Read this with an open mind andl earn how a wound ballistics expert feels about the subject ..........


http://www.chuckhawks.com/terminal_performance_muzzleloading.htm

As stated in the article- This does not aplly the projectiles at 2000 + FPS. For pistols and ML FPE is not and will never be the factor which makes them a killer! Bullet Diameter and penetration are the key elements. This one of the reasons I prefer the .45 ACP for CCW and .50 and up for ML. I want the biggest hole -not counting on expansion-and pentration of atleast 12". And the biggest thing you have to do is put the bullet where it will do the most damage CNS shots . If you don't do that everything else is mute!

In nonexpanding bullets at it is the size of the meplat not bullet diameter that determines the size of the permanent wound channel. A .45 LC hardcast with a .36" meplat will do a whole lot more dammage than 45 acp RN, caliber and bullet wt being equal. Doubt me, plug the info into the Permanent Wound Channel calculator on the Beartooth web site. So I'll choose my Birds Head Vaquero over a 1911 with hardball.

In nonexpanding bullets at it is the size of the meplat not bullet diameter that determines the size of the permanent wound channel. A .45 LC hardcast with a .36" meplat will do a whole lot more dammage than 45 acp RN, caliber and bullet wt being equal. Doubt me, plug the info into the Permanent Wound Channel calculator on the Beartooth web site. So I'll choose my Birds Head Vaquero over a 1911 with hardball.

I like the 45LC with wide flat nose bullets too. But in only getting to choose between your choices of that or the 45 acp ball round, you are comparing apples and oranges. Better to compare 45LC round nose lead to 45acp ball ammo and 45LC wide flat to oh say a 230 grain truncated or maybe an HP. Compare non-expanding to non-expanding and controlled expansion and or flat noce to each other without handicapping one of the choices.

I like your choice of the one over the other, but how about we load that 1911 with 230 grain Hydrashocks or something of that nature. That way both would make an absolute mess out of anything they hit.

Im a Heavy-for-Caliber bullet guy myself. :D

Correct my thinking where it goes wrong.

Non expanding bullets transmit what energy they carry to the target as they penetrate.

Given the same bullet weight, welocity, and caliber, then only way to change energy transimission is by bullet shape.

The more flat (90 degree areas) frontal areas presented, the faster the energy deposit.


Slippery streamlined shapes are better at retaining their enegry as they pass through the air....this is becasue they deposit LESS energy in the air as they pass through.

Those same streamlined shapes (again, assuming non expansion) should be better at passing through, or deeper into, ANY soft target as they deposit less energy per unit of distance.

So...i's a ballance. given the same weight and caliber, or a non expanding bullet, it's about the rate of energy transfer per unit of distance.

It seems to be like driving a boat forwards or backwards. More speed(penetration) forward. More wake (shock) backward. Must strike a balance to do the job of getting there and doing the work when you get there.
Cheezywan

NonPCnraRN
I can understand where your coming from but a .452 -490" hole is better than a .366 or smaller! They tend to leak more!

NonPCnraRN
I can understand where your coming from but a .452 -490" hole is better than a .366 or smaller! They tend to leak more!

The permanent wound channel from a 45 hardcast with a .36" meplat at 850 fps (45acp vel) is 0.765 inches not .36". I was making comparison to 45 acp ball for those that think that ball ammo in a 1911 is all that is needed. The meplat on a truncated bullet 45 apc would determine the wound channel. The 45 acp hollowpoint many make a bigger hole initially but I don't think it will penetrate as well on a critter with claws and fangs. A Penn 45cal 270gr Thunderhead at 1000 fps penetrated 15" of wet newsprint at the Linebaugh seminar. The calculated wound channel for a meplat of .434 (45 Thunderhead) at 1000 fps is 1.085 inches. At 850 fps the wound channel is 0.922 inches. So foot pounds of energy ain't everything.

It is not just meplat. Veral Smith writes that he got 2+ inches diameter exit wounds on elk with through and through crosswise penetration.

Bigger meplat produces bigger hole but with same bullet at different velocities hole size should increase with velocity provided bullet doesn't fail.

