Hi everyone, Im new to this forum. I was just reading some of the past chats, very interesting. I particulary like the the ones about bears. Since Im a outdoor kind of person and I go hiking alot I have a question. Has onyone ever had to shoot a good sized black bear with a 45 auto? Does anyone think a FMJ 230gr. fired from a glock 21 could stop a black bear charge? What about double taps 10mm 215gr. Hardcast wfn ?

Welcome, with a 10mm you may have a chance. If you carry an 8" blade, and are handy w/ it, you have a better chance. A charging bear will run through both, you need him to stand up! Depending on size a .45acp may really piss him off. You better know what you are doing! JP

Hi everyone, Im new to this forum. I was just reading some of the past chats, very interesting. I particulary like the the ones about bears. Since Im a outdoor kind of person and I go hiking alot I have a question. Has onyone ever had to shoot a good sized black bear with a 45 auto? Does anyone think a FMJ 230gr. fired from a glock 21 could stop a black bear charge? What about double taps 10mm 215gr. Hardcast wfn ?

Guess it's been 30 or 40 years, but George Nonte would go out with various handguns...black bear with a .45acp was one of the articles. Super Vel (the original) was new back then, and that would his load of choice. An old copy of "handgun Hunting" had a chaper on that hunt.

Not recommending it...few of us have that kind of skill.

As you do have a choice, going with the more powerful round would be wise. I take it that revolvers aren't on you list...too bad, get more power for the same weight.

I've heard that a .44 Magnum revolver with a barrel 5" or shorter makes an excellent packin' pistol against bears.

Ditto the 44mag.

Iv'e got some pictures some'ere's of a bear Dad shot with a 1911 in hunting camp on Hahn creek when he was guiding in the Bob Marshall in the early 60"s. He wouldn't elaborate on the details only that it aged him some. I took it that it wasn't a pleasant experience.

A good pump 12 gauge with 00 buck works well too for the less experienced hiker/hand gunner.

RJ

Ditto the 44mag.

A good pump 12 gauge with 00 buck works well too for the less experienced hiker/hand gunner.

RJ

RJ, most people do not want to lug around a 12 ga shotgun while hiking in the woods. I carry a 4" Taurus Tracker Titainium .45 AR/ACP revolver which weighs all of 23 oz, and can use heavier bullets from Marshall for it. A 255-gr WFNPB loaded for 1,000 fps is plenty should I need it.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/images/bullets/45LC-255-WFNPB.jpg

or even this 265-gr Keith SWC, that Marshall makes is plenty to do the job.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/images/bullets/BTB-45-265K2.jpg

But until then I am using 230-gr FMJ ball ammo. I also have a real nice .44 mag SRH with a 7.5" barrel which I don't always have with me.

I live and work in prime bear country (griz & black) 4 days out of each week, and have not come across a problem bear. Actually your more likely to get struck by lightning than attacked by a bear.

BE PREPARED (http://www.udap.com/safety.htm)

If your going to carry a firearm while hiking, carry what is comfortable, not something that is cumbersome. Chances are you would leave it in your car or truck then.

RJ, most people do not want to lug around a 12 ga shotgun while hiking in the woods. I carry a 4" Taurus Tracker Titainium .45 AR/ACP revolver which weighs all of 23 oz, and can use heavier bullets from Marshall for it. A 255-gr WFNPB loaded for 1,000 fps is plenty should I need it.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/images/bullets/45LC-255-WFNPB.jpg

or even this 265-gr Keith SWC, that Marshall makes is plenty to do the job.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/images/bullets/BTB-45-265K2.jpg

But until then I am using 230-gr FMJ ball ammo. I also have a real nice .44 mag SRH with a 7.5" barrel which I don't always have with me.

I live and work in prime bear country (griz & black) 4 days out of each week, and have not come across a problem bear. Actually your more likely to get struck by lightning than attacked by a bear.

BE PREPARED (http://www.udap.com/safety.htm)

If your going to carry a firearm while hiking, carry what is comfortable, not something that is cumbersome. Chances are you would leave it in your car or truck then.

250gr at 1000fps? That sounds like standard pressure .45 Colt to me. I've heard they work "OK" for black bear, but brown bear? I've always thought they were more suited for deer and people and the like.

Of course, I wouldn't be trying to fool myself and carry a .44 Magnum revolver around with me. As much confidence I have in that cartridge, I can't shoot for shoot with it.

250gr at 1000fps? That sounds like standard pressure .45 Colt to me. I've heard they work "OK" for black bear, but brown bear? I've always thought they were more suited for deer and people and the like.

Of course, I wouldn't be trying to fool myself and carry a .44 Magnum revolver around with me. As much confidence I have in that cartridge, I can't shoot for shoot with it.

You've heard they are just "OK" for black bear? Accually I have heard they are "GREAT" for black bears from very notable people. AS you get older you get wiser, you have choose your own medicine to carry. What I carry might not be what you would choose.

The whole idea is to create a very large permanent wound chanel. The relatively slow moving .45 ACP creates a large permanent wound cavity, has sufficient penetration to reach vital organs in most large animals and remains one of the most widely used cartridges in the world. It has been recommended by some authorities as the ideal backwoods cartridge. Some have even made the argument the ideal .45 ACP load for backwoods carry is the 230 gr. FMJ vital organs, but it does not create a very large permanent wound cavity.

I really don't worry about "Brown Bears" here in Montana, we don't have any here. Griz if thats what your referancing are not called "Brown Bears" and most truth be known only weigh around 400 to 700 pounds.

