Howdy,
I've been casting for quite a few years and always used the NRA formula lube. I get some leading in some of my guns and I wonder if I would get better results with a more modern lube. What do ya'll think on the subject?

-- Slim

Howdy,
I've been casting for quite a few years and always used the NRA formula lube. I get some leading in some of my guns and I wonder if I would get better results with a more modern lube. What do ya'll think on the subject?

-- Slim


Don't know that any are really better than others, but individual guns do seem to have a preference, so experimenting won't do a bit of harm.

Have pretty much settled on liquid lube for most of my shooting if (1) the mold drops bullets at a useable diameter and don't need sizing and (2) you aren't in a rush to load right away (stuff needs a bit of time to solidify). For the ones tha need sizing, will run them though a luber-szer and apply regular lube in the "old fastioned" way.

Tend to shoot the bullets that fit the first catagory a lot more than the second.

I've found the old Lyman Alox lube the best for the temperaure extremes here in NW CO and SW MT. Had some "store bought" cast bullets with some pretty blue lube on them that when shot in cold temparatures would lead the barrel on Dad's 357 Security Six rather quickly. I didn't find this out until I went there for a visit and he handed me the gun and the cleaning kit and said "Here, you broke it now fix it." :(

I haven't used anything else but the Alox since I've been casting for the .357 and the 44 with Lyman's 358156 and 429421 moulds. That is not to say that there is something "new and improved" out there.

RJ

Pretty colored lubes are meant to appeal to the buyer, not the bullet/bore. Hard lubes are nice and clean to work with but fly off in chunks when the bullet clears the muzzle upsetting the balance making for poor accuracy. Dyes, solidifiers and fillers are not "lubricants". Alox is very good low temperature extreme pressure lubricant...too bad powder burns so hot.

I've spent years developing bullet lubes, not marketing ploys. Want to shoot softer alloys at higher velocities? Email me: markkw@earthlink.net

Slim, what kind of leading are you getting, and where? Lube is blamed for a lot of leading that is caused by other factors. Is it on the chamber mouths, forcing cone, all around the barrel, just against the lands in the groves, or just at the very end of the barrel. and does your barrel show a star of lube on the end of the barrel. The kind of Lube is actually third on the list of leading causes. Too small a bullet diameter, and too hard an alloy are more likly causes. Also find a fired bullet and see wher the lead is coming from, this can tell a lot. DM

Howdy,
I've been casting for quite a few years and always used the NRA formula lube. I get some leading in some of my guns and I wonder if I would get better results with a more modern lube. What do ya'll think on the subject?

-- Slim

Welcome to the forum Nevada. I've been casting and shooting for over 40 years now and have tried a lot of different lubes and systems and have to agree with ribbonstone. The liquid lube from Lee and tumble lubing and shooting from the mold has worked well for me.

I only size when I have to put on a gas check. Simple, quick and no leading. I shoot a hard cast 210 grain Lee tumble lube bullet in the 41 mag and a 255 grain Kieth style in the 44 mag. I just got a mold for my 8mm mag and plan to start shooting some cast in it for plinking and inexpensive practice and tumble lubing after putting on the gas check will go for it too.

Again welcome to the forum and I'll look forward to talking to you again.

Welcome to the forum Nevada. I've been casting and shooting for over 40 years now and have tried a lot of different lubes and systems and have to agree with ribbonstone. The liquid lube from Lee and tumble lubing and shooting from the mold has worked well for me.

I only size when I have to put on a gas check. Simple, quick and no leading. I shoot a hard cast 210 grain Lee tumble lube bullet in the 41 mag and a 255 grain Kieth style in the 44 mag. I just got a mold for my 8mm mag and plan to start shooting some cast in it for plinking and inexpensive practice and tumble lubing after putting on the gas check will go for it too.

Again welcome to the forum and I'll look forward to talking to you again.
Thanks for the reply, Bob.
I've heard of liquid lube but tumble lube has got me perplexed. It sounds like you do it in a case tumbler but I rather doubt it.
--Slim

Thanks for the reply, Bob.
I've heard of liquid lube but tumble lube has got me perplexed. It sounds like you do it in a case tumbler but I rather doubt it.
--Slim

No tumbler involved Nevada. Bullets in a butter tubb, squirt in some lube, shake around a little to coat evenly, and stand up on wax paper to dry for a day or more. Done!
I use it and like it.
Cheezywan

Slim, what kind of leading are you getting, and where? Lube is blamed for a lot of leading that is caused by other factors. Is it on the chamber mouths, forcing cone, all around the barrel, just against the lands in the groves, or just at the very end of the barrel. and does your barrel show a star of lube on the end of the barrel. The kind of Lube is actually third on the list of leading causes. Too small a bullet diameter, and too hard an alloy are more likly causes. Also find a fired bullet and see wher the lead is coming from, this can tell a lot. DM

Thanks for the reply Mack.
I don't have the problem so much anymore since I use different cleaning agents. My Rugers are the only ones that lead and only in the first half of the barrel. It's in the grooves and lands also against one of the groves kind of like it is snow piled against a street gutter. It cleans out easily in my .44 Mag though. Yes I do get a star of lube on the muzzle if I shoot enough. I cast with wheel weights and my sizer makes them the same as the barrel diameter. I probably need to get a sizer a step larger. I would shoot the bullets straight from the mold but they won't clear the cylinder that being too tight. I can force them through with just a hammer tap and brass punch but I don't feel right trying it. As for a fired bullet I can see the rifling grooves on them but that's all I can tell. By the way my Contender doesn't lead and the barrel slugs the same.
-- Slim

First half the barrel?..as in the breech end? And there is still some visible lube at the muzzle after a number of shots?

