My son is working on a 4H project of his choosing. I suggested that we gather information from the members of the shooters forum.

Here is the project. He is comparing a factory load 180 grain round nose to a 180 grain Hornady hand load round nose. We will be using IMR 4350 for our powder. We will be shooting at 100 yards in the test. The question is, What load have the forum members found to be the most accurate for this bullet? We will be using a Winchester Model 70. As we have not loaded or shot a round nose before, this will be a great adventure for both of us. :confused:

Thanks for the help.

Brad, and Joseph
Hebrews 10:39

Brad S. it sounds like a great father son project!

Sorry, I can't help you on those round nose bullets going down the barrel of your model 70 Winchester....Great Rifle!!!
I used 180 grain Sierra's in my years ago for target shooting and used Nosler partitions in the 180 for deer mostly. I did load up some 220 grain semi-spitzers on several occasions for moose, being in bear country good idea.

Brad S. it sounds like a great father son project!

Sorry, I can't help you on those round nose bullets going down the barrel of your model 70 Winchester....Great Rifle!!!
I used 180 grain Sierra's in my years ago for target shooting and used Nosler partitions in the 180 for deer mostly. I did load up some 220 grain semi-spitzers on several occasions for moose, being in bear country good idea.


Cozy
Thanks. I typically use Hornady 165 SP. Mainly for deer. That being said, Joseph chose to expand the horizon a bit. I too think it is a great idea. Next year we can compare a SP to a RN for his project.

Brad
Hebrews 10:39

The question is, What load have the forum members found to be the most accurate for this bullet?
Brad, and Joseph
Hebrews 10:39


Were I at home with my reloading log I could give you 3 or 4 "most accurate" loads. Problem is, each is most accurate in only one of my rifles. Anyone who tells you that such-and-such a load is "the" most accurate is blowing smoke. You have to determine which is most accurate in your rifle.

Remington brass, Federal primer and 56.7 grains of H4350 worked good for me and 180 grain Hornady round noses. I think I still have some loaded up someplace. Have no idea what the velocity is. This load was developed for the old Enfield so I can't say what it would do in your Wimpchester.

Good luck, have fun and be safe.

RJ

Were I at home with my reloading log I could give you 3 or 4 "most accurate" loads. Problem is, each is most accurate in only one of my rifles. Anyone who tells you that such-and-such a load is "the" most accurate is blowing smoke. You have to determine which is most accurate in your rifle.


Pisgah
Thanks. I fully agree. His plan is to have an idea of where to actually start at and move in 1/2 grain increments, testing to see what happens. I am very interested to see how the model 70 shoots the round nose. It could be a rather long test at the shooting range, :D

Brad
Hebrews 10:39

Sounds like you guys have a fun project ahead of you.

In my rifle, I got good accuracy out of Speer 180 grain RN bullets with 55.6 grains of IMR 4350 in an R-P case with CCI Large Rifle primers. 2740 fps average out of a 24 inch barrel. Your results with this would probably be different.

Sounds like you guys have a fun project ahead of you.

In my rifle, I got good accuracy out of Speer 180 grain RN bullets with 55.6 grains of IMR 4350 in an R-P case with CCI Large Rifle primers. 2740 fps average out of a 24 inch barrel. Your results with this would probably be different.


Thanks

While the project will be a power point presentation, I will post the core findings on the thread when he completes it. Presentation day is July 12 so it will have to be completed by then.

Brad
Hebrews 10:39

Thanks

While the project will be a power point presentation, I will post the core findings on the thread when he completes it. Presentation day is July 12 so it will have to be completed by then.

Brad
Hebrews 10:39

Brad you tell Joe that I wish him the best on this 4-H project! I am sure he will do well too. :D :D

After reviewing the posts on the thread, talking to a local reloading experts, researching through the Hornady reloading manual, Nosler reloading manual as well as the 48th Lyman manual, Joseph picked out three loads, 55 grain, 55.5 grain and 56 grain. He loaded up the shells on Wednesday while I took the pictures. We are looking forward to shooting the rounds sometime next week. I will be shooting, he will be taking pictures. At that point he either finishes up the project with his conclusions or we head back into the reloading room to try some other loads. The factory loads will be shot when he decides the hand load level that is most accurate.

Brad
Hebrews 10:39

I've shot lots of different bullets out of my Interarms Mk X, and IMR 4350 was the best powder across the board ( didn't try H4350 tho' ).

In all cases I graphed the accuracy, and they all had best accuracy 1½ gr short of the max listed in the IMR book:
http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/30-06-2005apr03.php

For 180's, max is 56.5 gr, so I'd expect best accuracy at 55.0.

Saturday we took the model 70 out to the range with the bullets Joseph loaded. We had a great time.

We compared out loads to a Federal 180 grain RN. Our loads that Joseph loaded up were Hornady 180 grain RN at 55 grain, 55.5 grain and 56 grain powder loads. The power used was IMR 4350 as stated above. The factory load had strong recoil with the primer showing normal pressure. The dispersion on the target was 2 7/8 inches at 100 yards. The 55 grain load was the most accurate at 1 1/2 inches. Both the 55.5 and 56 grain load performed at 1 5/8 inches. The 55 grain had light recoil as well as light pressure on the primer. The 55.5 recoil was similar with a primer that was flattened. The 56 had strong recoil with the primer showing high pressure, including bolt impact evidence. The 56 load would be the maximum we would feel safe with.