Yes that load data is correct, you will find it at Load Swap here on Marshall's site. Even according to Hodgdon's Reloading manual the standard 260-gr .45 Colt cartridge loading is less in feet per second. In Load Swap there are even a 300-gr loadin at 925.5 fps in yes a .45 ACP most likely revovler because of the OAL of the load. Don't under estimate this cartridge. Hard cast bullets penetrate like you wouldn't believe.

taken from Hodgdon Web Site

260 GR. SPR GDHP COL: 1.595"

HS-6 10.7 865 fps 14,000 CUP
UNIVERSAL 8.0 813 fps 14,000 CUP
HP-38 7.1 787 fps 14,000 CUP
TITEGROUP 6.3 797 fps 12,500 CUP

Well, I'm not a hunter; I'm a soldier and a shooter. I only know what people post on forums such as these. I hear that anything less than a magnum pistol cartridge is too weak for big game.

I do however, know how great of a performer the .45 ACP is on people. Even the FMJ rounds. The 1911 is a great pistol and I plan on getting one in December.

Well, I'm not a hunter; I'm a soldier and a shooter. I only know what people post on forums such as these. I hear that anything less than a magnum pistol cartridge is too weak for big game.

I do however, know how great of a performer the .45 ACP is on people. Even the FMJ rounds. The 1911 is a great pistol and I plan on getting one in December.

Army GI

There is a new performer on the market that I believe Ruger is now making a SA for even called the .50 GI (http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/) Although that is just rumor so far, but the price will keep most of us out of the running even for a 1911 slab sides.

Yes, there are those that think because something doesn't have the words magnum on the head stamp, it won't work I know. 45 Colt doesn't have those words imprinted on the case head but its quite a hunting cartridge as well. Remember that weight is more important than fps.

A very good friend of mine shot a mature bison cow she weighed approx 900 pounds. He used his Sharps in 45-90 loaded with a 510-gr soft cast bullet over only 80.0 gr of FFg black powder. Some would think that that bullet just aint moving fast enough at 1100 fps :rolleyes: Well at approx 169 yards there was a thru and thru one shot kill, with a funnel like spray of blood on the snow behind her. The bullet was never recovered.

Most of these guys that you read about that carry the big .460, 480 and 500's moving at 1200, 1300 and beyond plus feet per second have just got magnumitus to the max and lead everyone to believe ya just got to have one of these to survive an encounter with a bear no mater if it be black or silvertip or brown.

I would rather wear something that I can defend myself with at .23 oz than something that is too heavy that I may just leave in camp or in the truck.
http://www.taurususa.com/newsreviews/images/6_001.jpg

Well, I'm not a hunter; I'm a soldier and a shooter. I only know what people post on forums such as these. I hear that anything less than a magnum pistol cartridge is too weak for big game.

I do however, know how great of a performer the .45 ACP is on people. Even the FMJ rounds. The 1911 is a great pistol and I plan on getting one in December.

Seems like you arleady made up your mind before posting..great, no problem..if you are sure you can get the job done with the .45acp, then I've no problem with your choice.

Like the old Colt just fgine, are three in the gun safe and they are good choices for several situations...this isn't one wre I'd apply a .45acp as a solutiuon, but that's my choice.

Seems like you arleady made up your mind before posting..great, no problem..if you are sure you can get the job done with the .45acp, then I've no problem with your choice.

What the he|| are you talking about? I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.

What the he|| are you talking about? I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.


OK chief...will get on those reading lessons right away.

Have heard the .44mag. is a good packing pistol but the 44mag. is out ( "can't shoot for shoot with it" ), a 250gr. .45slug at 1000fps seems more "suited for deer and people", and you plan on getting a .45acp in December (although you don't state you'd use it on bears).

I'd carry a .45acp if that's all i had....I'd not buy one for this use or pick it if there were other choices more suited to the task, but wouldn't change plans on a camping trip if all I had was a .45acp.

Dang guys don't start fueding.... :D

I did get an e-mail back from Jeff Quinn who's opinion I value quite highly. Not only because he is a gun owner, shooter and reloader, but a well rounded writer as well. I like fair and ballanced reporting.

Taurus Tracker 455 TI 4"

Q - Jeff I really enjoyed your write up on the Tracker... too bad Taurus is not making this one any longer. Now I got to find a 6" to go with my un-ported 4"

Of course several on some forum boards have expressed a real lack of confidence in the .45 ACP even hand-loaded with a proper .452 dia hard cast bullet of 255-gr or a Keith style SWC of 265-gr at 1,000 or so FPS "AA-5 7.5 gr" obtained 1,000 fps in Marshall Stantons 1911 with his 255-gr WNFP bullet. I with my Tracker would because of cylinder gap to forcing cone obtain some where around 985 or so fps.

Defense against bears? I say yes, while others say NO WAY!

What are your thoughts on this one.


A - The .45 ACP is plenty, especially with that load.

Jeff

Jerff Quinn's Gun Blast Artical on the Taurus .45 ACP Tracker (http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus_Tracker.htm)

Now I say, we can believe guy's who don't live and work in the woods IE bear country or we can make our decisions based on what each of us believes as fact on the matter. I personally would bet my life on my choice knowing what a .452 dia hard cast bullet of 255 or 265-gr will do at the fps that I am using.

Army GI have ya thought about a .41 magnum revolver or a 10mm?

Man I love this pic.....

http://www.castperformance.com/site_images/26-50/036/Cast/images/bear.jpg

Do something exciting... paintball a bear then run like heck :D

Have heard the .44mag. is a good packing pistol but the 44mag. is out ( "can't shoot for shoot with it" ),

Nope, the .44 Mag or .45 Colt +P (which is what I got) is way too much pistol for me to handle. I'm not shamed to admit that part.

a 250gr. .45slug at 1000fps seems more "suited for deer and people",

I'm just going by what people say here on these very forums. I don't get any chances to shoot bears so I just take what the "big boomer" crowd says.

and you plan on getting a .45acp in December

I've wanted one for years. That had nothing to do with me wanting to hunt. I'm starting up a military firearm collection (working on my 3rd one right now).

