I have neither, but would like to get a big bore lever gun. It would be used for hunting deer in the woods and possibly as a carry gun in Alaska. I will likely want a short barrel and I am not particularly recoil sensitive. I reload. What advantages does each cartridge possess?

Ford vs. Chevy. - I own both, they're both great. If you're loading your own ammunition you can pretty much have anything you desire from mild to wild with either. Having said all that I prefer the 444. Get one and don't look back!

Bird Dog,
It is really a tough choice.
I started out with a daisy about 45 yrs.ago.
Then as I was growing up I picked up a few levers while in the Navy.
Then a few years ago I was introduced to this website and I've not been the same since then.
I along with alot of others have been diagnosed with what is called Marlinitis.
The short story is unless you want to start a lever war you might as well as go and get both the .444 and .45-70.
You are going to anyway.
Check out this websites articles on the .444 and its unlimited reloadability.
I swear that between Marshal's articles and Ranch Dogs reports these two men have been selling more .444's than Marlin themselves.
Hay by the way did you see all the new stainless on the market.

Good-Luck
Webfoot

Have had both, and thinking about it, considered each to be good for the same jobs (can add in the .450M. if you like)...if one was any better than the other in the field, couldn't detect it.

The choice would be one of personal preference, just a mental flip of the coin as both guns are the same except for the hole run through the barrel.

I've got them both and and you are basically talking the 1895G or the 444P (short barrels). I personally would go with the 444P and not look back. With Marshall's Beartooth bullet selection and Hodgdon powders, this rifle will do ANYTHING you want to do.

With practical bullet choices, the 444 will provide a flatter trajectory for a greater Point Blank Range compared to the 45-70.

The 444P was built from 1998 through 2002 so you will have to find one on the used market. They've been running about $413 this year on GunBroker and Auction Arms, about $10 under what a current production 444 will cost. A NIB sold for $580. Overall and with the limited production, a 444P would not only be a great performing BB but a good investment.

Bird Dog,

I have hunted deer with a Marlin 444P since the Fall of 2000, and I must say that I am very impressed with it. The rifle is easy to carry, it is very precise, and deer just just don't like it all. I mounted a Leupold Vx-II 2-7X33 telescopic sight on it to take best advantage of it.

I don't know why, but it seems that my whole levergun collection has been discontinued. I also have a Marlin 1894P. It looks like the 444P's little brother, and its a 44 magnum. This little rifle is perfect for carrying on long hikes. I have taken five deer with the 44 Magnum. The cartridge does very well.

This might be another big bore levergun worth considering.

Best wishes,
Rushbeau

I was kind of expecting to see more .45-70 backers than .444s. I will say that I inline Muzzle-load hunt with .454 sabots loaded to .45-70 levels and have been very impressed with the performance of those bullets in the field. I am sure the heavy .44s would do about the same.

Count me in on the .45/70 side of the arguement. You can shoot anything from mild cow boy style loads, on up to the Garrett or Buffalo Bore elephant killers, with an almost unlimited range of loads between these two extremes.

I only have three .45/70's so far: a Marlin 1895G, a Marlin 1895 Cow Boy, and a Winchester 1886 Take Down. I would also like to get a Sharps '74, maybe a Trapdoor Springfield, and probably a BFR revolver someday. For my "medium" bore lever action, I have an 1895 Winchester in .405 Win.

The old .45/70 will do anything you could ever want. I don't have a .444. Not that I have anything against them. I just don't need one.

I've got them both and and you are basically talking the 1895G or the 444P (short barrels). I personally would go with the 444P and not look back. With Marshall's Beartooth bullet selection and Hodgdon powders, this rifle will do ANYTHING you want to do.

With practical bullet choices, the 444 will provide a flatter trajectory for a greater Point Blank Range compared to the 45-70.

The 444P was built from 1998 through 2002 so you will have to find one on the used market. They've been running about $413 this year on GunBroker and Auction Arms, about $10 under what a current production 444 will cost. A NIB sold for $580. Overall and with the limited production, a 444P would not only be a great performing BB but a good investment.

Or, you could buy a 444 or 45/70 in 22" bbl and have it cut to desired length and recrowned. Opinions vary on the desirability of the ported barrel (it's very loud but does mitigate recoil). This would also get you a shorter barrel with pistol grip instead of the straight grip. Depends on what you want. Since the 22" barrel versions tend to be cheaper, the added cost to cut and crown should more or less level out depending on your local gunsmiths. Just an option.

As said before, with each properly loaded it really is a ford/chevy thing, execpt that chevys are better and I like the 45/70;).

I've owned both and really I just "like" the 45/70 better. Something classy about a round thats been around as long as it has.

I too own both, but when I'm serious about putting meat in the freezer, it's the Triple-Four that punches my tag. Been doing that for 25 years now... kind of a rut I'm in, but a successful one at that!

Inexpensive cowboy bullets with a load of Unique, Universal or Blue Dot make great 1200-1400 fps plinkers for critters off-season as well. No recoil and very little muzzle report make them almost addictive to shoot.

God bless,

I have taken down some of the largest grizzlies and moose with the .45-70 and doubt with inexperience that the .444 can do likewise. That is drawing a line I know but with my personal use the .45-70 is without question a true brutal force contender-in close.

regards,

Regarding the .444 and moose. Only one harvest here, but at 215 yards, my hunting partner hissed that I'd shot over my bull when he saw a plume of grey dust rise off the granite boulder beyond. The bull moose had simply disappeard at the shot, and upon investigation, the bull was down for the count, with both shoulders broken, and eight inches of spine destroyed! The grey dust had been from the bullet striking the granite AFTER penetrating lots of pretty tough moose tissue and bone! :D

A fun, and memorable day!

God bless,

I went through all this about a month ago.
2 weeks ago I picked up a new 444.
reasons one makes a choice can be personal preference.
I think if max power is your preference with handloads the edge goes to the 45-70.
Which is one of the reasons I chose the .444?
I noted that with max loads in the 45-70 recoil aproches the 458 Winchester. And with stories of some experiencing detatched retinas with the heavy recoiling rifles.
And my only having one eye I did not want to risk the temptation to punish myself.
Besides I have never seen an elephant in my rose garden.
Buf only in zoo's
Iowa does not have bear, Black or Griz.
My intent was to use the rifle for deer and hopefully a trip south for wild hog and the .444 should be plenty, yet not excessively punishing.

BTW Birddog you got any hogs down there?

I'll vote .444 Marlin. If the elephants show up in my neighborhood.... heck, I'll just break out the .458 Win Mag :eek:

Seriously.... if Marlins have a glaring flaw, it is that the stock design isn't worth snot for heavy recoil. Thus, the .45-70s get somewhat lively with heavy loads; the .444 is more managable.

Not that I'd turn down a good Marlin .45-70 if I found one.... :D

BTW Birddog you got any hogs down there?

Yes there are hogs in southern and now in south central Missouri. Quite a few from the stories I am hearing and the populations are increasing and moving north along some river valleys. There have been a lot at Ft Leonard Wood for quite a while and they encourage hunting them. In fact the Conservation Department encourages killing them on site if you see one while hunting other species. On the other hand, they claim there are only 1,000 to 3,000 in the state. This contradicts what some of my friends have reported seeing along a couple of river valleys in South Central MO. The truth lies somewhere in between I'm sure. Since generally everyone in that country has a .30-06 or .30-30, I imagine the population is controlled by the locals, with certain pockets with higher concentrations in remote areas.

Go with the 444!
I have killed over 40 moose with mine since 1989, and I think that the 444 is an outstanding big game rifle with a good bullet.

If big game, like moose or big bears is on the list, load with a good 300 gr. + castbullet, or a 300 gr. jacketed bullet, like Speer or Swift.

Most of my moose I have taken with the 300 gr. Speer Uni-Core and my home cast 318 gr and 350 gr bullets.

For praktice, just buy the cheapest pistol bullet, cast or jacketed you can find, or start casting your own bullets.

If you reload then the only advantage to the 444 is using the cheaper pistol bullets for practice. When the 444 came out Marlin was trying to get hunters back to a high power lever gun. The 45/70 was loaded down to the original black power pressures due to the trapdoor Springfields out there. I doubt that any factory would have been willing to put out a high pressure 45/70 at that time. Marlins idea was to have a 200 yard cartridge which is what the factory round works well for. Nowadays you can buy high pressure loads for the 45/70 so theres not too much difference between the two. My 444 was accurate with just about any load. Dont know about the 45/70 but it sure is popular. Personally I dont find the 22 inch gun all that difficult to carry. It seems to be about the perfect balance to me. Unless you like the idea of an old classic cartridge then get the 444. You wont be dissapointed.

With practical bullet choices, the 444 will provide a flatter trajectory for a greater Point Blank Range compared to the 45-70.


When both the 45-70 Gov't and 444 Marlin are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given equal sectional density, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal weight, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 Gov't will shoot just as "flat" (as in equivalent trajectory) as the 444 Marlin while delivering more energy to the target and more recoil to the shooter.

And so, the great saga of the .444 vs. the 45/70 continues ... rather comforting isn't it? ... just as surely as the sun rises and sets each day :p. Anyone up for a .308 vs. .30-06 argument? ... I bet kdub would just love it :D:D:D. [ P.S., I'm just kidding lest some gung-ho troll takes me seriously ]

Please gentlemen, continue with the topic at hand ;).

And so, the great saga of the .444 vs. the 45/70 continues ... rather comforting isn't it? ... just as surely as the sun rises and sets each day :p. Anyone up for a .308 vs. .30-06 argument? ... I bet kdub would just love it :D:D:D. [ P.S., I'm just kidding lest some gung-ho troll takes me seriously ]

Please gentlemen, continue with the topic at hand ;).

I guess I'm the troll. I love the .308, but's is significantly disadvantaged with 200 and 220 grain bullets, so don't even go there. That's my area of expertise having shot a lot of both.

I am a newbie on the .444 vs .45-70 though. One question on the .444, does the semi-rim make it more or less reliable, and more or less smooth in the action?

When both the 45-70 Gov't and 444 Marlin are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given equal sectional density, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal weight, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 Gov't will shoot just as "flat" (as in equivalent trajectory) as the 444 Marlin while delivering more energy to the target and more recoil to the shooter.

Jackfish is correct. You get more thump, on both ends, with the .45-70.

Trouble is... the .45-70 starts to deliver some serious thump at the higher end loadings!

