Due to the fact that I will probably only use this rifle a few times, I've decided upon a bolt action; CRF; but what caliber: 375 H&H, 416 Rigby or 458 Lott. Keep in mind the cost of a box of 20 "premium" bullets runs around $159-$169 per box for the latter two calibers. That's just a problem I deal with as I do not reload anymore. The #1 game animal will be Cape Buffalo. Thanks in advance for any advice or opinions. grayghost

I've never hunted Africa. That being said, my brother just got back from Botswana on a hunt for Cape Buffalo. He took a .375 H&H. He said when he does it again, he will use a .416 Rigby or a .458 Lott. The .375 worked just fine, mind you, good bullets and a good hit. His advice is to use the most gun you can handle "accurately". If you can shoot the 100#+ recoil of the .416 or the .458, do it. Just don't go below the .375 H&H, the legal minimum there. He also recomends the 300 grain softpoint, followed up by 300 grain solids. The new 350 grain bullets would be more of a good thing.

I think it would depend if you were considering hunting anything larger than Cape Buff (like Elephant, Rhino, Hippo). If so, I'd go with the Lott, if not, I'd stick with the 416. I've done neither, so take my advice with a grain of salt. My PH used a Win M70 in 416 Remington Magnum. He bought it when he was doing elephant culls for the Zim government in the Campfire and Park areas.

I've shot the Rigby and the Lott. If the rifle fits you and has the right amount of heft, both are not too bad in recoil. I imagine if you hot rodded either of them it could get painful real quick.

Just depends on the circumstances. I like my 375 just because I can shoot it so well. I will someday find a right priced doublt in .470, but until then, just can't seem to be happy with anything else. Shot a buddies .416 Rem and just couldn't shoot it like I can my .375. Its not that the recoil is an issue, I think I am just used to my Dakota. I'll take a lesser powered gun that I can hit an idex card with offhand than a more powerful one that I can only hit a pizza box with.

This is assuming of course that you are going to be backed up by a PH (which unless you are the PH, you should and had better be). If you are doing the back-up, my PH carries a Blazer S2 in 500 NE. He modified the sights because the factory sights were "too **** big" in his opinion.

What an interesting discussion. At this stage of my life my ownly African hunting will be done by sharing others. I've sure heard a lot of good things said about the 416. I do know how well the 375 works on Alaskan game.

I don't think that ammo prices would be a problem considering the cost of an African hunt. Boy what an adventure.

Thanks for the advice guys. I believe I will stay with the .375 choice. Recoil is a consideration as is shot placement on a follow up shot, so that being said I think the .375 would be a good choice for me. Federal is loading some quality bullets for the larger bores this year, costly but proven performance. Larger plains game in the bush is another possibility; Eland, Sable and Kudu so the choice that remains is open sights versus a scope. If I go with a scope I will mount a 2x7 Leupold on it. Otherwise I'll just keep them open. I practice a lot with open sights on my pellet gun. May seem silly to some but it really keeps me up to par on moving targets. Good hunting, grayghost

I love my 375 , BUT , with 10 buff under my belt , my advice ( and I aint alone here ) is the largest caliber you can shoot with a big magazine to boot ..

I would consider any of the 416's a great minimum caliber , the Lott is where its at , if you can handle it ..

The 375 is good , but , when things go wrong , its not so good ..

375H&H mag mate,nothing better

In my experience, the .416 Rem. Mag. is perfect for Buff (and Hippo, and large Bears).The .375 H&H is adequate. The .416 Rigby is heavy, the brass and dies are quite expensive compared to the Rem. version, and it offers no improvement in performance over the Rem. version.

Not to get off the topic, but has the 416 Rem lost popularity? It seems I hear less about that round today.

Most hunters I knew in Africa liked the 416 Rem because it has a managable recoil and with a 400 grain, it will get the job done. That would be my choice. I once have a very nice custom made 416 and did use it with 350 grain Swift A-Frame and it was about as flat as a 375 with a 300 grain bullet.

