I'm just getting back into rifles after a long time bow hunting an I'm looking for a good varmint rifle that'll also work for shooting whitetail and hogs. I hunt nearly every weekend in South Texas and the ranch that my friend owns has a real problem with coyotes, not to mention a huge number of 'coons and other varmits that he'd like cut down somewhat. However, the ranch has some incredible whitetail and huge hogs and I'd like to buy a gun that would work for hunting them as well, if I wanted to.

My first instinct was to go with a .243 since that's what I grew up using (25-30 years ago) for an all-around varmint gun and I've shot a fair number of deer with it as well. When I mentioned this to soem friends, though, they suggested I take a look at some of the newer calibers that have grown popular in recent years. I started looking around and I'm, now, 'tossing around' the .25 & .243 Winchester Super Short Magnum (WSSM), the Remington 6MM, the .22-250 and the .25-06. From looking at what ballistics charts I could find, and trying to remember what I could about ballistics from my younger years, I'm leaning heavily towards the Winchester .25 WSSM. It seems to pack the most velocity and "punch" of all the calibers I've been considering while maintaining nearly as flat a trajectory as any of the others- certainly within the 300-or-so yards I would be shooting.

However, I was a little confused by the Winchester ballistics charts that contained what they called, "Trajectory, Short Range Yards" & "Trajectory, Long Range Yards." I can't, for the life of me, figure out what the difference is between "Long Range" and "Short Range" Yards. Can someone please explain the difference to me, as well as it's significance to someone planning to use the cartridge for varmints?

I found a Winchester .243 WSSM, with a synthetic stock, at Walmart for $379 which included a Burris 3-9 X 44 scope already mounted. However, I like the .25 WSSM a lot better because it offers me several choices of cartridge- varying from 65 to 120 grains- which would make it useful for a variety of purposes/animals. Also, I'd prefer a wood stock, since that's all I've ever used; but I'd be open to trying the synthetic if it made a significant price difference. I'm curious to hear what people have to say about synthetic stocks. Also, how difficult will it be for me to find a Winchester in the caliber I want if I choose to go with the Winchester? I realize that they closed their New Haven plant, but I'm hopin gthat there are still enough new rifles out there that I'd be able to find one relatively cheap, like the one I saw at Walmart. Are there still a lot of these Winchester varmint rifles floating around new?

I'm hoping that I can get some practical information, from other forum members, that will help me make this decision- which rifle/caliber would you choose for the purpose I designated. I'm hoping to keep the price of the rifle under about $500.

Thanks, in advance, for any help I receive!

Nick Anderson
Austin, TX

I was a little confused by the Winchester ballistics charts that contained what they called, "Trajectory, Short Range Yards" & "Trajectory, Long Range Yards." I can't, for the life of me, figure out what the difference is between "Long Range" and "Short Range" Yards.

I will see if I can help out here. When they show you the trajectories, they have two like you have noted. Long range and short range. The only difference is the distance at which they have the rifle at "zero". The short range might be zero'd at 100 yards, and the long range might be at 200-250 yards. This just gives you different trajectories to see depending on what distance you might be zeroing in your rifle.

As far as a caliber, you picked a good one, but I too am a .243 fan for a good all around caliber. Its been around for awhile and not many gun makers are making the wssm calibers other than Winchester and a few others. Thats why I like the .243. Can buy them from about any gun maker. I personally like the Savage for its out of the box accuracy. Beats anything out there.

I'm just getting back into rifles after a long time bow hunting an I'm looking for a good varmint rifle that'll also work for shooting whitetail and hogs. I hunt nearly every weekend in South Texas and the ranch that my friend owns has a real problem with coyotes, not to mention a huge number of 'coons and other varmits that he'd like cut down somewhat. However, the ranch has some incredible whitetail and huge hogs and I'd like to buy a gun that would work for hunting them as well, if I wanted to.

My first instinct was to go with a .243 since that's what I grew up using (25-30 years ago) for an all-around varmint gun and I've shot a fair number of deer with it as well. When I mentioned this to soem friends, though, they suggested I take a look at some of the newer calibers that have grown popular in recent years. I started looking around and I'm, now, 'tossing around' the .25 & .243 Winchester Super Short Magnum (WSSM), the Remington 6MM, the .22-250 and the .25-06. From looking at what ballistics charts I could find, and trying to remember what I could about ballistics from my younger years, I'm leaning heavily towards the Winchester .25 WSSM. It seems to pack the most velocity and "punch" of all the calibers I've been considering while maintaining nearly as flat a trajectory as any of the others- certainly within the 300-or-so yards I would be shooting.