(although you don't state you'd use it on bears)

That's the key phrase right there;).

I'd carry a .45acp if that's all i had....I'd not buy one for this use or pick it if there were other choices more suited to the task, but wouldn't change plans on a camping trip if all I had was a .45acp.

Well, in light of John E's new post, it appears that someone respected in gun circles thinks the .45 Auto is an adequate cartridge. But I wouldn't be going into bear country anytime soon, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Army GI have ya thought about a .41 magnum revolver or a 10mm?




I agree. If Mr Quinn says its good enough, then I'll take his word for it. .45 ACP is a cartridge I can control pretty well. Anything that recoils more than that is pretty much beyond my limit for the ability to place follow up shots in rapid sucession.

I have to say I'm kinda skeptical of a 45 ACP pushing a 255 grn bullet at 1000 fps, seems like a pretty hot load to me...even Buffalo Bore's 230 grn ammo is rated at 950 fps and that's +P ammo...

Anyway, personally I wouldn't pick a 45 ACP as first choice for bear protection, but if it was all you had than I suppose it's better than nothing. This is apples to oranges but I've shot quite a few deer with a 40 S & W with 180 grn loads at about 1000 fps and I can't remember one ever being a clean kill even though most were head shots. I even had two get up and run after being shot and these were deer already hit by cars. My point is if deer don't go quitely, what's a much tougher, bigger and animal that can kill you going to do if you don't put it down quick enough? My dad used to work with a guy who was mauled by a black bear in Canada after he shot at it with a rifle and broke his jaw. That saved his life as when it attacked him, it kept trying to bite but couldn't, it just kept batting him around.

Like I said if it's what you got than get some quality ammo (like buffalo bore) and practice. If you're looking to get something specifically for that purpose, I think I'd lean to something with a little more punch, as said something with the word "magnum" in it. IMO, even a 357 mag would be a better choice but preferrably a 41 or 44 mag.

I agree w/ M1. I shot a small black bear once w/ a 45-70 and pulled the shot a bit. That bear went down and came back up full of spunk.

I was glad to be in the tree stand at that point.

I've no doubt some .45acp revovler shooters will push a 250gr. to 1000fps...have doubts they should be in some of the older guns. But I guess the point is, the same revolvers (same size and weight) are also available in rounds more suited for the task at hand.

Kind of a cycle with the .45acp semi-auto, every so often someone makes a .45 Super or a wildcat on the .45case (I liked the .41 avenger). Never does seem to catch on big-time...and I'll agree that popularity isn't the best measure of a round's real-world usefullness (or the .41mag., 38super, and a handful of others would be more popular).

Have noticed more bear attack press in the last year, in places like Tenn. where it didn't cross my mind as a serious threat. Suspect that years of tourist feeding the bears (and how that makes people less of a threat and links them to food) iis a root casue here.

Just to clear things up:

When I mention 250gr rounds at 960-1000fps, I mean .45 Colt.

Hi everyone, Im new to this forum. I was just reading some of the past chats, very interesting. I particulary like the the ones about bears. Since Im a outdoor kind of person and I go hiking alot I have a question. Has onyone ever had to shoot a good sized black bear with a 45 auto? Does anyone think a FMJ 230gr. fired from a glock 21 could stop a black bear charge? What about double taps 10mm 215gr. Hardcast wfn ?

Beartooth makes a 200 gr 10mm bullet with a .31" meplat, while the 41 mag bullets have a .32 meplat. If out of a Colt Delta Elite or Glock with a Barstow barrel you have a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps and a striking velocity of 1000 fps, the permanent wound channel through brother bear is 0.775". So yes if you punch a clip full of 3/4 holes THROUGH a black bear it will ruin his day.

Beats swearing, and trying to bludgeon one to death with a tennis shoe, I suppose.

I've loaded 255gr. SWCs at about 900fps in the .45 ACP. Look at the Speer manual for data - they list data for their jacketed 260gr. bullet.

Whether that will settle Mr. Bear's hash, I will leave for others to debate. Personally..... I'd worry less about follow-up shots, and more about putting the first one where it counted.

If you can handle a GI 1911 for a magazine full, I'd wager you could handle a .44 mag, should the need arise.

Good luck and I hope you don't have to find out the hard way.

Just to clear things up:

When I mention 250gr rounds at 960-1000fps, I mean .45 Colt.

I would think a 280 gr Beartooth WFN or 270 gr Penn Thunderhead in 45LC at 900-1000 fps should work just fine. For a trail gun it should solve 2 or 4 legged problems. At least up to and including black bears.

I have to say I'm kinda skeptical of a 45 ACP pushing a 255 grn bullet at 1000 fps, seems like a pretty hot load to me...even Buffalo Bore's 230 grn ammo is rated at 950 fps and that's +P ammo... .


Just an FYI on the 255-gr bullet being clocked at 1,000 fps it was Marshall Stanton the owner of Beartooth Bullets that chrono'd the load. I have no doubt of his findings. If you doubt his findings, call him his number is available here on the site. Also .45 Super loadings from Buffalo Bore Ammo 230 gr. FMJFN @ 1100 fps (618 ft. lbs.)

All a .45 Super is, is a .45 ACP cartridge that is stronger and can be fired in both semi-auto and revolvers easily enough.

It is funny how those who would recomend the .45 Colt i.e Long Colt by others.. same cartridge would not recomend the same bullet weight being shot in .45 ACP (revolver) at the same feet per second. It amazes me how people think sometimes.

I'll still stick with the answer I got from Marshall Stanton and Jeff Quinn.

If you can handle a GI 1911 for a magazine full, I'd wager you could handle a .44 mag, should the need arise.

I guess it all has to come down to ergonomics. When I fired that 300grainer 45LC +P, it was in a Ruger (old) vaquero. I've heard the Single Action Army is not the best grip style for magnum powered loads.