I do know men that hunt over there and work as guides and outfiters who like the 458 Lott and bigger numbers, but they are backing up paying hunters and used to shooting these big rifles.

If you are going to shoot large plains game, the 375 is all you need, but for the big stuff the 458 makes sense and if you don't own one, you can rent one.

First off as I said above , I love my 375 ..
In my experience the 416 offers a decidedly noticeable difference on impact over the 375 .. All the 416's except for the Weatherby are equal performance wise ..
The Lott is in a class by itself , IMO the best performance with a reasonable cost in rifle and ammunition .. But when you're dealing with your life and the lives of others the cost should be secondary ..
The 460 is fantastic IF you have a great bullet , get rid of the brake , and get rid of that humpback stock , and put a proper DG stock in its place ..
We could nit pick each one to death , but if you caint recover and have a quick second or third shot , doesnt much matter ..
The ideal is a double that fits you properly ..

Wasn't there a great quote by one of the famous ivory hunters about "First, use enough gun"??
In my completely unexperienced in dangerous game opinion, it would depend on the PH that was backing me up.
A 375 is enough, but a bad hit could get you hurt. I thought I've read that more folks get hurt from cape buffalo than any of the other african species?
Also, I thought that many african countries have a minimum of 40 cal limit?? Maybe that was for elephant and rhino.

I believe it was Robert Ruark or Pondoro Taylor who said "Once you have been amongst them , there is no such thing as to much gun " ..
You cant depend on the PH , one of my buffs nearly got me kilt cause my first shot was off , and he was on us quick , and the PH didnt back me up when he should have , fortunately I got off the second shot that turned the critter ..
That is very likely that more people are hurt by buffs , for two reasons , one they are plentiful and two they are the cheepest DG hunting available ..
Some may have a 40 minimum , the 375 was made a minimum decades ago by politicians who didnt know better , and being political , it's hard to change , and I think many have second thoughts about the 375 minimum ..
The 375 is good when things go right , but when things go wrong the 375 is a problem ..

Hey hey , yep that was my first buff hunt , what a way to start .. I complained , got another free hunt the next year , my only cost was airfare .. Used the company owner as the PH , and found out the one that I was with the previous year was no longer there , seems I wasnt the first or last to have a problem with him ..
Practice ?? Oh man , all I did for months on end going into each trip .. I think that is probably the one thing that gets people into more trouble than anything else .. They dont , or not enuff ..
Dont skimp on bullets ( whats $2 or more on a very expensive hunt ) , they're the cheepest part of the hunt anyway you add it up ..
I wouldnt hesitate to use the 375 , but I prefer something with a bit more punch ..
If you use a premium soft as the first shot , then that solves a lot of problems .. Thats still an issue lots have problems with ..
Every shot is different and each critter reacts different .. I have seen both extremes .. I have seen a buff drop in his tracks to one well placed 375 , and seen one soak up 5 solids from a 600 , all well placed shots ..

Grayghost is in Africa right now, I believe. I'm sure we all look forward to his report on his return.

Definently the .375 H&H, it is a good "all around" caliber for Africa

Not to get off the topic, but has the 416 Rem lost popularity? It seems I hear less about that round today.

Most hunters I knew in Africa liked the 416 Rem because it has a managable recoil and with a 400 grain, it will get the job done. That would be my choice. I once have a very nice custom made 416 and did use it with 350 grain Swift A-Frame and it was about as flat as a 375 with a 300 grain bullet.

I do know men that hunt over there and work as guides and outfiters who like the 458 Lott and bigger numbers, but they are backing up paying hunters and used to shooting these big rifles.