Then it's proably not your lube. Could be (1) sub diameter bulelts (2) a timing issue (bullets no longer diving straight down the barrel) or (3) bore roughness problem.

Yup.. First half of barrel, in the corners, like snow at the curb. Bullet is too small alowing gas cutting, and maybe just a litle too hard(not obiturating till its well into the barrel) also you could have tight chamber mouths, as they shoiuld be a hair over barrel diameter. measure you chamber mouths, and try this, lube some bullets by hand, then tap them through your cylinder mouths, then load them and try them to see if this makes a differance. (after measuring them.) DM

nothing wrong with the lube your using. Id about bet that if your getting leading with it your going to get it with another lube too.Howdy,
I've been casting for quite a few years and always used the NRA formula lube. I get some leading in some of my guns and I wonder if I would get better results with a more modern lube. What do ya'll think on the subject?

-- Slim

Bullet Caster All,
Thanks for all your help via replys and other info on the forum. I just may have solved my leading problem. I've been shooting this gun for 25 years and putting up with cleaning the lead out after every time I used it. Early this spring I was talking with a co-worker who had a gun like mine and found that he didn't experience the lead problem. This got me interested in finding a cure.

After talking with ya'll I first tried lapping the barrel and that helped quite a bit but lead still persisted. I then started cleaning with "Shooter's Choice Lead Remover" and that helped quite a bit also but the lead still accumulated though not nearly as much (mostly with soft or non gas checked bullets). The next thing I tried was a bullet sizer .001 larger than the bore and the problem got worse! I then slugged the cylinder throats which I should have done in the beginning. They were .0005 smaller than my bullets!! I then honed my cylinder throats so that they were .0005 larger than the bullets. I was still experiencing a slight bit of lead but the honed out throats made a difference. The next thing that I tried was quenching from the mould which helped also.
That's where I am right now and it may be as good as it gets which is definitely acceptable especially after what i've endured with it. For the last ten years I've nearly stopped shooting it because of the frustration. I owe you guys big time!
I still have somewhat of a problem though, I would like to be able to cast a bullet that is at least .001 larger than the bore. Neither of my .44 moulds will cast a bullet that is a full .001" larger. How do you get a mould that will cast a bullet .001" oversize?

And by the way I'm still using the NRA lube.

Thanks a bunch,
Nevada Slim

Lapp out the mold you have.

Lapp out the mold you have.

KW,
Sounds like a good solution. How does one accomplish this?
I would imagine using a hard bullet from the mould but there must be some definite procedure that you or someone has already perfected. I'm open to suggestions.

--Slim

Real simple proceedure, as long as you pay attention to what you're doing, you won't be buying a new mold.

You want a soft bullet 50/50 wheel weight pure lead works best, the slight alloying helps fill the mold out good, you need a perfect cast to lapp with or you'll mess up the mold. The softer alloy will take the lapping compound better and help prevent grooving.

You want an embedding silica compound, email me if you need some. Cast several bullets with the 50/50 alloy and when they cool, carefully inspect them and select the most perfect one that reflects the exact shape of the mold. Put the select bullet back in the mold and clamp the handles closed (remove the sprue cutter, it'll only be in the way). With the bullet clamped in the mold, carefully run a 1/16" drill bit into the center of the bullet through the sprue hole, you want to run the bit very slowly, no more than 40 rpm, and clear the flutes often. Go deep enough so that the hole extends into the bullet nose but not into the mold.

You'll need about a 2" long #6 sheetmetal screw. Easiest if you transfer the hole depth to the screw shank so you know where you're at on depth. With the bullet clamped in the mold, turn the screw till you get to your depth mark. As the screw goes in, it will expand the bullet, let the mold open up to accomodate it, just maintain enough pressure on the mold to keep the bullet from turning, drop of oil on the screw threads will ease the process. Once you have the screw all the way in, cut the head off the screw.

Remove the screwed bullet from the mold and apply the compound to the bullet. Put a thin even layer of compound on a flat hard surface, glass, polished marble, smooth finished steel/stainless ... something that will not allow the compound to embed into it. Roll the bullet in the compound making sure it gets evenly coated and pressing just hard enough to make the compound embed the bullet but not so hard that you deform the bullet. Compound only needs to be applied to the groove riding surfaces, increasing the diameter of the lube grooves is not necessary.