We were unable to accurately test the fps of the factory load. The 55 grain load was 2,758 fps, 55.5 was 2,784 and the 56 was 2,801.

While Joseph's project is now in the final power point part of the project, we will test 54.5 and 54 in the near future just to see how it works out. His working papers include the comments from all the tread participates. He will also be detailing Shooters Forum and what it is in the presentation.

Thank you to all who participated. It really helped him decide the loads to use.

On my side, it showed me the round nose was as accurate as the spire points that I typically use. Thanks, again.

Brad
Hebrews 10:39 :)

For all those who responded to this post, thank you.

The judging at the Sherburne County Fair was today. Joseph earned a Grand Champion Ribbon as well as an invitation to present his project at the Minnesota State Fair in late August. Any of those who are from Minnesota can look for the project in the 4H building. The project is titled, Comparing Factory Loads to Hand Loads. It is in a three ring note book with a color photo of a Nosler book as well as a number of reloading supplies included.

I would be glad to down load the power point presentation onto the Shooters Forum web site if that is possible. If one of the moderators would provide instructions, I would gladly down load the presentation. By the way, we printed out all of the posts in this thread. The posts were part of the presentation detailing how he arrived at the loads that were chosen.

Again, thanks for all the help.

Brad S.
Hebrews 10:39

Congratulations to your son, my first science fair project was a comparision of different cartridges and their relative penetration

Congratulations to your son, my first science fair project was a comparision of different cartridges and their relative penetration


That sounds interesting. What was the results?

Brad S
Hebrews 10:39

The 270 Winchester out penetrated the 243 winchester and the 222 Remington, brilliant conclusion I know, but it was a 4th grade project, I would have done it a little bit differently now

The 270 Winchester out penetrated the 243 winchester and the 222 Remington, brilliant conclusion I know, but it was a 4th grade project, I would have done it a little bit differently now


What did you shot into?

Joseph is already talking about next years project. One item he wanted to try is to pull the bullet off a factory load, measure the powder, replicate with a hand load and see if there is a difference. Basically we would try to fix the constant on everything except the type of powder. The concern I have is that not knowing the exact powder that the factory uses, we could not necessarily safely use another powder in the same volume.

Something along your project line might also work. Maybe measuring the penetration of a SP vs a RN vs a boat tail vs etc. all with the same loads.

Brad S
Hebrews 10:39

I shot into 2x12's If I were to do it over, I would test 1 bullet, in 1 chambering with the goal of finding the optimal velocity for expansion and weight retention, with an eye towards whether an increase in velocity proportionally increases the amount of penetration, e.g. does penetration increase by 2" for every 100fps in velocity increase, also looking for the velocity at which you get the largest mushroom without excessively loosing retained weight. I think I would use something like the bullet test tube, more info can be found at www.thebullettesttube.com

I shot into 2x12's If I were to do it over, I would test 1 bullet, in 1 chambering with the goal of finding the optimal velocity for expansion and weight retention, with an eye towards whether an increase in velocity proportionally increases the amount of penetration, e.g. does penetration increase by 2" for every 100fps in velocity increase, also looking for the velocity at which you get the largest mushroom without excessively loosing retained weight. I think I would use something like the bullet test tube, more info can be found at www.thebullettesttube.com


That does sound like a great idea. With the cheaper technology available today to measure velocity it makes it somewhat affordable. However, the cost of the Bullet Tube would be excessive for our budget. Secondly, we would have to bring it to a 12 year old level so the judges do not roll their eyes and figure it was Dad's project, fronted by the son. Besides a 2X12 what else would work to effectively measure penetration in a 30-06 that would somewhat replicate the tissue of a deer?

Brad
Hebrews 10:39

Soaked newspaper or phone books (wetpack) are as good as it gets without blowing the budget. It's not meat, but it's close. Tie newspaper into loose bundles about 4-6" thick and soak for 24+ hours. Weigh bundles so they're completely under water. The paper will swell about 50%. I'd expect about 16" penetration, but a control load is helpful if you're not able to do all your testing at the same time and with the same batch of wetpack. If a bullet doesn't expand, expect at least 36" of penetration. A good backstop is necessary.

Bye
Jack

The State Fair is finally over. Last friday was the judging for Shooting Sports. Joseph took home a blue ribbon. The first place, Grand Champion went to a young man who made a Ghillie Suit. This was an incredble project with over 2000 patches sewn onto the suit. He designed it and with the help of his grandmother, had it completed. He had a history associated with the whole idea of Ghillie suits. He had pictures showing himself in brush with and without the suit. With the suit on you really could not see him, it was that good. After the judging Joseph said that the Ghillie suit was the best of all the projects. The winner fully deserved to win.

Overall this was a great project and a great experience. Joseph even got to stay for two nights at the fair at the 4 H building.

Thanks again to all who provided help. Shooters Forum got a nice plug with the posts being presented to the whole Shooting Sports members being judged.

Brad S.
Hebrews 10:39