If you are going to shoot large plains game, the 375 is all you need, but for the big stuff the 458 makes sense and if you don't own one, you can rent one.


i read an article that stated the 416 rem had problems feeding in the higher temperatures due to higher chamber pressures , the rigby didnt have those problems. much lower pressures.

i read an article that stated the 416 rem had problems feeding in the higher temperatures due to higher chamber pressures , the rigby didnt have those problems. much lower pressures.
The PH I had when I hunted in Zim was a subject of that article, written by Don Heath, Zimbabwe Professional Hunter's Examiner. What the PH said, and he was one of only two that passed the practical when there was miserable failure on many firearms and ammunition during that exam, was most of the student PH's had left their ammunition sitting on the dashboard or otherwise fully exposed to sun, during the hottest days in the Zambezi Valley in October with temps regularly reaching 120*F. The low pressure Rigby could take that, but the high pressure Rem Mag went past the redline. The PH that passed, Steve Brewer, was using a 416 Rem Mag, but knew enough to shield his ammunition from the sun and keep in shaded. He didn't have any problems. He did have to back up another student PH on a charging elephant during the practical whose rifle failed.

Another one of those cartridges that you might be pushing the limits on, but if you take careful considerations, it should work fine. October in the Zambezi doesn't sound like fun to me, so I believe I'll stay away then... :D Alaskans don't do well when temps get that hot. I was about to melt when temps got over 100*F when I was there in September. I thought my brain was going to boil. Although, I might give it a go to hunt the big tuskers... My 500 Jeffery is a low pressure round, like the Rigby. ;)

I'm back from Zim and **** it was hot! 100-110 degree's by noon most days. I posted on an earlier thread the super Chobe Bushbuck I was fortunate enough to take, so in this thread I will post a pic of the 5 year old Lion I was able to dart. This male had been caught in a wire snare and carried a nasty wound on his neck. It was septic and full of screw worm. I got to dart him and now he resides in a Lion conservation program (private park). You can't imagine how loud a Lion's rumbling growl is...you have to hear it to believe it. I was amoungst Elephant, Cape Buffalo, Lion, Sable and all the common plains game as well as waterfowl and upland birds. Shot some Egyptian Geese, Knob Bill Duck (actually a goose species) and Spurwing Goose. Several lakes have Largemouth Bass topping 13 pounds and growing fast. I saw Victoria Falls, Matetsi Game Units 1-6, Matabeliland, Gwai, Masvingo, Gwana; we covered about 3,000 miles in two weeks. One area has the largest population of Leopard on earth. Another has been running 100% on Leopard over bait (I hope to go next year). I took Zebra, Bushbuck and Waterbuck. Not a lot of game but this trip was mostly about scouting hunting concessions, conservancies and units. February is too hot! Wait until May when it cools off. As for my gun question: I spent two weeks with a PH with 29 years of professional hunting experience, and he sold me on the .416 Remington; what a number of you mentioned and or recommended. His favorite hunt is for Elephant, and the 400 grain bullet is good medicine for Elephant. Now I'm back to deciding which brand of .416 Rem. Decisions, decisions. Thanks to all of you for your advice and opinions. I appreciate them all. I will keep you posted. Good hunting, grayghost

Here's the link to PH practical where numerous firearms and cartridges didn't come out very well...
http://www.african-hunter.com/lessons_learned.htm

Don was used to the Mauser flip over safety, I think if you search the African Hunter website, you can find where he retracted his statement about the Winchester M70 safety. I know for someone with hands like mine (rather small) and grew up shooting a right-side safety rifle, there really isn't an issue with an M70 safety. Give me a safety like on the CZ, I would have some serious problems, though...

Thanks for the article Alyeska. It was very interesting, especially the part about some of the ammo problems with the .416 Rem. More to ponder over but sometimes I think problems can be solved with a visit to one's Gunsmith and getting very familiar with your rifle. My mind is more open now as I search for the "one" DG rifle. Good hunting, grayghost

Well, as I stated before guys, the PH I had was using a Winchester M70 in 416 Rem Mag and was 1 of only 2 that passed the practical that year. He's still using the same rifle and ammo today. To qualify to take the practical, he worked for the Zim Parks culling elephants and had a barge load under his belt...

