an aorta, taking out both lungs, breaking both shoulders and taking out the lungs, doing a through and through on the heart, pulverizing the brain or the spinal column will do it right now. It will kill them on the spot or within seconds. So long as the bullet does that, that is all that counts.

For those who argue that the bullet must stay in to dump its energy, the image of a sniper with .338 Lapaua, or a Berret .50 tagging some pour soul, always comes to my mind. Be assured, those bullets do not stay in. They howl right through. It's the damage they do in passing not the number of holes that kills.

My brothers got a case of the yips by shooting 300 win mags with poor recoil pads. Being fed up with recoil, they switched to the .243 WSSM. Everything from head shots (that's all that was available) to classic boiler room hits, the deer, dozens of them, go down on the spot. Sometimes the bullets pass through, sometimes not. But in all cases they punch holes through life sustaining internals. I've seen hunters kill elk with a .243. That's how it's done. Get the bullet in where the essential are, ruin them, and the animal dies.

First of all, a double-lung broadhead shot deer or elk with an exit wound won't go far at all. And I am not sure the arrow even has the energy of a .22 mag.

For bullets - you always want complete penetration. You just want violent expansion between the two holes. And you want a worst case penetrator for the animal you are shooting.

I know the Nosler ballistic tip gets a bad rap for holding together. Some of this comes from their early lots. Some of it comes from loading them too hot. But I tell you this after having over 25 midwestern deer dropped with my reloads: the .308 cal 165 grain at .308 or moderate .30-06 velocities is absolutley perfect for deer. I get complete pen 90% of the time and it's total lung soup. Most of the lungs are sucked out the exit hole. Hard to beat that.

Worst case? Three years back a big buck presented me with a 45 degree angle front quartering shoulder shot. I could have messed around with a neck shot or tried to slip one between the shoulders, but the medium range (150 yds) was a factor and there wasn't much time. So I centered up on the shoulder and boom, down he went. The 165 punched through the shoulder at its heaviest point the wrecked the entire cavity. No complete penetration, but totally lethal. This was a very big body deer and that is a shot that had always worried me after reading the Nosler BT stories. I worry no more!

I have other stories including a 2 yard shot on nice 8 point. (Yes, it was 6 feet away....perfect performance with no blow-up).

Would I use a 3000+ fps ballistic tip for deer - no. Would I use one at all for elk - no. The point is every caliber has perfect bullet/velocity combinations for the game your after. You want complete pentration with expansion on all reasonable shots and lethal penetration (no blow ups) on worst case shots.

>The more I read about the older 6.5x55 and 7x57 loaded >with the longer heavier bullets at slower speeds, the more I >began to realize that these calibers used all of their energy >inside the animal where it does the most good.


What you're talking about here is Sectional Density, not Ballistic Coefficient. Bullets with good SD are basically long (and heavy)-for-caliber, and the old 175 gr. 7mm and 160 gr. 6.5 mm bullets are classic examples of high SD. In their round-nosed form, their BC was not all that hot, but the SD made them fantastic penetrators , hence fabled killers of big game. Combine that penetration (usually through-and-through) with decent expansion and enough velocity for a useable trajectory out to 250-300 yards, and you've got a doozy of a big game round that'll slay 'em all day long and not wreck your shoulder in the process. Forget about using "all their energy inside the animal" -- what's important is what work that energy does as it passes through, the second hole is just a bonus,--and, who cares how much energy the bullet has left after it's done the work?

I remember reading an article by Ross Seyfried in which he took a Winchester High Wall in .30-40 and worked up an accurate load throwing a 220 gr. roundnose bullet at a leisurely 2000 fps. He then proceeded to pole-axe elk with it to 200 yards. That bullet didn't have a huge amount of energy at the muzzle, and even less at 200 yards, but it left elk leaking on both sides with everything in between wrecked. To me, that's just about ideal.