I really wish Ruger still made their Ruger Redhawk in .45 Colt, so I cold the same +P loads I do from my Winchester out of it. But too bad they dropped it.

Good luck and I hope you don't have to find out the hard way.
Yeah, me either.

I guess it all has to come down to ergonomics. When I fired that 300grainer 45LC +P, it was in a Ruger (old) vaquero. I've heard the Single Action Army is not the best grip style for magnum powered loads.

I really wish Ruger still made their Ruger Redhawk in .45 Colt, so I cold the same +P loads I do from my Winchester out of it. But too bad they dropped it.


Yeah, me either.

Here's one Redhawk .45 Colt at Guns America (http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976691214.htm) there are quite a few more in .44 mag but only the one in .45 Colt.

Oh, I knew about those. I was actually going to get the one with a 7" barrel from gunbroker.com. I wanted one with a blued finish though.

But I guess beggers can't be choosers.

Just an FYI on the 255-gr bullet being clocked at 1,000 fps it was Marshall Stanton the owner of Beartooth Bullets that chrono'd the load. I have no doubt of his findings. If you doubt his findings, call him his number is available here on the site. Also .45 Super loadings from Buffalo Bore Ammo 230 gr. FMJFN @ 1100 fps (618 ft. lbs.)

All a .45 Super is, is a .45 ACP cartridge that is stronger and can be fired in both semi-auto and revolvers easily enough.

It is funny how those who would recomend the .45 Colt i.e Long Colt by others.. same cartridge would not recomend the same bullet weight being shot in .45 ACP (revolver) at the same feet per second. It amazes me how people think sometimes.

I'll still stick with the answer I got from Marshall Stanton and Jeff Quinn.


I can believe that number, but shooting that load from a standard 45 auto has to be brutal. Would the stock recoil spring be adequate for a heavy load like that? I'm dubious a stock 45 auto is up to handling loads like that.

This whole discussion is getting a little silly...trying to justify the 45 acp for a task that it is clearly marginal for. Heck..I remember back in the 60's some Air Force officer killed a black bear in Glacier Park that had chewed up a camper. He killed it w/ his issue 38, but who's recommending a 38 special for bear country defense?

HECK NO

.45 Super is only intended for purpose made 1911s or 1911s that have been so heavily modified, you could have just bought a .44 Magnum.

Read this:
http://www.acecustom45s.com/45super.htm
http://www.texas-ammo.com/

-edit-

Wow. It looks like .45 Super is such a wildcat cartridge, nobody wants to make them anymore.

Well, at least buffalobore still makes them.

Just an FYI on the 255-gr bullet being clocked at 1,000 fps it was Marshall Stanton the owner of Beartooth Bullets that chrono'd the load. I have no doubt of his findings. If you doubt his findings, call him his number is available here on the site. Also .45 Super loadings from Buffalo Bore Ammo 230 gr. FMJFN @ 1100 fps (618 ft. lbs.)

All a .45 Super is, is a .45 ACP cartridge that is stronger and can be fired in both semi-auto and revolvers easily enough.

It is funny how those who would recomend the .45 Colt i.e Long Colt by others.. same cartridge would not recomend the same bullet weight being shot in .45 ACP (revolver) at the same feet per second. It amazes me how people think sometimes.

I'll still stick with the answer I got from Marshall Stanton and Jeff Quinn.

If Marshall got those results then I have no doubts to their validity. Where did you get the info that Marshall got those results? Is there a link to his findings as I'm interesting in seeing what his load is.

As Army GI said, you can't use the 45 Super ammo in a 45 ACP unless you've had the conversion due to the increased pressure. I'll stick to what I said regarding the 45 ACP for black bears. Around here black bears growing to 500+ lbs aren't uncommon. That's enough for me to want a little more "insurance".

If Marshall got those results then I have no doubts to their validity. Where did you get the info that Marshall got those results? Is there a link to his findings as I'm interesting in seeing what his load is.

As Army GI said, you can't use the 45 Super ammo in a 45 ACP unless you've had the conversion due to the increased pressure. I'll stick to what I said regarding the 45 ACP for black bears. Around here black bears growing to 500+ lbs aren't uncommon. That's enough for me to want a little more "insurance".

Just stick with tried and true. If you don't want to carry a rifle (which you should), and all you have is a pistol on your belt, I would feel a whole lot more comfortable shooting a bear with a .44 Magnum or a .454 Cascull.

As sucessful as some of you guys are with .45 Colt +P, I'll never feel comfortable firing a round thats loaded on the verge of exploding when it was only meant as a self defense cartridge against humans in the first place.

I also wouldn't have too much of a problem shooting deer with it (under 50 yards) but the trajectory is so bad at 1000 yards I would just be using a rifle.

If Marshall got those results then I have no doubts to their validity. Where did you get the info that Marshall got those results? Is there a link to his findings as I'm interesting in seeing what his load is.

Marshall Stanton can be reached at
1-888-4 BEARTOOTH
208.437.1865
9 A.M. through 6 P.M., Monday through Friday

Look up load data under the LOAD SWAP for the .45 ACP You'll find loads there for:

45 ACP
175 grain bullets ( 1 loads)
185 grain bullets ( 15 loads)
200 grain bullets ( 19 loads)
225 grain bullets ( 1 loads)
230 grain bullets ( 20 loads)
250 grain bullets ( 6 loads)
255 grain bullets ( 1 loads)
300 grain bullets ( 1 loads)

But the 255-gr loading that I spoke of, was discussed over the phone with Marshall Stanton himself. Call him, he's a great guy to talk with.

As Army GI said, you can't use the 45 Super ammo in a 45 ACP unless you've had the conversion due to the increased pressure. I'll stick to what I said regarding the 45 ACP for black bears. Around here black bears growing to 500+ lbs aren't uncommon. That's enough for me to want a little more "insurance".