If I am allowed a vote, it would go to the 45-70. The 45-70 is able to launch bullets that weigh twice as much as the 444 and at substantial velocities,,,, and recoil. I don't have a 444 but my shooting and hunting buddy does,, the 444 is a great gun and fully able to take most any game we are likely to encounter. I really doubt for most situations there really is a nickles worth the difference. I am just enamored with the 45-70, especially since I have owned so many. Interesting side note. I lived in Tucson for 25 years or so and I was hunting in the mountains in the Southeast and found a very old 45-70 on the ground. It was one of the first years it was made as it was inside primed. I sure wish it could talk, I have often wondered if it was shot at a deer by a Trooper,, or an Apache.

Hi Birdog,

You had asked about feeding reliability regarding the 444Mar.. The action on my Marlin 444P is very smooth, and catridges load very smoothly from the magazine to the lifter and into the chamber. I have run lots of ammo through my rifle without any malfunctions.

Best wishes,
Rushbeau

Trouble is... the .45-70 starts to deliver some serious thump at the higher end loadings!

a certain fact and without a doubt! :D

If you don't handload, you are more likely to find 45/70 ammo than you are to find 444 Marlin in any given location. The 444 Marlin factory ammo you find will be much more suitable to hunting than the 45/70, unless you stumble across a store that carries Buffalo Bore ammunition.

If you handload, there is no practical difference, and I would suggest just buying what you can find. Unless you want something really specific, like th 18" guide gun or the 26" CB, in which case you have already made a specific decision. While I have heard of a couple of instances of each from the different manufacturers that wouldn't shoot no-matter-what, I believe these to be rare occurrances.

I personally have a Marlin 1895 because I found it before I found a 444. In either case, I was looking for the curved grip and 22" barrel, either calliber would have been just fine. I am quite happy with my 1895.

My next Big Bore lever gun will be a 444XLR, which I will buy as soon as I can lay my hands on one. I'm not expecting that to be soon, unfortunately...

"Iowa does not have bear, Black or Griz."

oh! oh! now you've gone and done it!! The re-intro boys are comin' yer way!! :D with black bear, griz, and wolves for the price of a $500 increase in yer taxes!! :D

"Iowa does not have bear, Black or Griz."

oh! oh! now you've gone and done it!! The re-intro boys are comin' yer way!! :D with black bear, griz, and wolves for the price of a $500 increase in yer taxes!! :D

Well I think they wouild be met with some serious resistance.
There are some isolated pockets of feral hogs and Farmers orgainzations are on a serious campaign to kill them all before they spread. I understand their motives.
But bought the .444 with hogs in mind, but may have to leave the state to find them. Everytime I hear a rumor of ferals, by the time I track it down they have been hunted out,

Try stuffing a 525 gr bullet in the 444. Either is possible in the 45-70 or 450 Marlin. The original post mentioned Alaska and bears. I'd want a 525 gr. Piledriver in the 1600 fps range. Grizzly Cartridge loads a 405 gr Belt Mountain Punch bullet in the 45-70 at 2050 fps.

Try stuffing a 525 gr bullet in the 444. Either is possible in the 45-70 or 450 Marlin. The original post mentioned Alaska and bears. I'd want a 525 gr. Piledriver in the 1600 fps range. Grizzly Cartridge loads a 405 gr Belt Mountain Punch bullet in the 45-70 at 2050 fps.

NonPC has brought up the most important distinction between these two cartridges. My big question to all of the 444 fans is this: What is the the longest, heaviest bullet that will actually cycle from the magazine of a typical Marlin, AND chamber? It seems to me that the heaviest bullets with the highest sectional density for use in the 444 are much more like the the lightest of the 45/70 loads.

When you're talking about possibly running into large, dangerous critters, I'll take a larger diameter, heavier bullet with the highest sectional density anytime. This is particularly true when the flat trajectory advantage the 444 shooters claim really only amounts to 25 to 50 yards at most. IMHO

When you're talking about possibly running into large, dangerous critters, I'll take a larger diameter, heavier bullet with the highest sectional density anytime.

Yeah that is why I choose .45 cal sabots over .44 in my inline. It is also why I like .54 Hawkens more then .50s. When I wrote the post, i wondered if the .444 had any practical trajectory advantages or fed smoother or worse with the semi rim.

NonPC has brought up the most important distinction between these two cartridges. My big question to all of the 444 fans is this: What is the the longest, heaviest bullet that will actually cycle from the magazine of a typical Marlin, AND chamber? It seems to me that the heaviest bullets with the highest sectional density for use in the 444 are much more like the the lightest of the 45/70 loads.

When you're talking about possibly running into large, dangerous critters, I'll take a larger diameter, heavier bullet with the highest sectional density anytime. This is particularly true when the flat trajectory advantage the 444 shooters claim really only amounts to 25 to 50 yards at most. IMHO
Yes I tend to agree that the heaviest practical bullet for the .444 is around 350 grns. I think BTB does make a 404 grn.
My question is, if one can get through penetration of around 30+ " and place the bullet in the pump station(heart lung area) with expansion dia. around 3/4", is not more overkill?
If my .444 is inadequate with 265-350+ grn bullets I don't care to face the critter that would laugh at my pop-gun. :D

Jim... I agree with you.

I kill at least 10 big game animals a year with my pop-gun (444) and sometimes as many as 18. I haven't had one walk off yet.

Here is the external ballistics for my 444T, 47.0-grains of H4198 and my Lee TLC432-285-RF (265-grain). Let's see your 45-70 shoot this flat. I've killed at least 50 big games animals with this load and would hunt ANYTHING in North America with it. Marshalls 265-grain BTB is capable of the same.

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Firearms/Images/ExtBallistics444TTLC432.jpg

I do own and shoot Marlin's in all three calibers. My preference is my old beater 444T.

Ya, I think you two hit on something here. What game animal is going to stand up to a 405gr hardcast lead bullet placed in the right spot. I love my marlins, especially the big bores. I've owned both the 444 and 45/70. Properly loaded I would NEVER feel underguned with either. Take a look at MikeG's thread on low velocity hardcast bullets and penetration on a waterbuffalo, what do you think a 444 or 45/70 would do. They are both good choices for different reasons. I don't have any experience with the 450M but would guess its just as good of a choice.

Jim... I agree with you.

I kill at least 10 big game animals a year with my pop-gun (444) and sometimes as many as 18. I haven't had one walk off yet.

Here is the external ballistics for my 444T, 47.0-grains of H4198 and my Lee TLC432-285-RF (265-grain). Let's see your 45-70 shoot this flat. I've killed at least 50 big games animals with this load and would hunt ANYTHING in North America with it. Marshalls 265-grain BTB is capable of the same.

Using the ballistics tool on this site, I see that this bullet moving along at 1663 ft/second with a meplat of .312 (this is at 225 yards out) will leave a permanent wound channel of approximately 1.3 inches in diameter. I'd have to agree that this is more than adequate for anything I'd want to encounter.

Ranch Dog, That chart is very helpful and has opened my eyes a bit. I thought of the .444 as a 200-250 yd cartridge.
But it proves that with practice 300yds is possible.

Ranch Dog, That chart is very helpful and has opened my eyes a bit. I thought of the .444 as a 200-250 yd cartridge.
But it proves that with practice 300yds is possible.

Not to start a big argument with anyone, but if you really think 250yd+ shots are in the equasion, there are much more deadly calibers than either the .444 or .45-70. From the chart, with that bullet and velocity, you get 24" of wind drift with just a 12mph cross-wind. So if you calculate both the windage and distance correct, and if the wind at your location is constant for the length of the shot, you have to hold 16" high and 24" left or right. Certainly it can be done, but certainly animals can get wounded as well. I'd have to have virtually no wind to want to try that shot.

By comparison, a simple 180 gr .308 yields a drift of only 9.5" vs the 24", plus 300 lbs more energy at 300yds. And its higher sectional density and striking velocity = more penetration.

The big-bore levers are great and I have knocked the stuffings out of some deer with 250 gr .45 bullets, but unless there is some windless, known distance hunting preserve I don't know about, let's be realistic with this 300 yd talk and 265 gr cast bullets.

Bird Dog...

I wasn't saying the 444 Marlin was a 300-yard cartridge, just saying it shoots flatter than any 45-70 load I've shot out of MY 1895G. No cut and paste ballistics here, these ballistics are shot on my 300-yard range behind my house.

Let's see your 45-70 shoot this flat.With a 24 inch barrel, and a 300 grain bullet with a similar nose configuration as the .429" 265 grain Hornady, a 45-70 would shoot as flat. Also, all of the previous load data for the 444/265 I've seen here the most it reaches is 2359 fps.

Bird Dog...

I wasn't saying the 444 Marlin was a 300-yard cartridge, just saying it shoots flatter than any 45-70 load I've shot out of MY 1895G. No cut and paste ballistics here, these ballistics are shot on my 300-yard range behind my house.

I gottcha Ranch. I figured all the experienced shooters here like yourself knew it wasn't a good 300yd hunting cartridge. But a lot of less experienced shooters get on forums like these to learn things and I wanted make sure they knew the realistic field limits. The 265 .444 300yd sentence just struck me wrong.

Jackfish wrote!
///With a 24 inch barrel, and a 300 grain bullet with a similar nose configuration as the .429" 265 grain Hornady, a 45-70 would shoot as flat. Also, all of the previous load data for the 444/265 I've seen here the most it reaches is 2359 fps.///

With Vihtavuori N120 you reach 2415 fps out of the 22 in testbarrel they use.
www.vihtavuori.fi

When my friend get his new 444 XLR with a 24 in barrel I will try that load in his rifle.
My guess is that it will do 2500 - 2550 fps out of the mussle.

Jackfish wrote!
///With a 24 inch barrel, and a 300 grain bullet with a similar nose configuration as the .429" 265 grain Hornady, a 45-70 would shoot as flat. Also, all of the previous load data for the 444/265 I've seen here the most it reaches is 2359 fps.///

With Vihtavuori N120 you reach 2415 fps out of the 22 in testbarrel they use.
www.vihtavuori.fi (http://www.vihtavuori.fi)

When my friend get his new 444 XLR with a 24 in barrel I will try that load in his rifle.
My guess is that it will do 2500 - 2550 fps out of the mussle.More like 2470 fps.

Maby you are right Jackfish, maby not.
I can't argue, becouse I have not shoot the load trough a 24 in barrel, but I will post as soon as I have tested the load in my friends XLR.
But that can take some time, becouse my friends dealer told him that the rifle should be here in the first half of September.

It would be interesting to here what velocity that load would give from a 24 in barreled 444T.
Maby someone "over there" in your country have a 444T and a bottle of Vihtavuori N120.