20+ years ago when the Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet first came out, they were touted as the be-all to end-all. (This was before there was much actual field experience with them. Later, they were much improved, and they needed the improvement!) I bought some, and worked up a super accurate load for my rifle with a 150 gr. Ballistic Tip running right at 2900 fps. Now, this load wasted not an ounce of energy. On broadside shots, it killed like lightning and usually the bullet ended up mushroomed -- and often fragmented -- just under the far-side hide. Perfect, right?

Well, one day I loaned the rifle to a buddy whose scope had gone haywire, and he tried a quartering-away shot on the biggest buck he'd ever see. The shot went just a couple inches too far right, with the end result that the left rear hip got demolished -- and the deer got up and continued a 3-legged run out of sight. Try as we might, we didn't find that buck until buzzards led us to it 2 days later.

I may not have the perfect answer for a perfect big-game load, but I'm sure it's NOT one that will expend all it's energy within the animal.

>
I bought some, and worked up a super accurate load for my rifle with a 150 gr. Ballistic Tip running right at 2900 fps. Now, this load wasted not an ounce of energy. On broadside shots, it killed like lightning and usually the bullet ended up mushroomed -- and often fragmented -- just under the far-side hide. Perfect, right?

Well, one day I loaned the rifle to a buddy whose scope had gone haywire, and he tried a quartering-away shot on the biggest buck he'd ever see. The shot went just a couple inches too far right, with the end result that the left rear hip got demolished -- and the deer got up and continued a 3-legged run out of sight. Try as we might, we didn't find that buck until buzzards led us to it 2 days later.

Your load was 100 to 150 fps too fast and more critically 15 grains off. See the 165 grain post above. Of course I have only missed to the rear twice on running deer. The first was a nice 8 point, jumping a fence right before dark. The bullet punched through the first quarter and wrecked the opposite one - quite a mess meat wise. But the animal only went 60yds (which is the farthest a BT shot deer has ever gone on me). The other one was a smaller deer that dropped quick. It was running quartering away.

If you want to load in the 3000 fps class, go to the accu-bond. I keep the BT 165s in the 2740 to 2800 fps range. The accuracy of these loads in amazingly consistent which is why I have stuck to them, but at this velocity, the expansion/penetration combo is perfect as well.

Have generally had more problems tracking critters that only had one hole, vs. two.

I don't use Ballistic Tips on hogs anymore, because of this.

Side note.... your example of the .270 Win, energy-wise, is head and sholders over what I used on my bison.

Your load was 100 to 150 fps too fast and more critically 15 grains off. See the 165 grain post above.


Oh, I agree 100%, except with those earliest Ballistic Tips it took loading them down to just over 2500 fps. At that speed, they performed like champs. I rarely use the '06 anymore, although I have a fine one. Instead, I stick mostly to .308 and .300 BRM using 180 gr. spitzers at 2500-2600 fps.In my rifles, this combo gives gilt-edged accuracy, is only down about 8" out at 300 yards (a very, very long range around here), and drills 'em dead, quick.

I wish that I had shot enough game to give an answer. I basicly shoot deer and coyotes with a .270 Win and old Winchester Silvertips. If I hit them right, they fall down. I have 2 stories for thought. The first is about an old friend with a .300Wby made pre 64. In the late 80's or early 90's, he shot a large buck with a Nosler Partition bullet at close range. The bullet went through that buck like it was armor piercing. He had to trail the deer to get him. The second story happened a couple of years ago to a son of a friend. He was shooting a 7mm Rem Mag with Ballistic Tip. He had a front shot at a buck facing him. He took a head shot, but hit low. He watched the buck run away with his lower jaw hanging. They never found the deer. He swears that the bullet exploded when it hit the deer's head. No matter how much planning goes into the hunt it seems like "stuff happens". Good luck.

George

I insist on total penetration on normal shots...it's probably the bowhunter in me. Like Mike said, tracking with one hole sucks.

There is something to be said for energy though. My in-line .50 cal loaded with 250 grain Hornady SSTs leaves a big hole going in and a bigger one coming out. You can't kill them anymore dead than it does. Still, I've noticed they tend to run a little ways - 50 to 75 yds (with a tremendous blood trail of course).