I guess if you don't hotroad it and pay attention to where you keep your ammo, it should work fine. The one problem Steve was having was staying supplied with ammunition in Zimbabwe. The 416's aren't found easily in Zim, though these days nothing is found easily in Zim... :(

Yeah, Zimbabwe's in a mess. You'd think there would be some super deals in the hunting industry due to the 1US to 5,000 Zim $, but it's business as usual and maybe you get your trophies. Shopping however is another deal. Great buys can be had everywhere.

Yeah, Zimbabwe's in a mess. You'd think there would be some super deals in the hunting industry due to the 1US to 5,000 Zim $, but it's business as usual and maybe you get your trophies. Shopping however is another deal. Great buys can be had everywhere.
1USD is about 500,000Zim $ now, isn't it? It was 250K Zim while I was there in 2005. Unfortunately, inflation doesn't guarantee great deals. It just means you need a suitcase to carry around enough currency to conduct business if there is any business to conduct or petrol to get there...

Seriously, How would it be to live over there? How much change since 1999? Can hunters still keep rifles and shotguns on their property?

I honestly believe Zimbabwe is headed to serious civil unrest, when is the question. Right now is probably still okay for visit, I'd book a hunt now. As for a foreigner relocating to live, probably not a good idea. Somewhere like Botswana or Mozambique would be amiable. RSA is starting to feel some pains. Namibia has expressed an interest to reappropriate farms as Zim has, although at government determined prices. Zim just took the farms without compensation the last time around. The first round of seizures, there was government determined compensation, though it widely thought none were at market value.

The problem with Mozambique is that it is a communist run government, what government that does exist.

Currently, only CAR has our Gov'ts warning to travelers. But Zim is at the boiling point as evidenced by last weeks Police actions. Sad thing is the people there are good people, and friendly towards hunting.

CAR, Sudan, and a few others that offer hunting on the "fringe" and speciality species do have travel warnings, or at least they did a few months ago. I'm sure Sudan still does. When Ethiopia recently had their dustup with Somalia there were warnings about portions of their country, though it was widely believed the problems were all located outside of Ethiopia, which is a world class hunting destination. Burkina Faso routinely has travel advisories as well...

Be careful when booking in countries on the fringe of tourism trade in Africa or that politically unstable, but if proper precautions are taken, they can provide some fantastic experiences. I would only book with the booking agents stateside and largest most secure outfits in those countries. Check with the U.S. State Department to make sure no individuals principle in the organizations are listed on the listed banned to do business with for U.S. citizens.

[QUOTE=Charshooter]Not to get off the topic, but has the 416 Rem lost popularity? It seems I hear less about that round today.

i read an article comparing 416 rem and rigby. almost identicle in performance but the rem generates 50-60% more chamber pressure and in hot weather can cause extraction problems due to this. dont think that would be good in a crisis situation

Interesting point Bob. I'm set to shoot the Rigby soon so I'll see how I like it. May go that route in a CZ. Good hunting, grayghost

The pressure issue is why many of the European rounds remain very popular .. They were all designed with the high temperature and consequent pressure issues in mind ..
Only issue with the big cases is you usually lose one or two rounds in mag capacity unless you spend some big bucks to open up the stock and mag well ..
I have the CZ in a Lott , is probably the best deal going ina DG rifle at the moment ..

I think it would depend if you were considering hunting anything larger than Cape Buff (like Elephant, Rhino, Hippo). If so, I'd go with the Lott, if not, I'd stick with the 416. I've done neither, so take my advice with a grain of salt. My PH used a Win M70 in 416 Remington Magnum. He bought it when he was doing elephant culls for the Zim government in the Campfire and Park areas.

I've shot the Rigby and the Lott. If the rifle fits you and has the right amount of heft, both are not too bad in recoil. I imagine if you hot rodded either of them it could get painful real quick.