When I put Lee liquid alox on the 265 grs Hornady bullet and loaded with 50,5 grs N120, ( maximum load in Vihtavuori manual) I got 2457 fps out of a 22 in barrel, ( average of five shoots).

I really would like to se the results of that load out of a 24 in barrel.

Our hunting load with the 265gr Ranch Dog Special is an avg 2380fps thats the load in 2004 my wife shoot her doe with at around 150 yards, and we have got an avg 2518fps for a upper end accurate load with that bullet. Thats a 50/50 ww/lino mix .433 and Reloader#7 powder with the 444T.

With a Beartooth 250gr and a 444S 22" barrel is very easy to get a accurate 2500fps load.
.................................................. ...................Marko

405,
"When I put Lee liquid alox on the 265 grs Hornady bullet and loaded with 50,5 grs N120, ( maximum load in Vihtavuori manual) I got 2457 fps out of a 22 in barrel, ( average of five shoots)"

Our lube for our hardcast bullets wre 50/50 lee alox and bore butter......thats an impressive velocity with the 265gr Hornady.

50.5 grs Vihtavuori N120 and a 265 gr Hornady bullet at 2415 fps out of the mussle of a 22 in 444 Marlin barrel is a really good big game load.
And it is pressuretested and publiced by the powder manufacturer.

In my old 1/38 Marlin this load allso is very accurate.

At anywhere in the 2200-2400 fps range, that is an awesome projectile. That's hotter than the 250 gr .45s I am shooting out of my 209x50 Encore, and they absolutely perform lights out on game.

If you reload the .444 is great. Factory loads are limited. I'm partial to the .444. I reload with Ranch Dog's bullet. Also, the .444 is more shoulder friendly. The .45-70 throws a bigger chunk of lead. However, I don't like nursing a sore shoulder every time I shoot it. Anything one will kill, the other will kill just as dead. And I mean anything that walks on God's green earth.

Well Birdog I went through the same dilemma about a year and a half ago. I knew I wanted a big bore but dang it was hard to decide - especially since I was a "fast and flat" kind of guy for so long. I looked them all over and picked a hundred brains and found the same type of answers you are getting - then what happened is I got a chance to buy a sweet Winchester 1886 Light for a good price and that settled it - now I own a Marlin LTD V in 45-70, a marlin 336 ADL in 32 special, a 336 ADL in 35 Rem and a 30-30 ADL (completly redone-was a mess). That lever disease is contagious! I think I would like a 307,356 and 375 in a lever to complete my battery - or is that just an excuse. Either way I would look until you find one you like, that feels good in the hands, and learn to shoot it - don't waste too much time lookin though - you may be burnin' daylight at the range - jb

Earlier this year I decided to add a big bore to my rack. Because of all of the above info, I figured I would buy either 45-70 or 444 depending on the best deal I could find.

It turned out that I picked up a nice 444S for $350. I am happy with the result.

With upper end loads, the 444 is right at my tolerance for recoil. It's easy to reload. The Hdy. factory 265 gr. ammo is accurate, available and more than adequate for any non-dangerous big game I will encounter (antelope, deer, elk, moose). We have black bear and mountain lion where I hunt and the 444 has plenty of punch for those, too.

My actual field use of the 444 will begin in about 8 weeks when antelope season opens.

I expect I would be just as happy with the 45-70 if the deal had gone that way.

Well Birdog I went through the same dilemma about a year and a half ago. I knew I wanted a big bore but dang it was hard to decide - especially since I was a "fast and flat" kind of guy for so long. I looked them all over and picked a hundred brains and found the same type of answers you are getting - then what happened is I got a chance to buy a sweet Winchester 1886 Light for a good price and that settled it - now I own a Marlin LTD V in 45-70, a marlin 336 ADL in 32 special, a 336 ADL in 35 Rem and a 30-30 ADL (completly redone-was a mess). That lever disease is contagious! I think I would like a 307,356 and 375 in a lever to complete my battery - or is that just an excuse. Either way I would look until you find one you like, that feels good in the hands, and learn to shoot it - don't waste too much time lookin though - you may be burnin' daylight at the range - jb

I hear you man. I haven't got into the levers yet, but I sure like handling the family 1876 .40-06. I have thought about getting some ammo loaded for it and taking to the deer woods, but haven't yet. Anyway, I am still a fast and flat guy, but I do some .50 and .54 cal muzzle load shooting and enjoy it completely. I will add a big bore lever someday when funds allow. Unfortunately, this post has not done a lot to make up my mind on which caliber. I do know I want it to be a carbine. Probably it will be the .45-70. When all else is the same, bigger is better I think. Of course the .444 may be more pleasant to shoot with lighter loads. Hmm? Here we go again.

If you compare your loading data using your powder guide and the Beartooth Bullet comparisons i.e. the Thornily relative stopping power and the Taylor Knockout power you will generally find the 45-70 is more powerful than the .444. I did mine using ADI powder 2207 with 300gr projectiles as a comparison and the 45-70 always came out on top.

I should have asked this I guess. Since I'll be wanting a carbine, is either better suited for a short barrel?

Bird Dog,

I don't think either of the two would have any advantage over the other from a carbine length barrel. In other words, you would have roughly the same loss in velocity by going from a 22" to 18.5" barrel with either.

Just to keep the pot stirred a little, though, I thought I'd throw out the Buffalo Bore Rifle Ammunition data for the .444 and the .45/70 from the Cabela's Shooting & Reloading catalog. They have two listings for the .444: a 270 Gr. JFN at 2250 fps, and a 335 Gr. LRB-GC at 2025 fps. They have five listings for the .45/70: a 300 Gr. GD at 2350 fps, a 350 Gr. JFN at 2150 fps, a 405 Gn. JFN at 2000 fps, a 430 Gr. LBT-LFN at 1925 fps, and a 500 Gr. FMJ-FN at 1625 fps.

When you add in all the combinations possible from the various reloading manuals, there's a load out there that will anything you could ever need with either. There are just more possible choices with the .45/70. The same thing applies with the rifles chambered for the two rounds. The warning from Buffalo Bore says that their ".45/70 magnum" ammo is suitable for use in Browning 1885 and 1886 rifles, Marlin 1895's made since 1972, New England Arms Handi Rifles, T/C Encore, any Winchester 1886 made since 1900.

----

---- The subject has been worked over pretty good , -- but , most times , it reads out as adversarial , -- with them that owns each , trying to claim , their's is the skookum choice .


Actually , to this humble Child , -- the two Cartridges are very similar and each overlaps the other in most of the applications to which the respective Cartridges are used .


To really compare , I think , you have to first plug in the usual usage of the weapons ; -- which will then delineate the areas of difference , -- and set up a better basis for comparison .


For a beginning , I'm going to suggest that we're talking Big Game Hunting as a common use ; -- and that we're talking Leverguns , as the common weapon of choice for these Cartridges . --- I know there can be other uses , -- but I would guess that these are the most common .

--- In any case , -- it's a beginning for apples to apples comparison , and excludes some of the rare and seldom-seen variables .


Lever guns are , in the main , Brush Guns or Woods rifles . --- Their main efficacy , as a species , is as fast-handling rifles ; -- for use where the target is fleeting , the shot must be made quickly , ( perhaps on moving game ) ; -- and the quarters are close . -- ( e.g. , Heavy cover , where long barrels get hooked up in the brush ) .


So given the above , -- how do the two , ( .444 vs. .45-70 ) compare ?


On the light end of respective bullet weights , There is little problems . --- Both will kill effectively when the target animals are relatively light , ( like Whitetail Deer ) . -- So , '' light-for-caliber '' bullets will do just fine in either .


But the reason folks buy Big-Bore Carbines is , primarily , for the big power on the other end , where '' heavy-for-caliber '' bullets are used .


--- That's when massive power and penetration is needed to anchor very large Animals . And the trade off , is heavy recoil at maximum loads . --- Power is the name of the game .


The claim is often made that the .45-70 , properly loaded , will do anything the .444 will do and more .


But will it really do it as well ?


You can cherry pick your ballistics , and like most statistics , you can show almost anything your biases predispose you to .


But it seems most fair , ( and most meaningful ) , to me , to compare the two with bullet weight and velocity held constant .


Both the .444 and .45-70 are plenty lethal to light Whitetail , when the lightest bullets are used . The lightest bullets are pumpkin-balls , with little sectional density , -- but it don't matter :D . --- When light game gets tagged with either of these large caliber numbers , it's plenty of power to get a nose-dive .


The big practical difference , is on the '' heavy-for-caliber '' end .


Now we're into the real use that Big-Bores were created for , -- large , hard to kill Animals .


The .444 begins the heavy range with bullets , perhaps in the 280 to 300 Gr. Category , -- and tops out at about 400 Gr.


The .45-70 gets heavy somewhere around 400 Gr. , and tops out in the 500 to 550 Gr. Area .


In both cases , the spread is around 100 Grains , at the point where the bullets get too long for the , usual factory twists to handle . --- That's a very important 100 grains , in terms of recoil and second shot recovery .


Within the range of practical-use bullet weights ; --- note that when velocity and bullet weights are held constant , in each respective Cartridge ; --- the .444 will always have greater Sectional-Density ; -- and therefore better penetration potential . ( This will always be true if bullet construction and design are also held constant ) .

--- I.E. The .444 will kill better , and anchor Big Animals better , -- from any angle -- ; as compared with the same weight bullet , and velocity in the .45.70 .


So , it is not misleading to say that the .444 is the -- '' more powerful '' round , in terms of killing power , -- in the , say , 300 to 400 Gr. Bullet weight range .


But it is here , at around 400 Gr. , that the .45-70 begins to pull away from the .444 , in terms of sheer downrange power . --- because the bullets get too long and heavy for the .444 twist . --- The .444 can't go there , so the .45-70 prevails .


Question is , what do you need the power on the top end of the .45-70 for ?


With proper bullets , .444 will kill any game in North America , with authority . -- So will the .45-70.


I would suggest that the only area where the .45-70's top end power is needed , would be to stop a Brown / Grizzly Bear Charge , -- or a charge from large Moose or Elk .

-- Here , the .45-70 would clearly excel ! --- But here's a kicker , -- they are both inadequate to stop a , real-deal , large Bear charge . --- You have to go to true Stopping rifles for that ( African D.G. Types of .416 Mag. , and up) .


But , least we forget , the design purpose of the Lever Guns . -- We're shooting 7 pound rifles here ; -- and we're shooting Brush guns , where fast shooting is paramount .