In a standard 1911 style, Glock, etc, you may need to get a conversion done for .45 Super, but in a revolver I doubt it. My revolver is NEW. But as you say you wouldn't trust the loading yourself. I say then don't use it, it just that simple. You have a choice to use what you prefer.... correct?

Does anyone have the web site to marshall were I can get those 265/255 gr. 45 auto bullets?
THANKS

Does anyone have the web site to marshall were I can get those 265/255 gr. 45 auto bullets?
THANKS

Its a tab at the top right of your screen here. Here is the link. http://www.beartoothbullets.com/

From what I have seen of Black Bears, you can put them down with everything from .357 magnum to 44 mag to 45 Colt and larger. The key to each of these was a shot to the spine or brain. The one brain hit was with a 629 loaded with factory 240 grain jacketed ammo. The sixth shot hit and shattered the skull, exited the back of the lower jaw after passing through the brain. This wasn't a large black bear but one that weighed 180 pounds. It had been hit twice by a 7mm mag, once by a 308 and then Will found it in the brush when it charged him. His first 5 shots were all marginal hits, then the sixth shot killed the bear.

He "upgraded" to a SRH in .454 Casull. That takes him too much longer to get off a second shot in my opinion.

The .45 acp loaded appropriately with a good hardcast bullet or a bonded bullet should work fine IF you can hit the bear in the brain or spinal cord.

Does anyone have the web site to marshall were I can get those 265/255 gr. 45 auto bullets?
THANKS

As stated use this Bullet Sellection Link (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm)

You can find those bullets under the 45 LC .454 Casull link on the page and select bullets that are of .452 dia. There are even some that are of .451 dia but using a cast bullet over dia is recomended.

Good luck, and have fun and stay safe.

You've heard they are just "OK" for black bear? Accually I have heard they are "GREAT" for black bears from very notable people. AS you get older you get wiser, you have choose your own medicine to carry. What I carry might not be what you would choose.

The whole idea is to create a very large permanent wound chanel. The relatively slow moving .45 ACP creates a large permanent wound cavity, has sufficient penetration to reach vital organs in most large animals and remains one of the most widely used cartridges in the world. It has been recommended by some authorities as the ideal backwoods cartridge. Some have even made the argument the ideal .45 ACP load for backwoods carry is the 230 gr. FMJ vital organs, but it does not create a very large permanent wound cavity.

I really don't worry about "Brown Bears" here in Montana, we don't have any here. Griz if thats what your referancing are not called "Brown Bears" and most truth be known only weigh around 400 to 700 pounds.

Yes that load data is correct, you will find it at Load Swap here on Marshall's site. Even according to Hodgdon's Reloading manual the standard 260-gr .45 Colt cartridge loading is less in feet per second. In Load Swap there are even a 300-gr loadin at 925.5 fps in yes a .45 ACP most likely revovler because of the OAL of the load. Don't under estimate this cartridge. Hard cast bullets penetrate like you wouldn't believe. FYI the Brown Bear of AK is a griz genus Ursus and species horribilus.I prefer a 45 long colt since it develops less pressure and recoil than a 44 mag http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_Bisley45.htm and it's a lot more comfortable to shoot.I installed Hogue Grips on all of my Blackhawks fits my hand better and is more comfortable.

FYI the Brown Bear of AK is a griz genus Ursus and species horribilus.

The are actually called Ursus arctos horribilis (http://www.fws.gov/endangered/i/A4I.html) here in Montana. Most people like yourself group ALL grizzly bears into one group, and they are actually sub-groups or differing species of each other like cousins.

The Kodiak aka Alaskan Brown Bear is Ursus arctos (http://www.adfg.state.ak.us/pubs/notebook/biggame/brnbear.php)

But if you do some studying you'll find they are differant species all together.

Take a look at these Alaskan Brown Bears (http://www.alaskatrophyadventures.com/grizzly_bear_hunting.htm) Again we do not have them this HUGE here in Montana, and again they have been tagged with the name "Grizzly Bear" by the hunting guide service. Bears like these get to be over 1,700 pounds as well :rolleyes: But in Alaska they do... carry a fricken howizter.

FYI the Brown Bear of AK is a griz genus Ursus and species horribilus.
Actually the Brown Bear is Ursus Arctos middendorfi (well, depending on which biologist you are talking to on any given day). Grizzly is Ursus Arctos horribilus.

The middendorfi association, originally, was only credited to the bears from Kodiak Island, but since has been used to classify the bears we now call "Brown Bears" or often refered to as Coastal Grizzlies.

At least that is my understanding...

The Brown Bears in Russia share the Ursus Arctos designation but have a different subspecies name. Siberi something or other I think.????

Why not just use the off-the-shelf Buffalo Bore loading?

I don't think that + or - 50fps, or 10 or 20 grains of bullet weight, is going to make much difference one way or the other.

Not sure what you mean by the .45 Colt loads on 'the verge of exploding,' but handloaders have been running 30,000CUP loads through Rugers for many years (not the new small frame vaqueros, though). I've done it myself without any problems.

For handling heavy recoil, I personally like the Bisley grip frame on a single action. But everyone has to find out what works for them.

Marshall Stanton can be reached at
1-888-4 BEARTOOTH
208.437.1865
9 A.M. through 6 P.M., Monday through Friday

Look up load data under the LOAD SWAP for the .45 ACP You'll find loads there for:

45 ACP
175 grain bullets ( 1 loads)
185 grain bullets ( 15 loads)
200 grain bullets ( 19 loads)
225 grain bullets ( 1 loads)
230 grain bullets ( 20 loads)
250 grain bullets ( 6 loads)
255 grain bullets ( 1 loads)
300 grain bullets ( 1 loads)

But the 255-gr loading that I spoke of, was discussed over the phone with Marshall Stanton himself. Call him, he's a great guy to talk with.

