At present I'm about to have a Martini Henry MkII converted into a switch barrel custom and am deciding on which cals are suitable for my possible needs.
While I don't hunt buffs at present I intend at some point to head north and do so, even if it's just once in my life.
Meantime a bigbore I can use for hogs in close would be useful.
As such the .444 Marlin seems like a possible suspect.
But what concerns me is that none of the bullets presently made for the Marlin actually seem to be up to buffalo.
While a hard cast bullet may do it I'd rather have the reassurance of a jacketed bullet.
Water buffs are tougher than bear or moose and while they're much more docile than a cape buffalo they don't stay that way when they get hit.
Their bone structure is very tough and their muscle density is high so I would need a bullet capable of serious penetration.
And you need to put the hurt on a buff first shot, especially with a single shot rifle.
So who actually makes serious dangerous game bonded core bullets for .444?
I've seen Cor-Bon's stuff but do they sell their bullets as components?

As much as I like the .444, might look at some of he wildcats based on the .444case. Your OAL requirments and ability to use bullets forbidden to tube mags. would be pluses for one of the .375/411/416 versions based on this case.

Hi Kombi,

As fate would have it, I got to see a couple of water buffalo and american bison shot in early May, with a variety of calibers. You can see my "882 ft-lbs....." thread for a picture of my bison, it's near the top of the first page on the General Discussion forum.

The attached picture is gunsmith Jack Huntington, who was doing some field testing of his own .500 JRH cartridge, in a Magnum Research handgun.

Jack shot his buffalo with a 425gr. truncated-cone solid, at a muzzle velocity rated to be 1350fps. The buff took the bullet through both shoulders, ran all of about 10 yards, and fell over dead.

After it was dead, Jack shot it a few more times just to be able to compare bullet performance with his new cartridge. In addition to his 425gr./1350fps load, he put a 440gr. / 950fps bullet through the beast, and 9.3x74 shooting both 320gr. Woodleigh solids and soft points.

I think that he shot it again with the 425 loading, as well, but I could be wrong.

Anyway..... we recovered one of the 425gr. solids (pretty sure this was from his first shot), the 440gr. solid, and one or two of the 9.3x74 soft points. The two 9.3x74 solids exited, and I think he had one of the 425s that exited as well.

Keep in mind that the 9.3x74 ballistics aren't much behind the .375 H&H.

Now.... based on this..... some conclusions:

1. Rifle soft points (in the .375 H&H class) may not exit.

2. Rifle solids will probably exit.

3. A big, heavy bullet moving slowly will penetrate a LOT farther than you think. It was a big surprise to all of use that the 'slow' load for the .500 JRH, at 'only' 950fps, went through the buffalo. In fact, all recovered bullets were just under the skin on the far side of the critter.

There is a way for the .444 to work, and then there is also a way for the .444 to get you into real trouble. You may want jacketed bullets.... but frankly, I would not, unless they were fully-jacketed solids.

I have been hunting this year with my .444 Marlin (in fact I was going to shoot my bison with it but the opportunity to use the new .500 JRH was too tempting). My load for the .444 Marlin is the Beartooth 290gr. LFN, running at about 2,000fps.

Let me tell you, for those who have not seen the wound channel that a flat-nosed cast bullet makes at rifle velocities, it is a sight to behold. You DO NOT need expanding bullets in a .444 caliber rifle.

Being that you are in Australia, that sort of makes it a difficult proposition for you to pick up the phone and order some of the Beartooth bullets, at least at any sort of reasonable cost.

Long winded... but I think that there is some good evidence to support the notion that you can easily take a water buffalo or two with a good, heavy, cast bullet in the .444. See what you can come up with locally..... I think something in the 270-300grain range would be perfectly suitable, at a MV of around 2,000fps.

If you do find some, let me suggest a simple load - I use Hodgdon Varget which I believe originated in Australia as Mulwex 2208. Please check that information carefully, as I am going from memory. I can assure you, that the load is simply as much Varget as you can stuff in the .444 brass.

Recovered bullets - on the left, a 9.3x74 soft point, then two of the .50 cal cast handgun bullets. I believe that one of the handgun bullets is the 425 and the other is the 440, as that is what I remember Jack telling me at the time. The nose profiles are slightly different.

Hope this helps.