--- Ever try to group , while cycling as fast as possible , with a hot and heavy .45-70 load ?? --- Yup , you got it , --- fast follow-up shots are much quicker with the heavy .429's at 350 Gr. , -- than with the .45-70 at 450 Gr. .


And anyone can develop a flinch ; -- '' recoil is the great enemy of fine marksmanship '' .


So here again , the .444 excels , within the purpose and design of these rifles.


I'm workin' up to buying a .444 as my first Big-Bore Levergun . --- I think it's better for every purpose , that I'm interested in , -- as compared to the .45-70 . --- But then again , I've already got a short barreled .458 .


--------------------------- Nose To The Trail , ------ MMCOUGAR .


,

But it seems most fair to me , to compare with bullet weight and velocity held constant.You can cherry pick your ballistics, and like most statistics, you can show almost anything your biases predispose you to.

You just proved it.

Why would anyone think it is fair to limit the 45-70 to 444 Marlin velocities with bullets of equal weight? The 45-70 can drive bullets of equal weight significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. The 45-70 can drive bullets of equal sectional density at least as fast as the 444 Marlin. It is not true that at the same velocity a bullet of equal weight but higher sectional density will always penetrate more. You have to take bullet construction into consideration as well. A 300 grain Nosler Partition in the 45-70 at 2100 fps will definitely out penetrate any jacketed 300 grain bullet in the 444 Marlin at 2100 fps. The plain and the simple of it is the 45-70 is more powerful, will shoot just as "flat", and will subject the shooter to more recoil than the 444 Marlin.'' recoil is the great enemy of fine marksmanship ''Sorry, but lack of practice and competence with a firearm is the enemy of fine marksmanship, not recoil.But here's the kicker , -- they are both inadequate to stop a , real-deal , large Bear charge . --- You have to go to true Stopping rifles for that ( African D.G. Types of .416 Mag. , and up)Patently false. The 45-70 with appropriate loads is more than adequate to stop a brown bear charge. Shot placement is more important than whether someone is using a 458 Mag or 45-70 in that situation.

Jackfish says:
A 300 grain Nosler Partition in the 45-70 at 2100 fps will definitely out penetrate any jacketed 300 grain bullet in the 444 Marlin at 2100 fps.

Prove it!............................................... ..............Marko

--- Yes , -- but I think we're both Cherry Pickin' . -- Or , at least , we're illustrating different aspects of the .444 to .45-70 comparison .

--- The knowledgeable reader can read both statements , ( your's and mine ) , carefully , and discern , very quickly , whats true , under which circumstances , and what's not .

But , more important , -- he can read the points that we illustrate , on both sides of the issue ; --and make his choice in terms of his own specific needs and negatives .

On our apparent argumentation , -- my guess is that it's a paradox , and that both points are true , as qualified , -- although they may appear to be contradictory .

I could diagram-out all of our seemingly contradictory points , -- follow each to it's conclusion using iron- clad qualification of every detail , so as to leave no doubt . -- I could bring each point to it's conclusion , in perspective of perfect Aristotelean Logic , and I'll bet that we'd both end up with some valid points . ---- ( I figure it would take about twenty pages ) .

I flat ain't got time or interest to do that ; -- so I'll just leave it to the reader to recognize what truth is to be found in each of our writings .

I'm just having Fun , here , --- not trying to win for the debate team . -- :p

For what it's worth , I respect your considerable knowledge in defense of the .45-70 , --- and I've enjoyed , and learned from some of your posts .

But I believe that there are considerations , useages , and circumstances , ( some of which I've given here ) , where the .444 is the better performer .

------------- Regards , ------ MMCOUGAR .

A 300 grain Nosler Partition in the 45-70 at 2100 fps will definitely out penetrate any jacketed 300 grain bullet in the 444 Marlin at 2100 fps.

I forgot about the .429" 300 grain Swift A-Frame. Any except one pistol bullet then. Marko, you are the one that presently has both, why don't you prove it wrong?

A 300 grain Nosler Partition in the 45-70 at 2100 fps will definitely out penetrate any jacketed 300 grain bullet in the 444 Marlin at 2100 fps.

I forgot about the .429" 300 grain Swift A-Frame. Any except one pistol bullet then. Marko, you are the one that presently has both, why don't you prove it wrong?

I have many times, thats why I choose to shoot 300gr bullets in a 444, not the 45-70, what I found 25years ago about the 444 vs the 45-70 still holds true today, the major difference today is we have better jacketed/Hardcast bullets then we did back then. I have not tested the 300gr Swift, but I did test the 280gr Swift it is a very good bullet and in my tests did great, but the Swifts not the one to worry about, the Hawk is, I have only tested the .035 jacketed 275gr and it's about as good a jacketed bullet made for the 444, the length on the Swift 280gr is .853 (because of the hollow point) and the Hawk 275gr is .805 and that adds up to more velocity for the hawk. The Hawk 300gr may be better if so it would be very hard to beat. The 275gr Hawk is Left to right # 3 and the Swift 280gr is #4.

http://www.marlinowners.com/gallery/albums/userpics/normal_bulletlinup%20007.jpg

Because I have 444's there is no reason in the world to try and make my 45-70 a 444, after all why burn more powder and have more recoil with the 45-70 just to have the same basic ballistics as 444? My 45-70 likes 400gr bullets and bigger, as it should be, thats what it feels at home with.
.................................................. ........................Marko

Gentlemen - and, we all ARE gentlemen -

I call your attention to board policy, namely - be respectful and courteous in your answers to the opinions of others. A difference of opinion is healthy for any discussion. Rudeness, blunt challenges and talking down is not. Repeated posts with these atributes will lead to temporary bans of the posters.

Thanks for understanding our policies.

I've got 5 -.444's and 2-.45-70's for hunting I have found I use the .444's more often and my .45-70's ( an '86 Win and a 32" '85 High Wall) seem to end up being used for range competition.

I've used 'em all at one time or another for all kinds of big game hunting and, I like being able to load the .444's and keeping them on the "plate" throughout a predetermined range of let's say up to a couple of hundred yards. The .45-70's are great if you have a load for a specific yardage, but because of their inherently higher hyperbole trajectory, their ballastic characteristics tend to keep them off the "plate". If I could make that Elk, Deer, or Brown stand exactly in one spot, at one distance, I guess that I never would have bought a .444 and my old .45-70's would have been fine.

The .45-70's are great if you have a load for a specific yardage, but because of their inherently higher hyperbole trajectory, their ballastic characteristics tend to keep them off the "plate".When loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, the 45-70 will shoot just as "flat" as the 444 Marlin. The 45-70 can be loaded even faster in the modern Win 1886 and Win 1885 High Wall. Hence, with the right loads the 45-70 will be on the "plate" right with the 444 Marlin.

Not wanting to end the never-ending argument of 444 vs 45-70. . . I was able to handle one of the new 444 XLRs at my local gunshop yesterday. WOW! They are really nice. I'm going to have to start saving some serious coinage and pick one of these up. It was very well made, nice fitting of wood to metal, etc. Definitely one for the private arsenal.

Truth is, with proper loads, both the 444 and 45-70 are very efficient elk harvesters provided the shooter does his/her job. Whether one can shoot a little (maybe) flatter than the other doesn't make much difference to me and it shouldn't to others because really, we're talking about rounds good for around the 200 yard mark or just a tad farther. I'm impressed with both cartriges and have owned a 444P. (Marshall wanted me to give it to him for Christmas) I currently own the 1895GS and love it. Some of it is the history of the 45-70, but some of it is how well I shoot that rifle.
If only one of them was a good cartrige, they wouldn't make rifles for the other cartrige. Some guys choose the 444 so they can use the same bullets in their sidearm or maybe just because they like the 44 caliber and the same for the 45-70 guys. For either side, it could be a good or bad experience with either cartrige or they just shot one better than the other. To me, its a matter of personal preference and I'm glad not everyone favors one cartrige over everything else because it would make for pretty boring reading here on the forum.
Its a bit like fellows wondering which one is better......The old 45LC with full-tilt loads or the 44 Magnum for handgun hunting. All I know is they both do the job and I'm glad we have the ability to choose.
;)

Have you guys seen the latest H3 Hummer ad. A fellow is in a sporting goods store waiting in line to purchase a new 45-70. The fellow in front of him is purchasing some primers and powder for his 444.

After a brief moment of embarrassed introspection the fellow who was planning on buying the 45-70 runs from the store and immediately buys a new Hummer H3 to restore his manhood.

Who would have thought that it would come to that?

That sure is a big spoon you are stur'n with Lenny!!! Good one!!! That just earned you a hog hunt the next time you are in Texas... providing you show up with your 444!

You .444 shooters have really convinced me! As soon as I get a Shiloh Sharps and BFR in .45/70, and probably an 1860 Henry, 1866 Yellowboy, and 1873 Winchester, and maybe one of those '76 Winchester reproductions, I'll take a serious look at a .444.

That sure is a big spoon you are stur'n with Lenny!!! Good one!!! That just earned you a hog hunt the next time you are in Texas... providing you show up with your 444!
I'll cash that chip! - Took some of the new TLC432-285-RF out for a shoot today; very happy with the results. I was shooting them in my Win 94 chambered in 44 Magnum. It loved them! I've got several boxes loaded for the 444 for some testing too.

http://www.lennytaylor.freeyellow.com/2189.jpg

The 444 hopes to grow up and become a 45-70 someday! Serously they are both pretty awsome, but the edge goes to the 45-70. If you are arguing about longer range shooting at game just get a 338 win or something similar and be happy!

I have Marlins in both and I like both but I prefer the 444. I just don't need (or want) to shoot 500 gr bullets at anything. 444 bullets are generaly cheaper if you reload. I like Hornady 350's in my 45-70 but they are about $36/100 whereas the Hornady 265 in 444 are about $22/100. I also like Marshalls cast bullets .44 300gr WFN are $18.75/100 and .45-70 405 gr are $32/100. Unless you shoot bulk Remingtons 300's or cast your own a lot of the 45-70 component bullets are just awfully expensive. I also shoot real cheap pistol bullets in my 444 for practice. If you don't shoot your guns much it's not an issue, but to me it is and I find I shoot the 444 a lot more and don't miss the 45-70 recoil.

Aah fornra,

And just what "edge" would that be my friend that your speaking about.....