In a standard 1911 style, Glock, etc, you may need to get a conversion done for .45 Super, but in a revolver I doubt it. My revolver is NEW. But as you say you wouldn't trust the loading yourself. I say then don't use it, it just that simple. You have a choice to use what you prefer.... correct?

Yup, that load isn't in load swap, the 255 load is with PB and 893 fps and that advices to use a heavy recoil spring the 1911's. Just curious to the load, I don't have a 45 but one day considering it for people protection for a CCW. I don't know about using one in a revolver either as I know they're stronger but if they were designed for the 45 ACP at their operating pressures, I'm not sure how they'd handle the 45 Super.

Actually the Brown Bear is Ursus Arctos middendorfi (well, depending on which biologist you are talking to on any given day). Grizzly is Ursus Arctos horribilus.

The middendorfi association, originally, was only credited to the bears from Kodiak Island, but since has been used to classify the bears we now call "Brown Bears" or often refered to as Coastal Grizzlies.

At least that is my understanding...

The Brown Bears in Russia share the Ursus Arctos designation but have a different subspecies name. Siberi something or other I think.????

The are actually called Ursus arctos horribilis here in Montana. Most people like yourself group ALL grizzly bears into one group, and they are actually sub-groups or differing species of each other like cousins.

The Kodiak aka Alaskan Brown Bear is Ursus arctos

But if you do some studying you'll find they are differant species all together.

To clear up the brown bear taxonomy, when I was in college working on my biology degree, one of the classes I had I researched the evolution of bears. At that time (around '94) the brown bears were classified as three sub species; the Kodiak Bear, Ursus arctos middendorfi, the Grizzly Bear, Ursus arctos horribilus and the Brown Bear, Ursus arctos arctos. When the advancement of DNA analysis came about, a study of the genome of brown bears showed that genetically they are homogeneous (the same) and that their genetic phylogeography (study of the processes controlling the geographic distributions of lineages) does not correspond to their traditional taxonomy (ie the classification of them as three sub species).

In a nutshell, they are all one and the same, regardless of the size variation. I suppose one way to look at it is look at the variation in people and we are all one species, Homo sapiens. As a side note, polar bears evolved from the brown bear line roughly 100,000 years ago and the earliest remains were found in the Kew in London. As of yet, browns and polars do not show biological speciation and can still interbreed and produce fertile offspring. This was shown recently when that hunter I believe in Canada shot a hybrid between the two.

M1G,
Great post! Thanks very much for the information. I think anyone that has been around both grizzlies and brownies can tell, they very much appear to be the same animal, at least in looks. Disposition and size can vary...

A brown bear does appear to be an oversized grizzly, at least to me.

M1G, great post. Ya beat me to it! :D
They may all be the same, but the ones I have seen, well, the fish feeding coastal bears give me the willies. Tooooooo freaking big. Some of those bears have butts the size of the back of a Volkswagen Bus! I do keep thinking that they would make the best rug to greet my bare feet first thing on a winter morning.

I would love to go on a brown bear hunt on any of the variations. I think that my Desert Eagle in 50AE would work on one, but I would probably take a rifle in 450 Marlin or something of the like as the primary weapon. If whatever im hunting has the capabilities to seriously hurt and/or eat me, youd better believe im going to poke the biggest hole in one that I can thats going to go all the way through. Did anybody see that movie GrizzlyMan? What a fruit cake. I cant believe he lasted as long as he did. No mace, no gun, no nothing to protect himself. I believe what ended up happening (as was stated in the movie) was that he spent most of his time there during the regular feeding/breeding months with them. So the bears that were out were young, healthy, well fed individuals that were more or less satisfied with their diets. That faithful last trip out he went later in the year when those good bears went to the interior to hibernate and the bears that were pushed in due to dominance came out to try and get whatever food they could late in the season before hibernating. So basically they were all half starved, old mean bears looking to hurry up and cram for the big sleep. Him and his girlfriend being so close to them and sleeping right in their backyard made easy pickings. Its a **** shame that it happend, but the behavior was predictable.

I'm too old to not say what I really think. It wasn't a **** shame. It was overdue and hopefully others that are uneducated have now gotten educated about the reality of bears.

What was a shame was that the poor girl's parent's let her go up there with that idiot.

If we are talking using a 1911 for bears than I go with the 1911 loaded with .45-08 cartridges. I get 1350 fps out of my 5" Norinco using 20lb recoil springs and a 200 gr LSWC hardcast. Plenty for Black Bears and as good as any handgun for Grizzlies, remember we are into self defense mode not hunting. Shotgun is obviously better but carrying one or having one handy when you really need it is often not the case. The LSWC is much better than FMJ RN bullets due to it's sharp shoulders and flat meplat.

Up here around Terrace we have Black bears coming out of our ears. For the most part they are timid and take off as soon as they hear you coming but every once in awhile one hasn't read the part where they are timid. IMHP they are worse than Grizzlies in that if they do attack they are looking at you for lunch where a Grizzlie genreally regards you as a threat and if you are lucky and survive that initial attack he may just leave you alone once he sees you no longer as a threat.

RCMP shot four just last week here in town. Once they get used to humans they present a real problem and are put down. For tourists travelling through Banff/Jasper DO NOT FEED THE BEARS by doing so you may well be signing their death warrant.

Take Care

Bob

To clear up the brown bear taxonomy, when I was in college working on my biology degree, one of the classes I had I researched the evolution of bears. At that time (around '94) the brown bears were classified as three sub species; the Kodiak Bear, Ursus arctos middendorfi, the Grizzly Bear, Ursus arctos horribilus and the Brown Bear, Ursus arctos arctos. When the advancement of DNA analysis came about, a study of the genome of brown bears showed that genetically they are homogeneous (the same) and that their genetic phylogeography (study of the processes controlling the geographic distributions of lineages) does not correspond to their traditional taxonomy (ie the classification of them as three sub species).