It sounds as if I really should wait until Woodleigh makes a bullet designed for the .444 Marlin or I should alternatively get a cartridge like the 500 Alaskan.
I guess a 45-70 is the simplest solution as there are solids designed for the 458 Win Mag but it just seems boring.
I originally had thought of getting a 450/400 Nitro Express 2 3/8" but getting a reamer and cases for this cartridge would be very exy.
The .444 Marlin wildcats ribbonstone spoke of certainly may be better.
SSK's line of JDJ cartridges based on the 444 might be a solution but I'd rather have a factory cartridge so perhaps I should just go a 45-70.

I have a 350 grs mold from Mountain Molds that cast very nice bullets for my old 1/38 micro-groove Marlin.
The bullet is very accurate in my rifle.

We dont have any water buffalo here in Sweden, but I have used them for our moose.
I load them to 2030 - 2035 fps out of my 22 in barrel, and I really think that they would handle the buffalo very good.

Go with the 444, buy or cast some good 350 grs bullets, and go after the water buffalo.

We've had many customers shoot both South American and Asiatic Water Buffalo with the Triple-Four and our bullets, as well as African Cape Buff, all with excellent reports.

The link below is from a customer and his friend who used the .444 and our bullets to harvest a South American water buffalo, you might find it encouraging.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/field_performance/archive_field.htm/7

God bless,

Marshall, do you guys export to Australia?
That's the rub, see.

Grizzly ammo makes a 444 Marlin with a 300 gr. Bonded Core JFP @ 2100 fps, 2937 ft-lbs.

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/Detail.bok?no=37

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/stores/grizzly/catalog/DSC00002m_bg.jpg

And a 320 gr Wide Long Nose Gas Check at 2050 fps, 2985 ft-lbs.

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/Detail.bok?no=36

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/stores/grizzly/catalog/DSC00003m_bg.jpg

Will the HAWK 300gr bonded core JFP hold up when used on dangerous game such as large bears and cape buffalo when fired at rifle velocities. Is it designed for rifle or pistol use.

Thanks

Will the HAWK 300gr bonded core JFP hold up when used on dangerous game such as large bears and cape buffalo when fired at rifle velocities. Is it designed for rifle or pistol use.

Thanks

The Hawk bonded core bullets will expand creating a larger wound channel and hydrostatic shock. According to Hawk, the bonded core design retains 90% or better bullet weight assurring complete penetration and a large exit wound.

I would say that at rifle velocities, that type of bullet is the best of both worlds. They have separate .430 bullets listed for the .444 Marlin and the .44 Rem. Mag., so I would think that the ones for the .444 are designed for rifle velocities.

http://www.hawkbullets.com/maintest.htm

dude, I say Go with The Marlin 1895 in 45-70, yo can't go wrong with it. If you want light jacketed bullets, go 300 at 2300fps, if you want a FmJ or hard cast lead in a medium weight, go with a 400-415 @ about 1900 fps, you want super heavy hard cast lead, Go with a 550 gr @1550-1600 fps. Garret offers some incredible and heavy load combinations for the 45-70. Added bonus: with the marlin 1895Cowboy, yo get 8 extra bullets in the tube.

ive tried about every jacketed bullet i can find in the .444 hornadys in 240 265 300 speer 240 270 300 and some sierras the speer 300 gets the best penatration but i can tell you from experience on black bears that a big entrance would makes a bear angry and a big exit wound makes a bear dead fast. and a good hard cast bullet wil make an exit wound on most things. if a hard cast in 300grain or bigger 444 wont do it for you id have someone cut me some bronze bullets on a lathe with a big flat nose and load them into a .50 bmg case and shoot it from a mile away.

if you must use box ammo i would recomend anything from grizzly, cor bon, or buffalo bore over 300 grains gas checked in a cast bullet the 320 grizzly wlngc shoots well from my 444ss 3 inch groups open sights at 100 yards

i did some tests shooting into wet newspapper the spere 300 bullet penatratet 15 inches shot from 50 yards the grizzly 320 went through all 30 inches of papper i had set up and made about a 5 inch hole on the off side recovered bullet was very slightly deformed

Without a doubt I would use a head cast bullet over any bonded core bullets for the .444 on Water buffalo. A hard cast bullet will penetrate better than any bonded core bullets made for the for .44 cal.