The .30-06 165 on the other hand tends to drop them quicker. It has more energy and expends more in the cavity.

IThere is something to be said for energy though. My in-line .50 cal loaded with 250 grain Hornady SSTs leaves a big hole going in and a bigger one coming out. You can't kill them anymore dead than it does. Still, I've noticed they tend to run a little ways - 50 to 75 yds (with a tremendous blood trail of course).



I've hunted deer since I was 13, 40 years now. I stopped counting the number I've killed at 125, back in 1984. I've taken at least another 125 since then. I've used a lot of different tools -- in handguns, .44 Spec., .44 Mag., .45 ACP, and .357 Mag; rifles, .223 Rem., 6.5X55, .30-30, .35 Rem., .308, .30-06, .300 BRM, .45-70, .300 WinMag, and .45 and .50 muzzleloaders, flintlock, percussion, and inline. Probably left out a few.

I feel safe in saying that nothing short of a good hit with a 105mm shell will guarantee a deer won't run off a ways! When they do, I really appreciate two holes.

Medium velocity cartridges with fairly long and heavy bullets kill well. They tend to hold a straight course despite smashing through bones and such. This is just one reason why the 7mm-08 and 6.5mm Swede drop 'em as quick as much faster magnum cartridges.

35 and 9.3mm calibers also kill well despite shorter bullets. This caliber(s) hits hard and transfers energy better than paper charts would suggest. For many decades the 35 Whelen was often referred to as the "working man's magnum" by popular authors. The largley ignored century old 35 Remington is still widely used by Canada's Cree hunters for moose.

I'm a big fan of the .243 cartridge and have hunted antelope with it nearly every year since the late 1960's. It does have limitations that should not be ignored. The .243 is a poor choice for gut shots or attempting to shoot through the entire length of an animal to reach the chest organs. The use of 95 grain Nosler Partition is wise for shots where double hole penetration is desired. Yet common 100 grain soft tip bullets will cause rapid death if both lungs are struck from a broadside angle. My brother shot a very heavy bodied muley 2 years ago with economy priced PMP ammo from South Africa. The bullet broke a rib going in and destroyed both lungs in an instant. Then it broke through a heavy shoulder bone and was found balled up under the hide. This buck bounded away at the shot but toppled after the first jump. Performace was quite good indeed!

Good hunting to you.
TR

Out of all the deer I have shot (not that many compared to some of you older gents) I only have had one that the bullet did not exit. A medium sized doe that took a .308 165gr gameking at a quartering towards me angle. The bullet went through her vitals, hit a rib on the other side and was found under the skin. She ran about 10yds and hit the ground like a sack of feed. With other deer it has been a big mix from droped in its tracks, to ran 100yds. Shooting calibers from .270 to 45/70. All were two hole shots and I think I would rather have two holes just for the tracking. You never know how far a deer will run, they are funny like that. Because of that fact alone I'd like to have as many bleeding holes as I can.

Medium velocity cartridges with fairly long and heavy bullets kill well. They tend to hold a straight course despite smashing through bones and such. This is just one reason why the 7mm-08 and 6.5mm Swede drop 'em as quick as much faster magnum cartridges.

35 and 9.3mm calibers also kill well despite shorter bullets. This caliber(s) hits hard and transfers energy better than paper charts would suggest. For many decades the 35 Whelen was often referred to as the "working man's magnum" by popular authors. The largley ignored century old 35 Remington is still widely used by Canada's Cree hunters for moose.

I'm a big fan of the .243 cartridge and have hunted antelope with it nearly every year since the late 1960's. It does have limitations that should not be ignored. The .243 is a poor choice for gut shots or attempting to shoot through the entire length of an animal to reach the chest organs. The use of 95 grain Nosler Partition is wise for shots where double hole penetration is desired. Yet common 100 grain soft tip bullets will cause rapid death if both lungs are struck from a broadside angle. My brother shot a very heavy bodied muley 2 years ago with economy priced PMP ammo from South Africa. The bullet broke a rib going in and destroyed both lungs in an instant. Then it broke through a heavy shoulder bone and was found balled up under the hide. This buck bounded away at the shot but toppled after the first jump. Performace was quite good indeed!