Danny

Well , the modern reloading Lee manual gives a max load for the 444 with a 300 gr bulletof 2082 fps, and same book also gives the 45-70 with 300 gr at 2532 fps! I didn't run this thru a balistics computer, but there is a **** of a lot of difference here. Then you go up in bullet weight if you can, with the 444 and see what you get! The EDGE goes to the 45-70,daaaaaa! If you can't take the recoil then shoot a .22

Good morning!
I dont want to be rude, but 2532 fps with a 300 gr bullet out of a 45-70 caliber Marlin 1895 within the pressure limt for modern rifles is out of the question.
Please, link to the load.

The 2082 fps load with a 300 gr bullet for the 444 Marlin you talk about is from Hodgdon with their H4198 and the bullet is a Swift A-frame.
The Swift bullet is a hp and it is very long, so it take a lot of space in the case.
That is wy the load and the velocity is low.

http://www.marlinowners.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=14486
If you look at this link you will se that the 280 gr Swift A-frame hp is longer than the 300 gr Speer Uni-Core.
The 300 gr bullet from Swift is even longer than that.

I will not argue about that a 45-70 can push a 300 gr bullet faster than the 444 Marlin within pressure limits for newer Marlin 1895, but there is not so big difference.
At longer ranges, the 44 cal bullet has higher BC and better trajectory, so in the end, the difference is just nothing.

Sorry about the link!
Here is the right one.
http://www.marlinowners.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=14812

That 2532 fps with a 300 gr bullet out of a 45-70 caliber was for the Ruger #1 and 50,000 CUP. The Marlin 1895 loaded to 40,000 CUP will achieve slightly over 2400 fps with a 300 grain bullet out of a 24" barrel. I would submit that neither is better than the other. Is a more powerful round actually better? Not necessarily. They are just different.

And, jackfish hits the nail on the head....

They are just different..Well said.

Just to throw some additional fuel to the fire, the Winchester Timber Carbine in 444 Marlin was spec'd out to 55,000 cup, equal to the Ruger #1. (see Paco's excellant article on his site) I know it'll give more of a punch than I ever need to throw. I own both, a Winchester 94 Big Bore in 444 Marlin and a Marlin 45-70. The 45-70 is buttery smooth and a fine gun, but it's taken a back seat to the 444.

Hay guys I do stand corrected, I flipped to the wrong page. But I still perfer the 45-70, if I am hunting somewhere I may need to shoot further than 200 yds, I'll choose my 270win,30-06 or 338 win mag, not a 444,cause it can't give me anything measureable over the 45-70! I ant saying the 444 isn't a great bigbore, just I see no advantage to be gained in buying one. So I guess if you already have a 444,you don't really need a 45-70 unless you are going after something that bites back or wants to stomp you to death.

The debate 444 vs 45-70 has been raging for many years and to me it’s the Tip of the Iceberg theory what you see above water is 10%, but there’s 90% hidden below the water, so if you only look at what’s above water you can’t know what’s below the water. So few people really look under the water, just believe what they see or hear on top.

Let’s look at that Icebergs tip:
1. The 45-70 will “always” shoot a Jacketed or Hardcast bullet of the same weight faster then a 444.
2. The 45-70 will “always” have a greater case capacity then the 444.
3. The 45-70 will “always” shoot a bigger diameter and heavier bullet then a 444.
4. The 45-70 will always look better with paper ballistics.

90% Below the water:

#1 that is a true statement but don’t let that true statement mislead you, we often read about the 45-70 pushing a 300gr bullet 2400fps and faster, the funny thing is it’s always from a manual or some reloading source that’s sighted, very few if any people that I have read or heard say they they do indeed get that great FPS in there 45-70, now velocity is nothing without accuracy and since I never hear about someones 45-70 and 2400fps I then never hear about just how accurate it is, so how can I believe the two can exist together. We do know that a 444 in the Micro-Groove and 1-38 twist can be very accurate in the higher velocity realm, proofs all around us. Let’s assume the 45-70 does get 2400fps and accuracy with a 300gr bullet, at what cost does the 45-70 get that velocity? One we know for sure will be stout recoil, the other is at least 10grains more powder to do it over a 444’s 2300fps with the same 300gr bullet. So we have more recoil, more powder used and for very little gain if any, lets not forget that the laws of Physics will work very hard on that larger diameter bullet the whole time it’s in flight vs a smaller 444 bullet.
The 45-70 has with a 300grain bullet @ 2400fps:
1. More recoil
2. More powder used.
3. Physics working against it harder (trajectory and down range energy)
4. Maybe a little more energy (depends on the ending range and BC used)
VS
The 444 with a 300gr bullet @2300fps:
1. Less recoil.
2. Much less powder used.
3. Physics less harsh on the smaller diameter bullet.
4. With only 100fps loss vs the 45-70 at the muzzle.
5. Could have better trajectory/energy quicker in the flight path (depends on BC used)

If one uses “True” Ballistic Coeffients, for velocity and bullet diameter you will find the differents between the two are slighted towards the 444 quickly in the bullets flight path, most BC’s numbers are for selling bullets, no flat point bullet that can be shot from a 444 or 45-70 has good BC, but the bigger the bullet the worse the BC, but that BC number is one of the most used numbers in ballistic tables to see if one cartridge is better then the other. Book BC numbers do not sometimes reflect speeds the 444 uses with some of the heavier pistol bullets. You can write a book on this subject alone. True BC for bullets used in the 444/450/45-70 is a true gray area and needs to be fixed.

On to #2, case capacity was a smoking gun for the 45-70 fans, we heard it so often that many people believed it, it was a debate ender, the last word. Yes the 45-70 has greater case capacity ( I call it the Black Powder noose) but what does it really mean? As we seen in the example above not enough to write home about. The truth is it’s larger case capacity is what gets people in trouble in Marlins wonderful platform, I have read that you can get 65K psi loads in the 45-70 case, but I don’t know how true that is, we do know Ruger has a 50Kpsi range in there Number One. We do know that a 444 is a very efficient cartridge there is no wasted space for powder and with the normal powders we use in the 444 it would be impossible to get 65kpsi load (at least with the powders I use). We have all read and heard about Blown up Marlin 45-70’s, yes I know bullets lodged in the barrel, or barrel obstructions wrong powders used etc, there’s more to it then that, why? Because the same morons are also loading and shooting the 444 and the laws of averages dictate that there should also be 444’s blown up, but I have yet to read or even hear of one in a Marlin. IMHO a 444 is a safer cartridge in a Marlin, but to each his own.
Marshall still shoots the same 444S that he’s done all his load testing with, if any gun should fall apart that one should, to me that is a “true” testament of a great cartridge/rifle. 99% of the 444 shooters will never shoot there 444 as much and as heavy loads. So greater case capacity to some may just be better, after all some people just look at muzzle velocity/energy as there answer (that tip of the Iceberg)

#3 What can you say, the 45-70 with bullets of 400grains and heavier, that is truly where the 45-70 is light years ahead of the 444, as we all know with today’s big hardcast bullets anything can be hunted and taken with authority, and having a lever action as the platform just adds to a great cartridge a true overachiever vs what paper ballistics says about it.

#4 What can you say ballistics on paper, bigger is always better.


We also read/hear a lot about the 45-70 being better then the 444 because it has many more factory/custom loads available for it. That may be true if the Cowboy loads are included, but for most of us the cowboy loads are for plinking not serious hunting. IMHO the 444 has the advantage in factory loads, let’s face it there are very few 45-70 offerings from Major Ammo manufactures that will be found in all 50 states and in most gunshops/discount stores. The 444 has the factory Remington 240gr load and yes folks the 240gr bullet in today’s Remington ammo is not a PISTOL bullet, it is a bullet designed for the 444 and its velocities. So the two factory loading we will see the most
are the Remingtons 240gr and Hornadys 265gr lite mag, those two loads will cover everything in North America, If it’s Remington or Hornady you will have very good ballistics for the 444 and there darn accurate!, the fact is you really don’t need to handload for the 444 if all you are going to shoot is jacketed bullets. you can’t say that about over the counter 45-70 ammo! Most people who shoot the 45-70 handload because they don’t have the same option as a 444 shooter. The Remingtons and Hornadys are excluded for Big Mean Nasty Bears, there are better bullet choices for that, but the two 444 factory loads are better then a sharp stick if such critters are around.

Custom Ammo can be Mild to Wild for both.

I also read/hear about more bullet choices for the .45-70 vs the 444, I don’t find that to be true, yes the 45-70 has a choice of heavier bullets but not more bullet choices. Lets face there are a lot of pistol bullets available for the 444, and common sense should tell you if you
can use them or not for hunting. We have enough bullet choices for three lifetimes of shooting in both.
The truth is today in both the 444 and 45-70 we have as many good choices of “Premium” jacketed and great hardcast bullets for both. It can’t get much better!

I have said that the 45-70 is light years ahead of the 444 in shooting the big heavy bullets, but at the same time the 444 is light years ahead in shooting lighter bullets, which most of us do. Ask yourself a simple question, how many big game animals are killed every year in North America with bullets under 300grains vs bullets over 300grains?

SD, IMHO has no bearing with any hunting bullet, as long as a bullet can be deformed SD is of no use. It’s one of those numbers that let people waste paper on ballistics.

In short anything a 444 can do in North America a 45-70 can do, a 45-70 can do the big heavy bullets better, a 444 can do lighter smaller bullets better, and for the most part a 444 can do what the 45-70 does in North America with Less Recoil, Less Powder, less Bullet weight, less bullet diameter.
y’all have a great day………………..........................Mar ko

Amen to that Starrbow!

I have all three, 450, 45-70, 444. I like all three and will use any of the three to hunt. That said my preference is the 444. Nice thing about this question is: there is no wrong answer. If you have a friend(s) that have them or a local range where someone might let you try theirs I would recommend you try them and see which you like best.

This has been enlightening to say the least, but I will argue that the same bullet weight will travel faster from a larger bore,given equal pressure. But just in case I agitate a mean varmint which desides it wants to eat me I hope one of you guys with a 444 is near by to stop the charge.

This has been enlightening to say the least, but I will argue that the same bullet weight will travel faster from a larger bore,given equal pressure. But just in case I agitate a mean varmint which desides it wants to eat me I hope one of you guys with a 444 is near by to stop the charge.

but I will argue that the same bullet weight will travel faster from a larger bore,given equal pressure.


Theres no arguement about that, but to get to equal pressure the .458 will have to burn a lot more powder, so why is that better? more powder equals more recoil.

Seems a waste of powder when theres a more efficient means.
.................................................. .........................Marko

This topic always generates lots of chatter.