A 375 in the hands of a man who is not afraid of his rifle, is thoroughly familiar with his rifle and thus a good shot and who is experienced at shooting at wild animals will have no problems in dropping anything in Africa - unless the DG he is shooting at didn't read the same book!:) The arguments can go on from now to Doomsday about the right cartridge or rifle (or combination) but it all comes back to good nerves, bullet placement - and good luck that the bullet drops him.

I think it all comes down to each man’s experience. If I had one last trip to Africa in me, I would take a 375 for the heavy stuff, a 300 for plains game and my little 260 for all the light plains game.

If I hunted regularly in Africa, then I would have to think out if I wanted a 416 Remington, a cartridge I very much like, or a bigger number, such as the 458 Lott. It is hard to say which I would choose when I have not to make the choice. I like the 416 Remington much more than the Lott from past shooting experience.

I know some professional hunters use something even bigger, such as a 475 or 500, what their reason is I have never fully discussed or I nay have discussed and forgotten,

My point is to back the idea the a 375 would be adequate, if one is as the above poster has described in regards to ability, yet some are not and overall, I would favor the 416 Remington for several good reasons.

[QUOTE=have second thoughts about the 375 minimum ..
The 375 is good when things go right , but when things go wrong the 375 is a problem ..[/QUOTE]


I am not really disputing much of what you have said in several posts about the 375. I will say that the cartridge was developed by Holland & Holland, a name to conjure with in 1912 (when the cartridge came out) and still a respected name. Politicians had nothing to do with adoption of the 375 H&H as a "minimum" caliber and the very word "minimum" is misleading. It suggests that the cartridge doesn't stand on its own merits but is simply a marker for what is allowable. In fact, the 375 H&H is a favorite of PHs who are culling elephant herds because of its accuracy at longer ranges than the usual "double" cartridges. Its reputation for penetration is undiminished to this day. If bullet placement is the key then a shooter using a rifle he is not afraid of has an edge -and the 375 H&H fits the bill. These factors are important.

Some countries in Africa require a minimum of .40 calibre for dangerous game. I use a .416 Rigby in a CZ; shoots great.

Kudu40


Due to the fact that I will probably only use this rifle a few times, I've decided upon a bolt action; CRF; but what caliber: 375 H&H, 416 Rigby or 458 Lott. Keep in mind the cost of a box of 20 "premium" bullets runs around $159-$169 per box for the latter two calibers. That's just a problem I deal with as I do not reload anymore. The #1 game animal will be Cape Buffalo. Thanks in advance for any advice or opinions. grayghost

Some countries in Africa require a minimum of .40 calibre for dangerous game. I use a .416 Rigby in a CZ; shoots great.

Kudu40


Frankly I'm not aware of any country in Africa that requires a minimum of .40 calibre for DG. Most specify the 375 H &H as the minimum. For awhile some years back, Zimbabwe, I believe, was considering a proposal for use of the 338 Win on "thin skinned" DG as lion. (I don't recall what was the final outcome of that.) It would be interesting to see what countries have set a .40 calibre as a minimum.

I did some checking and you are right. I was using old information from 20 to 25 years ago when I first fell in love with Africa. Sorry for the bad information, however, I would not want to be using the minimum. I believe it was Robert Ruark that said "use enough gun" and as far as my life is concerned, I want more than the minimum.
Good luck,

Kudu40



Frankly I'm not aware of any country in Africa that requires a minimum of .40 calibre for DG. Most specify the 375 H &H as the minimum. For awhile some years back, Zimbabwe, I believe, was considering a proposal for use of the 338 Win on "thin skinned" DG as lion. (I don't recall what was the final outcome of that.) It would be interesting to see what countries have set a .40 calibre as a minimum.

Kudu 40:

It's been my experience in a fairly long life that the guy who says he was wrong - is not often wrong. You are a gentleman, sir!