Good hunting to you.TR

I like to see the bullet balled up on the other side under the skin. To me, that's an example of using all of the bullets energy inside the animal. And you don't need to track them far.

I'm playing the devils advocate here and I'm happy with the shot whether the bullet goes all the way through or not but here's my example.

We have a hanging deer target at 300 yards at our range.
I made the first one out of 1/2" steel. When hit with a 243 win, or 30-06, the target would shake and when I went down to check, the bullets had passed through the steel.

So, I then tried 3/4" AR Steel plating.
What a difference. When hit with a 243, it sounded like the alarm bell on the Titanic. When hit with the 30-06, it nearly swung all the way over like a BB gun target would do.
That to me is an example of the target taking the whole force of the bullet. And just like an animal hit the same way, it seems to me that with the right bullet, you could have the animal absorb all of the bullet's force.
My experience is that they drop instantly or quicker than a through and through lung shot, that;s spurting blood out both sides.
Hey, I would take the results either way
Thx for the replies.

Hey Tom:

Been reading this thread with some interest, as I shoot a .270, and this discussion echos others, regarding energy vs. diameter vs. speed vs. penetration, etc...etc.

I posted this thing alont time ago, but have another look at the #s, and you'll notice 2 things:

1) at 100 yds, all .270 factory loads have well above 1800 ft/lbs of energy, except 1

2) other than 5 cartridges (4 at the high end, 1 at the low), almost all 34 cartridges are pretty close with their energy #'s, and this includes 130's, 140's, and 150's.

As always, it comes down to what purpose the cartridge/gun is to serve. There are now HUGE choices available to a hunter for any given hunt. The whitetail range of options (those calibers/cartridges which are adequate-to-excellent) is mind boggling. Oh, plus a well placed shot, and you're good to go.

This graph is a grab of most major maufacturer's .270 stuff. It's in Excel, so can be manipulated/rearranged as need be. This is a pic grab, so its static. If anyone wants this (including velocity, short range and long range trajectory #s) let me know, more than happy to share. And with a little time, you can easily substitute all sorts of calibers/manufacturers.

Edit: Uuhhhg. I can't upload it...its too big, and reducing it blurs the definition. I've pasted the raw data. I made charts from this..makes it easier to visualize. If anyone wants a copy, let me know. Kinda fun to play with the numbers. Charting is easy, and can be used to isolate data sets (grain, distance, etc). So you know, this one is currently sorted in decending order of energies @ 100 yrds.

Gents,

I can really see the merit on both sides of the discussion. Just like everything else, the where and how a fellow hunts has a great deal of impact.

In the West Kentucky hardwoods, I need a blood trail, so I will opt on the side of penetration. The briars and ground cover are such that without one chances are fair that a fellow will kill, and not find, and that has happened to me exactly once, on one that the bullet didn't exit, and the feeling almost ten years after the fact still resembles nausea.

Overkill, or lost energy through the animal and used on the cottonwood tree behind it, heck, that's fine with me, with all of the guns that don't have recoil issues. So I really won't use a traditional magnum to achieve an exit wound, and just opt for a little more weight, little more caliber, or a bullet with a harder stem for use in the woods.

Where the ground opens up a little, soybean, alfalfa fields and such, a softer, more readily expanding bullet makes sense, and I have used those on occasion as well. Not as concerned about the tracking part, more so with choosing the right spot and sticking it. I expect some of you fellows out west have ground similar to this around the parts that you all hunt, yes?

The point here is that a fellow ought to match his load to his circumstances, environment, and preferences, and have a ball doing it.

Best to all you fellows.

Steve

The energy dump MYTH again! I wish people would have taken physics in school!!! ;) :rolleyes:

sometimes those bullets that expend all their energy inside an animal don't get inside, and instead blow up after only very shallow penetration. this leads me to err on the side of caution for a bullet that will completly penetrate the body cavity. after all is said and done, you still must put it in the vitals. shot placement is the key no matter what