I am still waiting to hear from the shooter who has killed 100 head of big game with the .444 AND 100 head of big game with the 45-70. That shooter hasn't posted on any of the forums I visit.

I'll bet he'd say, "Heck, give me either one and I'll go kill another hundred head. It's sixes, gents."

As for me, I am looking forward to taking my first animal with my first big bore, a 444S, sometime in the next six weeks. With a little luck I'll have taken three animals by the end of October.

Starting at age 60, guess I'll never get to be the shooter who takes 100 with each. Darn!

naumann, if you lived here in Bama, you just might get to do just that! Our deer season runs for 70 days with a two deer a day limit, one buck and one doe. I know it's very unlikely anyone could actually fill a tag like that but it's legally possiable. Thats just gun season, bow season starts Oct. 15 and muzzle loader starts 5 days prior to gun season also. We got one mother of a deer season!!

You know, you all make it hard on a guy deciding on calibers :D....now, can anyone tell me how to turn the 444 Marlin into a straight stocked rifle :cool: ?


Tim

You know, you all make it hard on a guy deciding on calibers :D....now, can anyone tell me how to turn the 444 Marlin into a straight stocked rifle :cool: ?
TimFind a buttstock, lever and trigger guard plate from a Marlin 444P. They might even work from an 1895G or 336T.

Find a buttstock, lever and trigger guard plate from a Marlin 444P. They might even work from an 1895G or 336T.

Well, in a Way I was kidding :rolleyes:, but now you really Have made it a harder decision!
edited to add: To those who shoot both, is there really that much difference in recoil between the two?


Tim

Well, in a Way I was kidding :rolleyes:, but now you really Have made it a harder decision!
edited to add: To those who shoot both, is there really that much difference in recoil between the two?

Tim

Either caliber can be loaded from mild to wild. Standard commercial Remington loads for the 45-70 give more of a push than a kick. This is due to the fact that they load for the weakest of the actions in the market. Modern 45-70's can handle much higher pressures than what was commercially sold up until just a few years ago. The major manufacturers modern 45-70s can handle loads that will "kill at both ends". The same is true for the 444. I've shot loads that were more a test of my endurance than what is needed to take game.

I own both calibers and really can't find fault with either. Having said that, my hands-down favorite is the 444. I cast my own bullets and have found several different loads that fill my needs nicely. To get the best out of either caliber, you'll want to load your own cartridges.

mmcougar, Since you currently don't have either a 444, or 45-70, I'd say you are unqualified to determine which is best. The long winded response that didn't answer anything, was interesting although anemic. You insist that the 444 is betterfor stopping a charge, well I argue that the 45-70 is better for preventing one in the first place! Also your contention that a 416 is needed to stop a real charge, isn't very accurate either. I've always been told that except for a central nervious system hit,( brain or spine) broken bones were the best way to go. I challenge you to find a better bone breaker than a 45-70 with a very heavy hard cast bullet, these will penetrate deep enough to stop most any charge unless you shoot them in the a$$. Then I wouldn't call it a charge at all.

[QUOTE=fornra]mmcougar, Since you currently don't have either a 444, or 45-70, I'd say you are unqualified to determine which is best. The long winded response that didn't answer anything, was interesting although anemic. You insist that the 444 is betterfor stopping a charge, well I argue that the 45-70 is better for preventing one in the first place! Also your contention that a 416 is needed to stop a real charge, isn't very accurate either. I've always been told that except for a central nervious system hit,( brain or spine) broken bones were the best way to go. I challenge you to find a better bone breaker than a 45-70 with a very heavy hard cast bullet, these will penetrate deep enough to stop most any charge .

---------------------------------------

1. --- Yes , I do have a brand new .444 XLR . -- Just picked it up today , -- ( happy camper ) ; -- they're hard to come by , had to order it out of Pennsylvania . --- But , you're right , at the time of writing , ( above two posts ) I didn't own one . --- None the less , I've owned a short barrelled .458 Win. bolt gun for many yrs. , -- developed and tested many reduced loads in the .45-70-range category .

---- What I hear you saying , is that if a writer doesn't own a certain piece / cartridge , -- no words of truth , or perspective on the subject , can be forthcoming . --- I'll have to think about that .

2. --- Long winded ! , Long winded ! , --- Hmmm , -- well thanks for saying that it was interesting , at some point , anyway . --- But please feel free to skim-read my stuff , or even skip over it completely , if you feel it to be over-long .
------ Actually , I write for the fun of it ; -- the more I'm interested in a subject , the longer I tend to write , --- and I'm really interested in the .444 to .45-70 comparison .

[ Matter of fact , I'm havin' fun right now , -- ;) . ]

3. Think you got me wrong on stopping a D.G. charge , pardner . Please go back and read my prior two posts , ( this thread ) . --- I specifically opine that the .45-70 is better for stopping charges , -- with maximum loadings , and heavy-for-caliber hardcast bullets . --- The .444 doesn't compare well for that specific purpose .

4. I believe that the .416 Mag. with heavy soft-point bullets , is a Starting-Point cartridge for true Stopping rifles , ( in modern , easily obtainable cartridges ) . --- What I had in mind , was that many who have hunted Africa a lot , start out with .375 H&H , and after a close call or two , -- go to .458 Win . , or .470 NE for Charge-Stopping purposes . --- No , I haven't hunted Africa either .

5. --- Yes , I agree that a maximum load with heavy-hardcast in .45-70 will penetrate very well , and break a lot of heavy bone . -- But I don't think it's the weapon of choice among African Pro. Guides , -- or hunters who have had close calls on charges in the past . --- Respectfully , -- (IMHO) , -- stopping large-tough animals in full charge is not where the .45-70 shines ; -- ( or it would be chambered in the rifles that specialize in that pursuit ) . I further believe that N.American Grizzly and Brown Bears , are fully in the Dangerous-Game category , ranking right up there with some of the African thin-skinned types . --- No , I havn't stopped a charge with a rifle of any kind ; --- but I was attacked , for real , by a Black Bear , many yrs. ago . --- Probably has something to do with my interest in the subject .

[ However , the above is not to say that a D.G. animal in full charge , cannot be stopped by lesser cartridges . -- Some of the Legends of Africa , ( Bell , Taylor , Olsa Johnson , ,etc. ?? ) stopped charges with pea-shooters . --- No , I haven't done that either . ]

--------------------- MMCOUGAR .

This is where I put my money:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d70/Gunslinger2005/oc04_018.jpg
Winchester 1886 Take Down .45/70
Winchester 1895 .405 Win
Marlin 1895 Cow Boy .45/70
Marlin 1895G Guide Gun .45/70 with Leupold 2.5x Scout Scope

I've still got to have a Shiloh Sharps in .45/70 before I can think about any other "small bore".

This is where I put my money:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d70/Gunslinger2005/oc04_018.jpg
Winchester 1886 Take Down .45/70
Winchester 1895 .405 Win
Marlin 1895 Cow Boy .45/70
Marlin 1895G Guide Gun .45/70 with Leupold 2.5x Scout Scope

I've still got to have a Shiloh Sharps in .45/70 before I can think about any other "small bore".

Those Marlin 1895 Cowboys are nice looking guns. There's one sitting on the shelf at my local shop that keeps calling my name out every time I walk in. I may have to smother it in a gun case. . . The best looking of the bunch though is that Winchester 1886!

Lenny, I agree. I have to get the '86 out of the safe every so often just to fondle it, even if I can't go shooting. It's a Miroku from 1999. The 1895 Winchester is a Miroku from 2003. On both of them, the metal is polished to perfection, and blued so they almost look like mirrors. The wood to metal fit is just as nice.

Both of the Marlins have Wild West triggers, and have been slicked up a bit. They're the best shooting of the four, not that I have anything to complain about with any of them.

I learned a long time ago that if you're going out looking for a new pet, it's best to pick one that's really attracted to you, not the other way around. If that 1895 Cow Boy calls to you every time you you're near it, LISTEN, and TAKE IT HOME. :D

Gotta love that winchester .405...didnt Pres Teddy Roosevelt use one of those for his hunting trips?

Yeh, Teddy took a couple of the 1895's in .405 Win along on his African safari in 1909 to 1910. He called the .405 his "medicine gun for lions".

I believe he also outfitted a number of the Roughriders with 1895 Winchesters, using his own money, during the campaign in Cuba in 1898. Anyway, John Browning is my favorite gun designer, and Teddy Roosevelt is one of my favorite Presidents, so I had to have one of the .405's.

In comparing .444 to .45-70 , ( and including .450 M ) ;
my research on the subject reveals that one of the most significant differences , is as follows :

If , for any reason , ( like , recoil level , -- the size of the anticipated target Animal , -- the range and trajectory wanted , -- the internal wound-ballistics wanted , -- etc. etc. . ) . . . . .

If for any reason you decide to shoot bullets in the 300 to 400 Grain weight range , --- and you're trying to weigh the merits of the .444 vs. the .45-70 types ; --- it's useful to remember that the .444 will always have superior Sectional Density , -- for any given bullet weight , --- across the board !

Elmer Keith , -- Who embodied a whole lot of field experience , ( and when you combine his own with what he knew from others in his inner circle , [ one of whom was a personal friend of mine ] ) ; --- we're talking boucoup knowledge .

Elmer often wrote that .270 was the minimum S.D. that should be considered when choosing jacketed bullets for Big-Game applications , ( read that , -- big , heavy Animals ) .

Recently , when I have brought this fact out for comparisons ; --- some have replied ,
. . . . . " yes , but with modern engineering in rifle bullets , -- this no longer applies " . --- From my limited knowledge of the very complicated Physics involved , --- I suspect that Elmer's criteria not only still holds true , --- but that it's very germain to current discussions comparing .444 to the .45-70 types .

The following , is from my post on another thread , --- but I thought I'd plug it in , -- for discussion . ( I also , would like to see Marlin offer a fourth Big-Bore in the .40 Caliber range , --- and that's been mentioned here , too ) . A friend of mine recently bought a new Browning .405 Winnie ; -- and I agree that the .405 is a very interesting critter .

--------------------------------------------


If my understanding is correct , Sectional Density represents a , " potential " that , ( all other factors being held as close as possible to equal ) , -- yields greater penetration , in direct proportion size of the S.D. number ; ( i.e. , as the S.D. number increases , -- so does the potential for penetration ) .

At the same time , -- S.D. as a criteria , ( as in Elmer's recommendation of a minimum .270 for Big-Game Animals ) ; -- can act to dictate a relatively Heavy-For-Caliber bullet , --- and thus brings with it , all of the advantages of heavier bullets , ( for use on Large Animals ) .