Your other remarks about using a rifle above the "minimum" where your life is concerned - I wholeheartedly agree. My only condition is that you can shoot as well with them as with the "minimum". If not ( and each guy's personal honesty will give him the answer - meaning no eyelid flutters or tensing up) then I say the 375 H&H stands on its own as a worthy DG cartridge and no one is committing suicide by using it against any kind of DG -who knows how to shoot it well. ( Ever notice how calibers can vary in terms of felt recoil? I found the 416 Rigby a bit unpleasant. I found the 470 N.E. to be just like a 375 in terms of felt recoil - sure, the 470 "pushed" somewhat more but not unpleasantly so. { I shot a 7mm Rem.Mag once and found it rattling my backteeth. Fact.} :)

Anyway, best of luck with whatever you use.

i like the 416 rem. caliber for buffalo and elephant. this cartridge also has good versatility, especially for the handloader. i have used the 375 h&h and the 9.3 brenneke as well but stick to the larger calibers and condition yourself to shoot them well!

I am brand new to this forum and this is my first post.

However I am a third generation Game farmer and have been hunting African Game for the past 30 odd years. I have also giuded several local and foreighn hunters while after all kinds of game.

My Advice on this question is the 375 H&H.
1) Can you REALLY handle the recoil of anything heavyer? Personally i like it when a foreign client use a 375 or at most one of the .400's The recoil is not that hard and it generally makes the hunter more acurate than with a Heavyer (416/458) gun. As the one guy remarked - a milder bullet placed good is better than a very powerfull bullet placed bad.

2) Availabliity of Ammo. You will be able to get 375 H&H ammo in any gunshop. The other two you will really suffer to find any. Remember Things do get lost between the cusoms -Aircraft and again customs. If that happens with any of the other two you are basically stuffed....(Except for the 458 win Mag which is also very common this side)

3) the 375 also have some edge over the other two when it comes to effective distance - If you plan to use it for Plains game as well you can comfotably get 150m plus shots with lighter bullets - which you cant do with the heavyer stuff.

4) dont you worry about stopping a charge - Leave that for the PH to do - that is why he is there and why he will carry a rifle siutable for the job - you just worry in getting a counting first shot in - refer to 1 above.


Last remark - One of the guys here said that you should use a 375 with softs on Buff - PLEASE DONT - you will end up being that brown stuff oozing from between the Buff's hooves.
ONLY USE SOLIDS ON BUFF especially on a 375 H&H.

I dont know if I'm the one who said it about softs on buffs or not , but my first round is a soft followed by solids .. And for me ( any many others ) it has worked quite well ..

I dont have anything against the 375 , as I said I love mine , but me personally , I feel any of the 416's are a much better choice for buffs ..

The biggest issue is many dont practice enuff with whatever they use regardless of caliber ..

Well for a one gun trip I would not hesitate to take the .375. If buff is the primary animal then I would go for the .458 Lott. Big holes in buff are a good thing and you can use regular .458 Win Mag ammo in a Lott if need be.

Most shooters from North America never get enough practice with the big bores however, to become very good with them and that is why the .375 is a good pick because most can learn to handle them. While I like some of the .416's and they are certainly better for buff than the .375...............the .375 is still superior for the one gun safari when plains game is also involved and it is still a bit easier for most to learn to handle the recoil than a .416 is. The big 350 grain bullets in the .375 are the ticket for buff.

But.......that's just my opinion and what the **** do I know. :)

I am not a DG hunter but I was wondering what do you think of the 375 ruger ammo that is out now? I am a ruger rifle fan I am saddened that the rifle didn't make the DG cut :(

Deadbait it is a .375....minimum. Hey, don't sweat it, the guys that shoot DG can't agree, but bottom line is that any .375 is the minimum. Personally I do not like the Ruger rifles in the ne chambering...but that is just me. Period. Others do.