I was reloading 320 gr. hard bast bullets for my 444 Marlin.

if i remember corectly the 40-65 wcf was considered an eccelent dangerous game cartridge and it was loaded with soft lead bullets. so the 444 with bigger heavier stronger faster bullets i would think should do well. also the bhn or hardness of most boded bullets is i think 6 while a hard cast will be between 28-30 which is i believe close to what the copper jacket is on the boded bullet. also an expanding bullet loses speed as it expands and as we all know speed causes more damage. a flat nose cuts better and so loses les speed and causes more damage. an expanding jacketed bullet takes on a more rounded shape thus causing less damage. also as the nose expands it spreads the energy across a larger area which helps to slow the bullet and cause less damage. in a cartridge doing 2600 feet per second or more theres pleanty of speed to waste not to metion a sharp point while increasing efective range doesnt do much damage so my point would be fast small bore long range cartridges need an expanding bullet slow big bore cartridges should use a good hard cast or solid. my guess is that for an expanding jacketed bullt to match the damage potential of a hard cast in the 444 it would have to be 450 grains or larger to do what a 320 would do and it would need to be pushed to unsafe pressures to do it(this is mostly personal opinion mixed with various experience testing and others advice and testing)

also if your that worried over it look into the .457 wild west magnum its a hopped up 45-70 it seems to be the new fad for the big bears

highwayman, I like the way you think..... :)

ive read seveal articals on new custom gun trends and what works and what doesnt. the end line in every one is that if you THINK it works it does. and i would venture to think that if you think a 45-70 would do a better job than you will probably not put the .444 bullet where it needs to go to kill the critture just your subconcous mind trying to prove you right. so for safetys sake use what you think will do the bast job

I'll add to that.
There are a number of ammo and bullet manufacturers listed who make 444 loads and projectiles which are allegedly appropriate for water buffalo.
I'm not going to argue whether they are or not but every one that is mentioned is in the USA.
At present you need a Dept of Defence permit to import or export projectiles, even hunting bullets, and you should try importing live ammo.
So short of developing your own hard cast bullets and rounds which do not have the same sort of testing that the commercial ones do a .444 suddenly seems less than ideal.

the .416 rigby is a very popular dangerous game round and it should be avaliably anywhere there is dangerous game it is also VERY stout

I used a 416 Rigby for my Water Buffalo. I had it loaded with 300 gr. Barnes X bullets. One shot was all it took, but shot placement was dead on. I recovered the bullet after in went through both shoulders and both lungs, I saw a big bump on the exit side of the Water buffalo. When we were skinning it out, I found the bullet, it was the perfect Barnes X mushroom.
I wish I would of used my Marlin 45-70, I am more than sure it would of worked just as good with hard cast bullets.

Hi Kombi1976!
If you like to try some heavy hard cast bullets, I can send some to you.
I would love to see some pictures and read the story of you killing a big waterbuff with the 444 loaded with my 350 gr MM bullets.

If you want some bullets, just pm me your adress, and I send some to you!

//Olle

A couple things stood out to me in your posts:

One is that you thought it might be a little borring to travel the slighlty more beaten path of the 45-70. (Although I have a 45-70, I understand that everyone has a magnum big bore that just makes them that much more excited about the hunt...if the 444 is yours, then you probably won't entirely scratch that itch with another cartridge). :) The numbers are there for that cartridge/gun combo, and it would be a shame for you to miss out on that.

Another thing you mentioned was about bullet performance and and adequate testing. If you are still looking, you might want to check out Belt Mountain's 44 cal Punch Bullet in 300g. Punch bullets have been tested for years at the Linebaugh Penetration seminars, and have always performed remarkably. I personally think a brass solid is overkill (I really like hard cast), but if you want something tried and true, it fits the bill. Even launched at slower velocities than that of the 444, the bullet is a killer. All you have to do is load your 444 with such bullets, and you have pretty much the exact bullet that you would have in a Grizzly Punch or a 444 Corbon 305g Penetrator.

Anyway, whatever you choose, I'm sure you'll have fun, but I do honestly believe in math, and I thereby believe that you can take a water buff with any big bore mag if you have a proper bullet, and if you are at the proper range when you take your shot.

Oh, and if someone can send you cast bullets, well I don't see what the harm would be in setting up 6 feet or so of wet newsprint and letting a few fly. If you know someone with a 416, you can test their factory ammo up againt your results, and I am confident you'll feel confident about the hard casts.


Best of luck to you!

JH


I'll add to that.
There are a number of ammo and bullet manufacturers listed who make 444 loads and projectiles which are allegedly appropriate for water buffalo.
I'm not going to argue whether they are or not but every one that is mentioned is in the USA.
At present you need a Dept of Defence permit to import or export projectiles, even hunting bullets, and you should try importing live ammo.
So short of developing your own hard cast bullets and rounds which do not have the same sort of testing that the commercial ones do a .444 suddenly seems less than ideal.