Case in point , --- that's exactly what the .270 criteria does .

So as an example , ( for the S.D. part of it ) ; we could use a cutting-edge , partitioned , bonded bullet , with an engineered jacket .

---- In comparing the .444 to .45-70/.450M , -- hold everything as equal as possible , -- including the bullet weight, velocity , testing medium , bullet type and construction , etc . --- and guess what ?

The bullet with the greater S.D. , --- will still -- have more lead trapped behind the partition , to keep pushing when the mushroom maxes out , -- thus equalling more penetration .

--- ( I know this example isn't perfect , and any Phd. in Physics from MIT will bring counterpoints , -- but I think it illustrates the greater truth ) .

And it illustrates why , when all of the above are kept strictly , " apples-to-apples " , and strictly within the 300 to 400 Gr. weight range ; --- the .444 is a better killer on Big-Game , ( via it's superior S.D. and penetration ! ) .

So , I believe the principle is as valid today , as in Elmer's day , -- provided you keep strictly to the apples-to-apples comparison .

------------------------------

On the subject of bringing the .405 Win. into the comparison : ---
To discuss 405's , I thought about suggesting a .405 Model Marlin ; --- it would definitely be nice to have a large number of readily-availible bullets in varying weights , on the market , --- I agree .

--- But I would be afraid that .411 is too close to the .429 of the .444 ; -- ( too close to offer much choice -- too much ballistic duplication ) .

.429 to .458 is a jump of .029 inch .

.411 to .429 is only .018 inch .

But if you go a true .400 in the new cartridge , then the jump to the .444 is a dead-solid-perfect .029 , --- just like .444 to .458 spacing !!

** PERFECT SPACING FOR MAXIMUM CHOICE ** .

I don't think the factor of having plenty of bullet choice is all that important for a new issue . --- Consider the new .17's , the .204 , and Winny's decision to go to .32 Cal in their WSM ; --- all of which didn't exactly have a large sellection of bullets out there , -- ( not at first , anyway ) !

All of the above theoretical Cartridges would give Big-Bore Lever Fans a very desirable choice , --- in cartridges designed to compliment the inherent engineering of the M1895 type receiver .

Sports Fans , and Big-Bore junkies ; --- let's all write Marlin , and talk-up a new propriatary Cartridge called the .400 Marlin . --- !!!

P.S. , --- I just received a brand new .444 XLR , -- will have it chopped to 21 " , and install a Wild West trigger , extractor , and rabbit-eared ghost sight , --- ( happy camper , here ) . --- Should make a skookum brush gun -- :p .

------------ Nose To the Trail , MMCOUGAR .

Interesting when you mention the potential of a .400 Marliln, in the fact that when Winchester introduced the .375 Win. round, they also had on the drawing board a .400 Winchester as well. Designed for chambering in the M94BB series of leverguns.

What happened? Well, all-knowing hyper-velocity-loving gunwriters soundly and decidedly killed the .375 Win. cartridge just about from the get-go, and since it withered on the vine, Winchester simply shelved the .400 project.

Funny isn't it though, once the .375 Win. was chambered in the Contender, it suddenly became a kills-all in a short-barrelled handgun ready to take on anything from moose to Kodiak Bronies... go figure.

Anyhow, all this to say that I can't imagine Marlin embracing the idea of a .400 levergun cartridge with much enthusiasm. It is a nice thought however.

God bless,

gunslinger, those are awsome!

mmcougar, according to your line of reasoning,we would all be better armed with a 30-30. But then I wouldn't exactly call it a big bore, would you?

I have an original Winchester 1895 in 405 WCF.
Serial number: 119161
Nice rifle, but the steel buttplate is a killer.
I love the idea of a 400 Marlin cartridge, a .411 bullet in any of the big bore cases.
My 444 is my first choise when I go out in the woods, but I would be the first one to sign up for a .41 cal Marlin.
Maby it would like my wife always says, "why buy new rifles, you only use the 444 anyway", and that is true, but I want!!!!!!

Marshall , --- Well , I guess I'm sowing seeds , in case someone in Marlin's Marketing Dept. reads this Forum .

The history that you gave is probably the practical truth , --- and very interesting . --- Maybe we should count ourselves lucky to have a .444 and a .450 by Marlin .

Personally , I think that yourself , in Bullet design ; --- and the ideas of Tim Sundles , ( Buffalo Bore ) , Garret , and Cor-Bon , ( and others along the same lines ) ; have done more to expand the horizons of the ( relatively straight cased ) Marlin-friendly Big-Bore cartridges , --- than the new XLR plastic tip designs .

There's something going on here , --- I hope the momentum builds . --- I'm a big fan of the Marlin Levers , ( and the Winchester Levers ) --- I was really sorry to see the old Winnie '94 first modified , and now discontinued .

But taking both of these innovations togeather , the Levergun Bigbore cartridges , cover a lot wider range of applications , than they used to . --- I would think that these breakthroughs , -- will support the Marlins , and result in increased popularity .

If the movement gains momentum , --- maybe a Marlin .400 will someday become viable . ---- Hope so .

God Bless you and yours too , Marshall , --- MMCOUGAR .
[ JOHN : 17 : 20 - 23 ] .

I cast my own bullets and have found several different loads that fill my needs nicely. To get the best out of either caliber, you'll want to load your own cartridges.

Would you be kind enough to pass along some of those loads?

I didn't even know the .444 existed until I started Marshall's articles about on this site. This thread has also given me a better understanding of its usefulness. I'm thinkin' I'm gonna try one for the brush country I live in in central Texas. I'll aim this lever at the feral dogs, hogs, deer, and (rumored) cougars around here for awhile just to see what they think about this thumper when I do my part. This and my .45LC SA loaded with Marshall's LBT WFN or LFN bullets would be some mighty fine medicine to apply where needed!!

Before I started reloading, I focused on cartridges that were readily available in the local gun stores. While still a concern for a long term SHTF situation (like New Orleans with supplies basically being unavailable), those problems are somewhat remedied by my ability to just pack up my toys, and go deeper into the brush if needed. And, the straight walled brass is incredibly flexible in what can become a projectile. As long as I have powder and primers, I could get real creative in making cartridges if needed.

And it illustrates why , when all of the above are kept strictly , " apples-to-apples " , and strictly within the 300 to 400 Gr. weight range ; --- the .444 is a better killer on Big-Game , ( via it's superior S.D. and penetration ! ).Patently false, or I'd actually like to see you demonstrate it. When you do an "apples to apples" comparison by keeping sectional density constant and loading each to their potential in Marlin lever guns with bullets of similar configuration and construction, the 45-70 Gov't will penetrate at least as well as the 444 Marlin and deliver significantly more energy to the target. Even in bullets of equal weight it is as likely as not that the greater power offered by the 45-70 Gov't will more than make up for a lower sectional density number.


444 Marlin
.431" 405 grain hardcast bullet, SD .311
1850 fps
Energy - 3079 ft. lbs.

45-70 Gov't
.460" 460 grain hardcast bullet, SD .311
1850 fps
Energy - 3497 ft. lbs.

Given equal sectional density the 45-70 Gov't exhibits 14 percent more energy than the 444 Marlin. Hence, greater penetration and killing power.



444 Marlin
.431" 405 grain hardcast bullet, SD .311
1850 fps
Energy - 3079 ft. lbs.

45-70 Gov't
.460" 405 grain hardcast bullet, SD .273
2050 fps
Energy - 3780 ft. lbs.

Given equal bullet weight the 45-70 Gov't exhibits 23 percent more energy and 14 percent less sectional density than the 444 Marlin.


There you go again, trying to limit the 45-70 in an attempt to make the 444 Marlin seem to be its superior. Sorry, its likely one isn't better than the other; they're just different.

Comparing a 405gr load in the 45-70 @ 2050 to a 405gr load in the .444 @ 1850 is what I call a biased point of view no matter how you look at it, cut it, or want to call it. It makes about as much sense as a football bat. Sectional Density is used not only as a number to help describe how well a projectile will penetrate, but also help to fairly compare projectiles of different calibers on a somewhat level playing feild. So comparing a 45-70 as loaded with the above 405gr bullet @2050fps will get you 3780 ft.lbs.
How can you compare that to the 405gr .444 load when they no longer have the same S.D. ( biased comparison)
A .444 with a 355gr bullet will have roughly the same S.D. as the 405gr .458 bullet.
Started @ the same 2050 fps you will have 3313 ft. lbs.( a load taken from pt 3 of 444 series)

So the 45-70 has 467 more ft lbs at the muzzle than the .444, big deal tell us what animal in North America is going to tell the difference?, 467ft lbs aint that much of a difference. There is no question that a 45-70 will throw a bullet of the same weight faster than the .444. However when comparisons are made you need to compare projectiles of different calibers with like Sectional Densities.
Shooting a 355 bullet from a .444 @ 2050fps is like the 45-70 shooting the 405gr bullet @ 2050fps. However the shooter is going to notice the difference when he starts flinching at the bench and throwing his shots because the 45-70 launching the 405gr bullet @ 2050fps will recoil more than the .444 with the 355gr bullet at the same speed. In the end the animal will be just as dead with either cartridge so loaded, and both calibers will remain a little diferent than the other.

I would like to see the pressure of the loads that can make a 405 gr bullet fly 2050 fps out of a 45-70 and 1850 fps out of a 444 Marlin.
I can belive that the loads is safe in a single shot rifle with long oal, but in a marlin, with 2.550 oal?
Ok, maby with a 30 in testbarrel.

Just a quick question.....

Why do I keep seeing the phrase: "More powder gives you more recoil"?

I have loaded 45 Colt with the same powder as an equivelant 44 Magnum (same bullet weight) and experienced less recoil and less pressure with the 45 Colt (which has more powder capacity) at velocities within 30-40 FPS of each other. During this test (I have a good friend with a Bisley in 44 Magnum with a 7.5 inch barrel, which should actually reduce recoil) I had a hotter load (we're working with 250 grain bullets here) that shot out about 300 FPS faster, and the recoil was pretty close to the same.

I'm not defending any cartridge here (infact, I'd go with a 416 Rigby or 458 Lott if I wanted big bore rifle) but I find a certain fact which I see no basis for floating around, and am curious as to why it is considered as such.

Thank you

Of the above loads with the 405 grain bullets:

444 Marlin
Energy: 3077
Momentum: 107
Taylor KO: 46

45-70
Energy: 3778
Momentum: 118
Taylor KO: 54

With that load, according to the Taylor KO formula, which uses non-expanding bullets, the 45-70 is a clear winner.