However, I was a little confused by the Winchester ballistics charts that contained what they called, "Trajectory, Short Range Yards" & "Trajectory, Long Range Yards." I can't, for the life of me, figure out what the difference is between "Long Range" and "Short Range" Yards. Can someone please explain the difference to me, as well as it's significance to someone planning to use the cartridge for varmints?

I found a Winchester .243 WSSM, with a synthetic stock, at Walmart for $379 which included a Burris 3-9 X 44 scope already mounted. However, I like the .25 WSSM a lot better because it offers me several choices of cartridge- varying from 65 to 120 grains- which would make it useful for a variety of purposes/animals. Also, I'd prefer a wood stock, since that's all I've ever used; but I'd be open to trying the synthetic if it made a significant price difference. I'm curious to hear what people have to say about synthetic stocks. Also, how difficult will it be for me to find a Winchester in the caliber I want if I choose to go with the Winchester? I realize that they closed their New Haven plant, but I'm hopin gthat there are still enough new rifles out there that I'd be able to find one relatively cheap, like the one I saw at Walmart. Are there still a lot of these Winchester varmint rifles floating around new?

I'm hoping that I can get some practical information, from other forum members, that will help me make this decision- which rifle/caliber would you choose for the purpose I designated. I'm hoping to keep the price of the rifle under about $500.

Thanks, in advance, for any help I receive!

Nick Anderson
Austin, TX


Welcome to the forum Nick. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.

I can't tell you about the Winchester super short magnums, but I'd recommend you stick to standard calibers. I personally have used the 243 for a lot of years and now use two different rifles for varmit hunting. I mostly hunt coyotes and have a Ruger #1B with a 26 inch BBl and a Remington VLS 26 inch Heavy BBl.

Both are loaded with 55 grain Noslers at just under 4000 fps for yotes and are devistating out as far as I can shoot. For Deer I use 95 grain Barns bullets and they kill well.

The 25-06 or even a 257 Roberts would also be a good choice for a dual purpose gun.

As far as Winchester availability, there are still rifles around, but the supply will eventually dry up. You might check out the offerings from Savage, Ruger and Remington. The Savages with the new accu-triggers are some of the most accurate out of the box rifles I've shot in the last few years. You might also look at some of the fine CZ rifles.

I've always been a Remington fan, but a quality rifle from any of the big companies usually will deliver the accuracy you need for yote hunting.

Again welcome to the forum and good luck in your search for that dual purpose yote and deer rifle.

Welcome to the forum Nick. Rules are simple, be nice and join in...

I can't tell you about the Winchester super short magnums, but I'd recommend you stick to standard calibers.

...Again welcome to the forum and good luck in your search for that dual purpose yote and deer rifle.

I second the above...Stick to the Standard-Calibers to start-with.

- The Standard/.243Win will work for what you are after.
- I use mine with 55's for both predators and varmints...
...and with 90GRN/Scirocco-II's...it is absolute-terminal with everything else.

Go with the 243...its a "Wal Mart" caliber...

almost as prolifigate as a 308, 30-30, 30-06 etcetra etcetra...


plus its easy to reload for...

Only if you want to stick under 5 bills, go with a savage and a decent scope...

Had the opportunity to shoot a Savage in 308 with the accutrigger and a nice Leupy VX-II 3-9 and I must say its as sweet to shoot as my tweaked Brno mauser 308.

MTCW
D

Also...why DOES Austin want to be kept Wierd?

Horitexan -

I went through the same decision making process last month when my wife wanted a rig that she could shoot yotes and deer with, and maybe even some groundhogs. I ended up going with the 243. The 22 caliers are out of course. When you look at the trajectories that are corrected for zero, the 243 Win is a great choice. The WSSM provides a bit less drop and bit more punch, but ammo, brass etc are all going to cost much more then the 243. Plus, you have to buy a Browning or Winchester if you want that caliber (not a jab, just saying your rifle selection is quite limited with the 243 WSSM). Ammo availability is a key factor. Every shop in the country that carries ammo will have some. I guess I am not saying anything that has not been said, just affirming the other comments and letting you know I just went through this and where I ended up. Zeroed at 200, the 55gr Win Silver Ballistic Tip has a 4" drop at 300 yards. The 70 grain bullet drop is respectable at ~5". Plenty of energy for deer. Recoil is decent. And flat shooting for those 300 yard targets.