This is the 'old' way of doing things. With the 'new' way is using controled expansion, thus a larger permanate and temporery wound with a smaller bullet. That is the reason a 357 mag causes more truma than the 45 WITH ANY BULLET. :rolleyes:
If you MUST use non-expanding bullets, then the larger the better IF YOU CAN GET ATLEAST 1000 FPS out of them. And yes the meplat makes a big differance in the wound it will cause. That is common knowlage as noted above. Wounds are caused by both frontal area, expanding or non-expanding, and VELOCITY, chosing the proper weight will give you the proper penatarion for the intended target.
Look at the 'real world' results. :)

This is the 'old' way of doing things. With the 'new' way is using controled expansion, thus a larger permanate and temporery wound with a smaller bullet. That is the reason a 357 mag causes more truma than the 45 WITH ANY BULLET. :rolleyes:
If you MUST use non-expanding bullets, then the larger the better IF YOU CAN GET ATLEAST 1000 FPS out of them. And yes the meplat makes a big differance in the wound it will cause. That is common knowlage as noted above. Wounds are caused by both frontal area, expanding or non-expanding, and VELOCITY, chosing the proper weight will give you the proper penatarion for the intended target.
Look at the 'real world' results. :)


Check out the damage done by a bullet at 950FPS on a large animal:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=29550&page=1

I already did that. I didn't see a chrony being used when this shot was made. Was it 950 or 973 or 962? (50 rounds up the 1000 in my book), plus this bullet weight at slightly less than 1000 makes up for a few feet per second!!! :cool:
This case proves my point! ;)

If you shoot with a 357 and kill your target because you hit it in the right place, would you kill it twice as dead because you shot it with a 454. Its all about adequacy and accuracy. If the calibre and bullet type are adequate and the shot is accurate the target is dead, end of story.

Gees i hope im right cause here in little johnnyland we cant get hold of big calibre hand guns, and cant carry for self defence anyway.

Bob

The point here is not 'dead is dead' as Elmer would say. The point here is how 'quickly' total incapation occurs in a defensive situation where quick can mean the differance in you living or dying. Or in a hunting situation the differance between humanly harvesting the animal or possibly lossing it to die a slow painfly death. That why I prefer to have a wide, deep (preferably through and through) wound. Knock down power and energy transfer are myths which just will not go away. But I guess in this day and age of 'a lack of common sense' that is to be expected. :(

The point here is not 'dead is dead' as Elmer would say. The point here is how 'quickly' total incapation occurs in a defensive situation where quick can mean the differance in you living or dying. Or in a hunting situation the differance between humanly harvesting the animal or possibly lossing it to die a slow painfly death. That why I prefer to have a wide, deep (preferably through and through) wound. Knock down power and energy transfer are myths which just will not go away. But I guess in this day and age of 'a lack of common sense' that is to be expected. :(

I agree with the above comments. The old way with large caliber and meplat or the new way with controlled expansion, as long as it makes a big hole through and through, the "how" shouldn't really matter. What stops either an attacker or a game animal is when brain function ceases. This will occur from direct trauma or blood loss. The bigger the hole or holes with a through and through, the sooner the brain ceases to function. There is no direct correlation between foot pounds of energy and the size of the hole.

So what it's basically saying is that ftlbs energy isn't the "end all" of bullet lethality?

I knew that all along. Comparisons between the .30 Carbine and .45 ACP FMJ military rounds considering penetration is equal (which means it would have to be a close range shot) proves that a bigger hole is better.

Here is another link that shows that velocity isn't as important as penitration and caliber.
http://leverguns.com/articles/lupo/lupo.htm

I've hunted all my life. Most of the early years in order to eat. I've even shot and cleanly dropped adult whitetails with everything from a .300 Savage to the .45-70 and even the lowly .22lr. I can't recall any problems with any round when I did my part.

I've also had the SICKENING experience of having to shoot my fellow humans, both in a military situation and once, (Thank God only once!), during a home break-in. That incident had 12 rounds fired. Eleven 9mm by the bad guy, one .45 Colt by me. It was a 250 grain lead semi-wadcutter, kinda high & centered in the chest, and I vomited when I saw what it did. Standard load, around 800fps. I've not been a huge believer in the 1000fps rule since.

My view, which may have meaning only to me, is that bullet placement is EVERYTHING. That said, however, when all else is equal, give me the largest bored weapon I can handle. (Well, varmits are a different matter. Give me my new .204 Ruger for that business!)

I've built flintlocks for the last 20 years and prefer them to modern guns for hunting. My personal rifle is a .50 cal. It kills vrey efficently and I thought that nothing would top it. That is until I built and learned how to properly shoot my 20ga. smootbore with .600 round balls. To date not one creature has been able to take the first step when that impact occurs. They are literally swept of their feet! No kidding! My brother used a .75 cal Hawkin RIFLE on a bear hunt. A 600lb. black bear rolled backwards when hit center at the base of the throat with that slug.

Learn how to handle your weapon is the first and foremost Rule. After that, go for the absolute largest hole you can poke into your target. These rules will keep you fed and may just save your bacon if my experiences are of any use.