Without wiping the compound off the bullet, clamp the screw shank into the chuck of a variable speed drill making sure it is set to rotate clockwise. Carefully place the mold around the bullet and close it up till you feel just a tiny bit of resistance when you try to rotate it. Run the drill slowly, 60 -70 rpm and maintain a slight pressure on the mold handles so the blocks keep tight against the bullet. AL & brass molds will cut quickly, cast iron will take a little longer. When you think you took .001" out of the mold, stop and wash up the mold getting all the compound & grease off then prep it for casting. Cast a couple dozen bullets and check them for size. If you're big enough, you're done, if not repeat the lapping process. Generally, you can go .003" over barrel groove diameter on a cast bullet before you have to watch for pressure problems so if you went a little over your .001" target, don't sweat it. If you got crazy and blew the mold out by .005", load carefully with acceptable reduced charges and work back up to a normal loading watching for signs of problems.

There's a first for everyone and after you do five or siz molds, you can lapp them in your sleep. I actually prefer using my drill press as the rotational power source for lapping, gives you both hands to control the mold. Can also clamp a hand drill motor in a vise or to a bench top and have an assistant operate the drill motor while you work the mold. Biggest trick is to not run the mold off center of the lapp or you'll cut the cavity oblong and ruin it.

You can acid lapp an FE mold too. Step one is to completely wash & degrease the mold so it does not have even the slightest hint of anything other than the iron it's made from. Thin line of wax is applied to the mating surfaced of the mold far enough away from the cavity as is practical to keep any from getting into the mold cavity. I dip a toothpick into melted wax, sling off the excess drippers and lay the toothpick flat on the mating surface where you want the wax line. Do this for both sides and the bottom. All you want to see is line of wax that looks like you drew it on with a marker. Close the mold snugly so the wax line on one side presses into the vent lines on the other half. If you get any in the cavity, you have to start all over again with step one. Open the mold back up and carefully scrape both halves with a razor blade so the only wax remaining is sealing the vent lines. Close the mold again and clamp it snug but not crushingly tight in a vise or with a c-clamp. With the sprue plate out of the way, carefully fill the cavity slowly with etching acid, only in the cavity, nowhere else. The fumes are toxic so you need a well ventilated area to do this and all personal protective gear because the acid eats flesh & eyeballs easier than metal. How fast the acid will open the mold depends on how powerful it is. If you cleaned properly, the acid will eat at the entire mold evenly increasing the size at all points. Should note that junk iron will have hard/carbon spots that will not etch and thus the mold is probably going to be wrecked. Good iron is not a problem. I've done this on a couple FE molds and it does work but is a real pain in the a$$ compared to mechanical lapping but it can be done.

markkw,
Thanks for the speedy and detailed reply. Will valve grinding compound work? Will lapping work okay if the screw isn't centered perfectly and I have some wobble?
--Slim

I'll tell you another trick that has helped all the revolvers I shoot. Get a fire lapping kit from Marshall and follow the manual that comes with it. It has helped both in accuracy and getting rid of any leading on all my revolvers.

Should try to get the screw as strait as possible because you can expand the bullet to different diameters at different points so your mold can end up oblong. Measure the expanded bullet with a micrometer or caliper and if it's expanded evenly, the wobble won't be too big a deal, just keep the RPM's low.

Yes, VGC will work, use "fine" or "x-fine" grit though, don't want to get scratches in the mold.

Nevada Slim,
To me, the bore is the smaller diameter in the barrel, i.e. the diameter of the hole that gets rifled.
Your lead bullets should be .001 larger than the rifling, or the larger diameter of the barrel. And the cylinder throat diameter should equal the rifling diameter or .0005 over...

I'm sure somebody has tried this but I haven't seen anything about on any threads here, What about moly coating cast bullets, or is it not thick enough?

Squint

Well,

I guess that was a stupid idea. Nobody even wanted to say so. yuk yuk!

The bore of the barrel is made up of lands and grooves. The lands are the metal the bullet slides on as it is pushed out of the barrel by the expanding gasses. The grooves are just that; if you measured the lands and the grooves, the grooves would have the largest measurement, the lands, the smaller measurement.

Squint

Moly coating cast bullets has been tried, with variable results. Lyman Super Moly lube has made some otherwise unshootable bullets shootable, and I've got one mould here which makes bullets that persist in leading. There's a stick of Super Moly waiting.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/casting.htm

Bye
Jack

Moly coating cast bullets has been tried, with variable results. Lyman Super Moly lube has made some otherwise unshootable bullets shootable, and I've got one mould here which makes bullets that persist in leading. There's a stick of Super Moly waiting.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/casting.htm

Bye
Jack

Is it the shape of the mold or how smooth the molding surface is that is causing it to cast bullets that lead your barrel or is there some mystery element beyond we mortals that is causing this? Maybe the casting gods just don't like this particular mold. Seriously , though, I knew that moly coating jacketed bullet made a big difference. I just didn't know if it would work for cast bullets.

Squint