I ended up getting her the Tikka T3 stainless Lite. I absolutely love it and so does she. The action is silky smooth. Tikka promises 1 MOA. She placed sub-MOA groups with 55gr Nosler Ballistic tips and H414 and Varget. Bi-pod and shoulder. I am sure the groups would have been even tighter in a secured rifle rest. 70 grain Sierra Blitzkings did very well too. Has a Zeiss Conquest 3.5-14x44 on it.

Horitexan,

Welcome to the forum! When I first saw your question, my first thought was .223 or .22-250, but after seeing that you mentioned deer and hogs, I wouldn't recommend anything lighter than the .243. IMHO.

A .243 or .25/06 would always be a good choice. You won't find too many WSSM fans around here. I think that's mainly because not many people have tried them. I do a lot of varmint hunting, so I really like my .223's and my .22-250, but when the ranges might stretch beyond 300 yards, or the wind picks up, I'll reach for my .243 WSSM every time.

I have a Winchester M70 Coyote in .243 WSSM. It's one of my favorite rifles, and one of the most accurate. It shoots like a laser beam too. In fact, it's consistently more accurate than Kimber 84M Varmint in .22-250, which is a fine rifle in it's own right. I think a .243 WSSM would probably serve your purposes very well.

I haven't tried a .25 WSSM, but it would probably give you a few more options if you were looking more for game like deer or hogs. This would be particularly true if you hand load.

If you did decide on a WSSM, I would also think about getting set up for handloading. Winchester, Browning, Cooper, and Olympic Arms were about the only manufacturers that I know of that invested in producing rifles in the WSSM's. With Winchester out of the picture, only having higher end rifles like Browning or Cooper won't do much for increasing the popularity of the WSSM's with the average shooter.

The price you mentioned for the Winchester .243 WSSM at WalyWorld sounds very reasonable for any Winchester today. I don't know much, however, about Winchester's lower price synthetic stock models. Don't expect H S Precision quality on one of those. You would have something that's a little bit different, if not being part of the herd appeals to you.

If you'd like to see what WSSM owners think about their rifles, check out the WSSM Zone at http://www.wssmzone.com/forum/default.asp

The WSSM Zone also has a section on ammo, reloading, etc. You might want to take a look at that too. Check out the various links while you're at it, along with the info on the other calibers. http://wssmzone.com/main/default.aspx?c=wssm257&n=cartridges

Thanks for your comments Gunslinger - I did not know that Cooper and Olympic made production rifles in 243 WSSM - that may open it up a bit more. I will only post this and leave it to the original thread to continue, but you mentioned "with Winchester being out of the way". Interestingly, I tried to get an 1894 a while back, appears Winchester does not make them anymore. Care to comment on what Winchester is offering or not offering? I am interested, and it relates to this thread. I could not agree more with your handloading comments.

Thanks for the links too.

Best,

Their US plant closed. No more model 70's, 94's or their 1300 shotguns. The only high powered rifle they offer is the 1885 high wall, and low wall single shot rifles which I believe are built in Japan. If you want a deer gun, you will have to find someone who might just have one left, or buy a used one at a rediculious price. If you want to stay about $500, better forget the Cooper and Olympic rifles. The Savages and Remingtons out shoot the Cooper from what I have seen out of them. They might be fancy, but don't shoot worth what you are paying for. The cheapest .22 that Cooper offers lists at about $1300. The one offered in the .308 family lists for about $1400 for the classic.

I hunt in North Texas, our whitetail and hogs are about the same size as yours, and I'll never pass a shot at a coyote during, before, or after deer season.
During season, I usually have my 7mm-08 with me all the time, by late season ( doe hunts) and into Jan-Feb. I'm carrying my 243, and late spring and summer, I'm down to the 22-250.
The 7mm-08 with either the 120 grain or the 140 is a great little round for deer I prefer it for hogs also with my biggest pig running around 400#
It is super accurate, as well as the 243. Depending on bullet, both could qualify as a varmint round (I consider pigs as varmints), and both could be used with great success on deer.
Whether you are north or south, a big buck may run 140# field dressed in Texas
The 22-250 is the rifle I use to shoot any coyote at any range. as well as hogs.
I am not a short mag fan. to me it is just "overkill"

There are some great ones out there for your duel purposes. IN a pinch, I've used my 30-06 for varmints.