In a nutshell, they are all one and the same, regardless of the size variation. I suppose one way to look at it is look at the variation in people and we are all one species, Homo sapiens. As a side note, polar bears evolved from the brown bear line roughly 100,000 years ago and the earliest remains were found in the Kew in London. As of yet, browns and polars do not show biological speciation and can still interbreed and produce fertile offspring. This was shown recently when that hunter I believe in Canada shot a hybrid between the two.

M1-Garand.....In 1978 I was in Yellowstone that summer and had the chance to speak to a gentleman, who has spent years trying to convince the world, that grizzly and big brown bears, were in fact one in the same. Such dedication to his profession almost cost him his life that summer.

He was attacked, half buried and put on the menue by one bad grizzly bear. Today he still wears the results from that attack, the black eyepatch covers the eye he lost that day, along with many scars on his body.

I too have been down that path of confronting grizzly and black bears in the wild. I can tell others this, that NO WAY would I ever attempt to go looking for bears (especially grizz) with any of my 1911's firing the 45 acp round. I do carry a Smith & Wesson 44 magnum but still don't relish meeting up with any big grizzly in the wild.

The 1911 45 acp, as most of us older hunters have learned, was designed for killing fellow human beings, in the trench war of world war 1. It doesn't take much to accomplish that task. However, bears are a horse of a different color! I was once told by a legend of a bear guide and hunter, that an angry 200 pound grizzly bear, is far more dangerous than 3 NFL lineman with base ball bats.

Now having proper caliber weapon in hand, (44 mag, .480 Ruger, .454 Casulls, 500 Smith & Wesson etc) is only the half of solving the equation at hand. One still as has to be able to withstand the strees and remain completely composed, while they take aim and put that first shot where it belongs. In most cases, that is ALL your going to get on a charging bear, be it black or grizzly. My advice is to FORGETABOUT the pistol packing for bears and carry a shotgun with triple OOO BUCK or a 35-Whelen, .338 magnum etc. Save your pistol for shooting game other than bears in the wild!

In 30 years of hiking and camping in prime black bear territory, I have encountered a bear up close exactly once out "in the wild" -- and all I saw of that one was its hind-end as it got the heck outta Dodge. I've seen many. many of them in large campgrounds where trash was plentiful, and they were all interested in the garbage, and completely uninterested in the people.

The #1 weapon to use in bear country is your head. Keep food and trash away from your camp. If you're hiking and think a bear may be around, make noise so he hears you coming. Do those two things and the odds are great that you'll never see one.

If youre minding your P's and Q's and still find yourself needing to shoot a bear in self defense, rest assured it will be ultra-fast and close, and shooting is going to be a last-ditch, desperate attempt at survival. I'd rather have a .44 mag than a .45 ACP, but I'd use the .45 if that's what I had. Better would be not to need it in the first place.

Your points are valid but you should remember we are talking about a defensive situation not a hunting one. When fishing up here I do have at hand most of the time a Mossberg shotgun loaded with buckshot and slugs. Unfortunately, often it is not at hand and why I carry a 1911 loaded with the rounds I do. At 1350 fps my 200 gr LSWC will at close range do a world of hurt on a black bear and with a great deal of luck stop a Grizzly. I can fire six aimed shots off with my auto in the half the time I can with an equivalent loaded revolver and as we both know time is of the essence. Guys who carry heavy six inch or longer barreled hand cannons are just kidding themselves. I doubt many would get the gun drawn and one round off in the time it takes for a bear to close from 25 yards. For me my handgun is my last resort of defense, my brain is my first defense.

Take Care

Bob

The .45ACP most certainly will work for self defense. Some years back a hunting partner and I were Bear hunting; this guy had spilled some of the attractor scent on his pants and wore them in to the tent along with a sank, that he fell asleep without eating. I didn't know anything about either till about two in the morning. At that time with much fanfair, the tent had a new doorway installed and got verry crowed in a hurry. :eek:

I carry, a Springer with a 20# Wolf spring in a cross draw holster for potential social situations in our neck of the woods. **** good thing too! It was loaded with Buff Bores 230gr. +P's. The only light was from a setting moon. The Bear was getting a little too well aquinted with my pal, who was (understandably) pretty excited himself. He was tharashing around and screaming like a banshee! Our visitor was getting pretty loud a well trying to tell this good smelling and potentially tasty lunch to hold still. So without more ado I let loose with the .45 at about one foot to two feet depending on which shot was leaving the barrel at the moment,

Well at some point before the clip was empty the Bear expired and rolled over on me. I'm sure glad he only weighed about 250 pounds or so. The guy responsible for all the excitement wasn't any help geting that smelly furball of me at all, He wasn't too bad off though. He only got bit once and only one paws worth of deep claw marks, bleeding pretty good,so were self cleaning, but to make sure I poured a little white rum in thw wound and he commenced to scteaming some more, so I stopped and applied some compression bandages. I packed him off to the Hospital in Two Harbors.

By the time I got back to camp, it was comming on to daylight. So I went to skinning a butchering. One round broke his left sholder and punched a hole in his lung, Another made a real mess of his liver and went out the other side, another round went through his neck, but didn;t do much damage ,but the round that stopped him broke his neck about four inches behind his head. On the way home I told my partner that he was the one going to by the tent for the next hunt. He paid for the tent, but never went hunting again as far as I know. :rolleyes:

Dan

Dan, there are some people that just shouldn't be in the woods. Glad you guys came out relatively unscathed.

Some folks find hunting pretty unbearable.