Check it out, put your loads in, see what you get.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

--- REPLY TO JACKFISH :

The .444 , and the .45-70 / .450M , --- are very similar Cartridges , in most aspects of their design . --- Both are Big-Bores , -- .0 29 in. difference in caliber , -- relatively straight sided case .

--- Seems to me the big , " difference " , that we're discussing , has to always be tied to that .029 difference in Caliber .

If we hold Sectional Density constant , -- then the .45-70 types will always have a significantly heavier bullet .

If you hold S.D. constant , between the two , -- the .45-70's will look better in terms of Energy , because it's throwing a heavier bullet , at any given velocity ; --- but this doesn't really give you any useable comparison between the two .

If you hold Bullet weight and Velocity constant , -- the .444 will always have more Sectional Density , -- and therefore , penetrate better , -- given equally tuned bullet construction .

It seems to me that the more variable factors you hold constant , -- the more of a valid comparison you tend to have .

It also seems to me , that if you want to compare two , very similar , cartridge designs ; -- where the main difference is .029 inches in diameter , ( two point nine little hundredths :p ) .

Then , according to common sense , -- the main thing you want to know is what will the effect on a Big-Game animal be when you tag it with bullets of the same Weight , -- and at the same velocity . ---- Only then will you know what the real difference is at the target in terms of terminal wound ballistics . ----- And only then can you compare the effect of that .029 inch difference in Caliber .

And it's also very simple to understand that the one with the superior S.D. will give you more penetration potential , and thus better killing , or stopping power , ( especially on large tough animals ) .

No one disputes that the .45-70 types are a bigger hammer on the top end . --- When the .429 bullets get too long for the barrel twist , ( at either 1 in 38 , or 1 in 20 inches ) , --- then the .45-70 clearly takes over and becomes the more powerful cartridge in terms of greater possible bullet weight , and therefore greater killing or stopping power .

Seems very clear and simple , --- don't see a basis for argument ?


------------ Regards , --- MMCOUGAR .

If you hold Bullet weight and Velocity constant , -- the .444 will always have more Sectional Density , -- and therefore , penetrate better , -- given equally tuned bullet construction .
So, you are then admitting that you have to limit the potential of the 45-70 to be able to get your desired result of allowing the 444 Marlin loaded to its potential your imagined superiority. Why do you insist limiting the 45-70 to compare it to the 444 Marlin? It seems the appropriate comparison is both at their potential. That is why you will find all my comparisons so formulated. But, if you feel the need to limit the 45-70 in an attempt to get us to believe the 444 Marlin is better, go ahead. Just don't expect anyone who actually thinks about it to believe it. As someone has said here, what game animal in North America is going to know the difference when hit with either using adequate bullets and good shot placement? As for the increased recoil the 45-70 presents, I have always recognized that. But, since its been some time since I had a 444 it is a non-issue to me. It probably is an issue with others. One comment on that though: If you are doing all or most of your shooting at the bench, you ain't getting the practice you need. There are several devices available that work really well to allow bench time with heavy kickers, the rest of the time shooting from field positions one usually notices recoil a lot less.

Jackfish , -- IMHO , --- It's not a matter of limiting , or not limiting .

There are both field and shooter-preference areas where the .444 will serve specific needs better than the .45-70 types .

And , there are areas where the .45-70 types will serve specific needs better . --- End of debate , as far as I'm concerned .

I've been very interested in the .444/.45-70 comparison , because I was researching , prior to buying my first Big-Bore marlin .

I gave my observations and the reasons I ended up buying the .444 XLR , -- as input to the threads .

Physics and Ballistics dont lie , and they are highly relative . -- Hopefully , they guide our decisions to a more satisfactory outcome . But an individual's interpretations , can take the info. to truth , or misconception .

Hope I havn't given the impression that I'm , "limiting" the .45-70 . ---

-- I've repeated , often , that the cartridge excells in power on the top-end of the power range . -- I've also responded to your advocacy that comparison is gained when you hold Sec. Density constant ; -- and I've admitted freely that when you do so , -- the .45-70 will always push the heavier bullet , and so benefit from the downrange effect .

I've mentioned in other threads (?) , that I already own a short barrelled .458 Win. -- so I , personally , don't need the top-end of the .45-70 . . -- I've stated that having a .458 was a contributing factor to my choice of .444 .

I'm not " limiting the potential of the .45-70 " ; --- facts is facts . I think I've given the old warhorse plenty of due .

I also don't believe that I've cherry-picked facts to favor the .444 in a biased way . --- I freely acknowledge that if I didn't have a .458 Win. --- I would have chosen a .45-70 type chambering .

You insist on comparing the two in terms of being " Loaded to their potential " --- this , is another way of citing the superiority of .45-70 on the top-end , ( i.e , maximum loadings with bullets too long and heavy for the .444 to handle ) . --- Agreed !

But there , are , areas in which the .444 excells , ( see my above posts ) ; -- and , with full respect , I wonder why you are , ( apparently ) , so reluctant to recognize them . --- I have noticed that you don't deal with my points directly , -- but rather , -- restate your own .

I don't mean to patronize you in any sense , -- ( in fact I know that your grasp of .45-70 ballistics is better than mine ) ; -- but I do believe that the focus , here , should be the imparting of info. to the readers , -- who might be trying to decide between .444 and .45-70 .

As to your point about the Game Animal not caring what hits it , --- I do disagree , -- predicated on a belief that quick- humane kills are of great importance . --- Logically , you could say that if the Game was killed quickly with a head shot from a .22 LR , it wouldn't know the difference either ! --- So the point , ( in this discussion ) , avoids a comparison , rather than contributing to it .

----------------- Regards , -------- MMCOUGAR .

Hi there!I am buckwalka

to say that the .44 mag' is "underpowered by the rest of them" is something of a misconception. sure, it's no .45-70 as far as "stopper" cartridges are concerned. but it's: generally easier to load for target-grade accuracy; got a broad choice of bullets in both jacketed and cast; capable out of a 7 1/2" revolver to move a 320 gr' hardcast bullet to approx' 1400 fps (per j.d. jones who sold the molds) which can penetrate the frontal plate on an elephants skull; able to handle at least 95% of all the scenarios you can conjure up while hunting in close quarters in north america.

the way i see it, many times the .45-70 is overkill. it's just not needed for deer, black bear, elk, or moose under most conditions. yes, it is certaily adequate. it's just so much more than is needed...

if the .44 mag' is loaded to the 40,000 cup level that it can safely handle it is capable of much more than many of today's shooters seem to understand.

take care,
buckwalka

JMHO, If you want to shoot a 405gr bullet use the 45-70, it was made for such a thing. The 444 is not a good 405gr rifle. Not all 444's can handle the 405gr bullets, you need the 1-20 twist or faster, and too much work must be done to get it to shoot the 405's, you just dont cram a long .432 405gr bullet into a tapered 444 case.
I'm a 444 junkie but jacketed bullets of 350grains and bigger belong to the realm of the 450/45-70.

.................................................. .......................Marko

Hi there!I am buckwalka

If the decision was mine, and I lived anywhere in the lower 48 States I'd go with the .44 mag' -- handloaded -- over the .45-70 any day. The price of brass, the loads assembled from a pound of powder, the excellent quality available in .44 mag' diameter projectiles, and the easier recoil in spite of all that power would make it an easy decision for me.

If I hunted 'brownies' in Alaska I might go with the .45-70, but not necessarily since either cartridge is coming out of a Marlin. The .44 mag' is not a miracle of ballistics, but it is a small-packaged killer all out of proportion to its size and its calculated abilities.

The right bullet and velocity is all you need to handle anything in the Western Hemisphere with a .44!

Take care.

buckwalka

Hi there!I am buckwalka

If the decision was mine, and I lived anywhere in the lower 48 States I'd go with the .44 mag' -- handloaded -- over the .45-70 any day. The price of brass, the loads assembled from a pound of powder, the excellent quality available in .44 mag' diameter projectiles, and the easier recoil in spite of all that power would make it an easy decision for me.

If I hunted 'brownies' in Alaska I might go with the .45-70, but not necessarily since either cartridge is coming out of a Marlin. The .44 mag' is not a miracle of ballistics, but it is a small-packaged killer all out of proportion to its size and its calculated abilities.

The right bullet and velocity is all you need to handle anything in the Western Hemisphere with a .44!

Take care.

buckwalkaThe decision isn't yours, and was presented as a choice between the 45-70 Gov't or 444 Marlin.

Hi there!I am buckwalka

I'd go with a .44 magnum. No kidding. Read Randy Garrett's website (spelling correct ?) and see what he gets out of a .44 mag' ! It's an amazing cartridge with heavy bullets out of a handgun, and it's even more out of a 22" barrel.

The .45 calibers will hit harder, but the recoil will be worse and there are so many who just can't handle that. With some of us the recoil becomes more of a problem as we get older; but it's a problem with a number of the young guys as well.

Larry Kelly and J. D. Jones proved long ago that the .44 mag' was a giant killer.......and it still is.

Good luck and I will go over this in detail sometime soon with you Jackfish ;)

Take care all,
buckwalka

That's what recoil pads are for, speaking as one of the older guys at 50. My eyes are more of an issue at my age than recoil. The 45/70 might leave a few bruises on my shoulder w/o the pad, but well worth it! That is why I have a 30-30, also.

Good luck and I will go over this in detail sometime soon with you Jackfish ;)

Take care all,
buckwalkaDon't bother, I don't believe you have much information that can enlighten me. If you want to go over it in detail, start a new thread so you can at least remain on topic.

I have neither, but would like to get a big bore lever gun. It would be used for hunting deer in the woods and possibly as a carry gun in Alaska. I will likely want a short barrel and I am not particularly recoil sensitive. I reload. What advantages does each cartridge possess?


Lets put this into perspective and make a clear understanding on what the originally post is about, hunting medium and large game, some of which is in Alaska.

I really don’t think there is any room for debate. Flat out, the 45/70 pushes a bigger bullet faster. Why is that important?

Here, this is why I chose the 45/70.

http://mountainsurvival.com/news_articles/bearattack.html

This particular situation took place on an island that I actually hunt on in Alaska. It doesn’t matter where you are. When you are walking quietly through the woods up here, you have a strong potential to run into a larger than life Brown Bear.

The 45/70 may be overkill, but I would rather ruin a little meat than be food.

I think this thread has been whipped to death. It's done.