I am a traditonal sort of guy so I would go with the 7-08, 7x57, 6.5x55. 270 Win, 25-06, 257 Roberts, 243 Win or 6mm Rem. They are all so close in 300 yard bullet drop and bullet energy, it really doesn't matter much.
As far as my 22-250, I would not feel undergunned for deer/hogs at all
Flip a coin.
Good Luck

One thing everyone must remember about Texas deer. They have thin hair from it being a warm climate most of the year. The northern whitetails in the winter have a very thick hairy hide that takes a little more than a 22-250 to kill cleanly. Needs to be a round with a little more knock down power for running shots too.

Horitexan....You got some good advice from the members on this forum! I myself shoot a 25-06 as my "Go To Gun" around the place most of the time. However, you mentioned varmints and that drops things down to the .243 Winchester or 6mm Remington, a very good choice by the way.

I will also through a good word in for the .22-250 for varmints and even coyotes too! Bullets nowdays for the little screamer are much better made, especially if you want to hunt animals like coyotes with a 22-250. I use my 22-250 for P-dogs and the occasional groundhog, more stationary hunting. Once again if I am looking for stopping yotes, It's the Quarter Bore in a model 70 featherweight 25-06 with 100 grain bullet that get the nod 90% of the time. :)

I would check out the Savage line or the CZ line of rifles for what your wanting to spend. They offer quality, plus accuracy right out of the box.

... If you want to stay about $500, better forget the Cooper and Olympic rifles. The Savages and Remingtons out shoot the Cooper from what I have seen out of them. They might be fancy, but don't shoot worth what you are paying for. The cheapest .22 that Cooper offers lists at about $1300. The one offered in the .308 family lists for about $1400 for the classic.
You're right about the price on the Coopers. I've handled a few, but never shot one. Maybe someday...

Each Cooper rifle is shot for accuracy in its individual stock before it leaves the factory. Test targets are provided with each one. The 22 LR's are guaranteed to shoot 1/4" 5 shot groups at 50 yards. The 22 Hornet rifles are guaranteed to shoot 1/4" 3 shot groups at 50 yards with hand loads. All other center fires are guaranteed to shoot 1/2" 3 shot groups at 100 yards with hand loads. I doubt you'll see a guarantee like that from Savage or Remington.

Nothing against Savage or Remington, but I also doubt you'll ever see wood or metal work on one of them like you'll see on a Cooper. Go to Cooper's web site http://www.cooperfirearms.com Check out the various links too.

OK, here's your chance to buy American, and support our firearms industry that's supporting our rights in return. Especially, don't buy some Jap gun - the Jap gov't is one of the most anti-gun out there!
.

Hey! Hey!! Hey Horitexan!!!

I guess this one hits close to home so, I have to chime in a little. I have done a lot of long distance shooting and, have been very impressed with the performance of all of the .243 win, 25-06, 7mm-08 and .270 win that I have come across. My personal favorite is the .308 and, has the most variety of bullets to choose from however, for this adventure, might be a bit over the top so, here is the comment:

Look to see what is most highly available in your area and, what best fits your pocketbook too. Examine each, the .243 with fast burning powders that are hot erodes the throat quickly, sometimes in under 2000 rounds. Find things like that tid bit and know what you're getting into up front with each of them. The 25-06 and 7mm-08 and .270 Win all have a strength and a weakness, find what they are and make sure the strengths match what you want in a rifle for your purpose and the weaknesses are something you don't care about in a rifle for your purpose. I have all of these except a 7mm-08 and they shoot great...fantastic in fact so, as far as putting down a deer or hog, with a good Barnes X BT any of these will do the trick...and quick too. Shot four deer this year with the .243 Win and a 85 TSX BT Barnes and none of them went more than 25 ft from where they were shot.