Hi everyone, Im new to this forum. I was just reading some of the past chats, very interesting. I particulary like the the ones about bears. Since Im a outdoor kind of person and I go hiking alot I have a question. Has onyone ever had to shoot a good sized black bear with a 45 auto? Does anyone think a FMJ 230gr. fired from a glock 21 could stop a black bear charge? What about double taps 10mm 215gr. Hardcast wfn ?

A pistol certainly wouldn't be my first choice. If a pistol was all I had, I's get a 41 or 44 mag with hardcast lead loaded up.

Under the circumstanses it would have been a might hard to load and shoot my .338 in that tent at that time. I hadn't planned on blazing away at a bear with the .45, but it was handy at the time. That said, given a little better situation, I have no doubts that that same combination of ammo and shooter would be effective for SD with bears, but I wouldn't use one to pick on a bear out of choice (hunting).
Dan

Under the circumstanses it would have been a might hard to load and shoot my .338 in that tent at that time. I hadn't planned on blazing away at a bear with the .45, but it was handy at the time. That said, given a little better situation, I have no doubts that that same combination of ammo and shooter would be effective for SD with bears, but I wouldn't use one to pick on a bear out of choice (hunting).
Dan


Several years ago a man from Kalispel Montana was going about his duties, that of releasing a bore grizzly from atop a cage inside a pickup truck bed. Well, the driver was involved in listening to music instead of paying attention to commands of the Forest Ranger.

Upon pulling up the cage door and as soon as the bears front feet hit the ground, the command GO was given to the driver. However, the truck failed to move and the second command GO! was given. Now at that point the grizzly just spun around 180 degrees and snatched the cage, Ranger and all, right out the back of that pickup truck.

The Ranger thinking fast, was drawing his pistol out of his holster as he was in mid-air. Now up on hitting the ground at point blank range, the ranger started shooting to defend himself from the attack of the 300 lb grizzly. He did manage to kill that bear but not before it broke his leg with a bit of it's jaws and inflicted numerous slashes and bits on his body. His pistol caliber was a .357 magnum. Now he carries a 44magnum pistol.

Don't make yourself a target. Make enough noise and they will stay clear. If you do find yourself feeding a Bear than sure WTF un load only one will walk away. I mean crawl away. I'm sure the average shot would make it stop but that would only bring trouble down the road. If it didn't die then it would get very week and go for easyer prey.

Hi everyone, Im new to this forum. I was just reading some of the past chats, very interesting. I particulary like the the ones about bears. Since Im a outdoor kind of person and I go hiking alot I have a question. Has onyone ever had to shoot a good sized black bear with a 45 auto? Does anyone think a FMJ 230gr. fired from a glock 21 could stop a black bear charge? What about double taps 10mm 215gr. Hardcast wfn ?


Hi, this is my first post as well, I was looking for 657 S&W

but your post caught my eye,

I was a bush pilot and guide 8 years in Alaska out of Egegik

I carryed a 657

I had a German client , that insisted to shoot a bear with his 357 mag, I let him from about 20 feet ,after I killed it with my 458 win "First"
he took off to the lodge on a 3 wheeler to tell every on of his friends about his Kill,
Skinning it , to start with he only hit it 4 times, the other hits never made it through the ribs after going through wet hair and fat,

now I killed one by accident ,taking the trash to dump, we surprized each other, he ran by me and I fired one shot , to my surprise he went down at about 40 steps,

more surprised the bullet went in behind the shoulder and stopped under skin on other side.

I had a 300 Win mag first year, I shot a bear tearing up my plane 3 times, the other guide shot 3 shots from 338 win, then the lodge owner broke him down with a 375H&H
the next year I carried a 458, and it was a good thing,,
thatsa rifle charging story

i was using 215 grain hard cast 41 with 18 gr 296.

I shot a few bears after they were killed and still warm with my pistol using copper jack bullets ,from highly respected manufactures,,,none of the jacketed bullets made it in to a vitle.. they all open up too fast the hard lead cast bullet I killed the 900 lb one for real,, I think I could have reloaded and shot again.

as far as your 45 auto, fire the first shot at your self,
and make it count!!

Brian McDaniels
Rifle Maker ( Black Mesa Express)

Aren't we talking about the smaller black bear?

ya , I guess its about Black bear , wet hair makes a big differance even on deer, but as far as Black Bear/Brown,,,,,I had a 10 lb house cat eat me up
giving it a antibiotic shot,,, sure glad he did not weight 250,,regarless. Black /Brown or purple

a mad or hurt critter is bad news,
The Army classified a man as small game, a 22 hit he is out of the game.

a deer you can blow his heart out and he will run a mile,

now I apologize about making a post ,,
I taught school at Aberdeen Proving grounds and , natch we used some pigs for testing,

I wish the idiots had wild bore and see what differance there is,

point was, a Bear feeding on berries can be killed with a 22,

a hurt bear or mad , will eat you and everything between you and him,
a 45 was made for smale game !

I am a 100% disabled vet now , 5 years 1965 71

you know , the 22LR has a better chance than the 45 killing a Black Bear, why?

same reason you can shoot a douglas fir that you can ,just reach around, and the 30 cal. carbine with GI hard ball will go allthey way through that tree,,I have won many a bets on that one , try it with any thing else.

futher more one of my jobs was flying people across Bristol bay to the hospital,,
lot of eskimos,,, they kill polor bear with 22 mag , solids,

I took all of them to the Hospital for 3&4 wheeler broken bones!

My in-laws live in Anchorage, Alaska. They carry .45acp w/ 230 gr fmj everywhere they go, even to the outhouse since bears seem to be attracted.

I forgot to mention that I have owned a 455 Tracker that seemed to work very well with 230 grn ball ammo. I like the knock down power that it provided when going after hogs. At the range I got on average 4" grps standing and 2" resting at 50'. The only reason I sold it was because I went to the T/C for its interchangability of brls.