Be aware a lot of the rugers in .243 did not have a fast twist and 85-95 grain bullets are about the best you can do and shoot moa with them. Also, the 25-06 in the rem version has a good twist rate and you can carry your bullet weights up to the highest available. The same is true with the Savage 110 in the .270. The Browning 7mm-08 has a twist and rifle barrel that will stabilize and shoot great distances in all size bullets too. These are just a few that I know of. Many others here can tell you which rifles work best in each caliber and what to be watching for in each caliber and/or manufacturer. Sounds to me though like you're going into it with your eyes open so, as was stated above use one of the "standard" calibers here and you will be good. The newer ones bring another set of strengths, and weaknesses, that not nearly as much is written or even known about as the others. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Be aware a lot of the rugers in .243 did not have a fast twist and 85-95 grain bullets are about the best you can do and shoot moa with them.
hey could you elaborate on that? i have someone wanting to swap me an all weather ruger in .243, it was bought new in '94 i think by him. what twist rate would you recommend for deer size bullets in a .243?
Edit: rugers site list the twist rate @ 1:9, and when compared to savages site they list their .243 @ 1:9.25
looks like ruger has a tad faster rate but did they change some time ago?

hey could you elaborate on that? i have someone wanting to swap me an all weather ruger in .243, it was bought new in '94 i think by him. what twist rate would you recommend for deer size bullets in a .243?
Edit: rugers site list the twist rate @ 1:9, and when compared to savages site they list their .243 @ 1:9.25
looks like ruger has a tad faster rate but did they change some time ago?


1-9 twist is just fine for any .243 bullet over 70 grains. Just hard to go lighter without copper build up. That is plenty fast enough. Anything from 1-8.5 twist to 1-10 is fine.

I'm just getting back into rifles after a long time bow hunting an I'm looking for a good varmint rifle that'll also work for shooting whitetail and hogs. I hunt nearly every weekend in South Texas and the ranch that my friend owns has a real problem with coyotes, not to mention a huge number of 'coons and other varmits that he'd like cut down somewhat. However, the ranch has some incredible whitetail and huge hogs and I'd like to buy a gun that would work for hunting them as well, if I wanted to.

My first instinct was to go with a .243 since that's what I grew up using (25-30 years ago) for an all-around varmint gun and I've shot a fair number of deer with it as well. When I mentioned this to soem friends, though, they suggested I take a look at some of the newer calibers that have grown popular in recent years. I started looking around and I'm, now, 'tossing around' the .25 & .243 Winchester Super Short Magnum (WSSM), the Remington 6MM, the .22-250 and the .25-06. From looking at what ballistics charts I could find, and trying to remember what I could about ballistics from my younger years, I'm leaning heavily towards the Winchester .25 WSSM. It seems to pack the most velocity and "punch" of all the calibers I've been considering while maintaining nearly as flat a trajectory as any of the others- certainly within the 300-or-so yards I would be shooting.

However, I was a little confused by the Winchester ballistics charts that contained what they called, "Trajectory, Short Range Yards" & "Trajectory, Long Range Yards." I can't, for the life of me, figure out what the difference is between "Long Range" and "Short Range" Yards. Can someone please explain the difference to me, as well as it's significance to someone planning to use the cartridge for varmints?

I found a Winchester .243 WSSM, with a synthetic stock, at Walmart for $379 which included a Burris 3-9 X 44 scope already mounted. However, I like the .25 WSSM a lot better because it offers me several choices of cartridge- varying from 65 to 120 grains- which would make it useful for a variety of purposes/animals. Also, I'd prefer a wood stock, since that's all I've ever used; but I'd be open to trying the synthetic if it made a significant price difference. I'm curious to hear what people have to say about synthetic stocks. Also, how difficult will it be for me to find a Winchester in the caliber I want if I choose to go with the Winchester? I realize that they closed their New Haven plant, but I'm hopin gthat there are still enough new rifles out there that I'd be able to find one relatively cheap, like the one I saw at Walmart. Are there still a lot of these Winchester varmint rifles floating around new?

I'm hoping that I can get some practical information, from other forum members, that will help me make this decision- which rifle/caliber would you choose for the purpose I designated. I'm hoping to keep the price of the rifle under about $500.

Thanks, in advance, for any help I receive!

Nick Anderson
Austin, TX


The 270 has a fairly flat trajectory for the varmits and it packs plenty of punch for the deer and pigs.

I am a dyed-in-the-wool .243 fan, I have a Model 70 featherweight that I load with 58 gr. v-maxes for varmints and target shooting and I use 100gr. partitions for Deer. Since Winchester has closed, I would look long and hard at the savages, they are some nice rifles, not neccessarily beauty queens but the new classic series rifles are nice and they are reliably accurate rifles