not sure where this seemingly 'absolute minimum' 375 for DG came from. that is a myth!
zimbabwe regulations state 9.3mm minimum for elephant, buffalo, hippo and rhino.
7mm is the minimum for lion, leopard, eland, croc, giraffe, etc.
energy figures for minimums are expressed in kilojoules.
my personal experience is 9.3X64 and 375 are marginal for the large animals. i'm more comfortable with the 416's. 9.3X64, 375's and 338's are perfect for lion and the 308 win. or even the 270 win. is completely adequete for leopard.
lets see what kind of action that stirs up!
by the way, the most impotant part of all this is putting a quality bullet in the right place! if you can find any of the discontinued(sad day for african hunters) speer AGS bullets, they may be the best choice!

richard..................that is a good point. I know the first time I went to Zim I was told on paper that it was the minimum and of course we see it bantied around all the time. I believe i have literature from some companies in other countries around here that says it is the minimum as well. I will just have to find it. But, having said that..............I have never talked to a PH yet that will not let a guy use a 9.3.

As for your leopard comment..........won't stir me up. They are not big kitties and those rounds with the right bullet will put them down fast. Heck they are not any bigger than our cougar.

I am not a DG hunter but I was wondering what do you think of the 375 ruger ammo that is out now? I am a ruger rifle fan I am saddened that the rifle didn't make the DG cut :(

There is a good article by Boddington in the latest issue of Rifleshooter magazine about the .375s (375 Ruger included). He had lots of praise for the new chambering. I owned a Ruger M77 in .300 Win Mag that was a fine rifle, but I now have a Winchester M70 in .300 Win Mag that I like too. I am in the planning stages for my first Buff hunt and I will most likely buy another M70 Classic in either .375 or .416. The only think I do not like about my current M70 Classic is the weight. It has the BOSS and a 26" barrel, so that thing weighs a ton!

Dan

boddington has a relationship with hornady that calls into question his objectivity. not to say this is'nt a good cartridge. proprietary and ammo is not readily avail. especially in africa!
if you're going to buy a gun to go buffalo hunting with, buy a 416. if you handload, this can be a very versatile weapon.
worried about recoil- at the range use a bag of shot or similar. shooting at game you won't even notice it if your head is where it should be.
stay away from muzzle brakes if you care about yours and anybody elses hearing.

Richard I could not agree more...............I HATE muzzlebeaks. I have hearing loss from a hunter I was guiding to indicate why.

I also am not a fan of the proprietary nature of the new Hornady/Ruger offerings. I have nothing against the cartridge, but I will stick with my old H&H.

As for the .416's........I have had a number of them. I am really thinking hard about another Taylor, all things considered.

There are no flies on the 9.3x64. I think the .416 based on the new Ruger case would work well, but as mentioned elsewhere, when and if they bring out a .416 Ruger the shoulder will not necessarily be the same as the wildcat. On the other hand I probably don't care enough to worry about that one way or the other. The two .416 Taylor's I had in the past shot very well, even with the belt. When I do it, it will be one or the other so that I can build it on a standard length action. First I have to find a good CRF stainless action and that is not proving to be to easy where I live.

The more I read the more i like this place!!

Now as for this gent:

" zimbabwe regulations state 9.3mm minimum for elephant, buffalo, hippo and rhino. -

As for legislated minimum - Guys that is as fliued as the waters of the Zambezi - Although there is a regulation that say 375 is the minimum - the 9.3x62 is listed as an exception. BUT not the 9.3x64 - why? Dont ask me I cant see the logic....

Also the 45-70 or 577/450 Martini Hendry does not make the cut with energy levels, but you are alowed to use them on private land as they are .458.....? what Logic is that?

It all boils down to the interpritation of the regulation and the size of bribe you offer the local game warden in some countries.

7mm is the minimum for lion, leopard, eland, croc, giraffe, etc. - I woun't - I also wount allow any client of mine to do so- it is possible but way to risky.
The 7mm mag's is good for Leopard, but there is other much better calibres for the job.
As for a croc - mate you take them with something like a 21" torpedo or a 100lb deapth charge. I have seen a guy shooting a croc in the head with a 9.3 and it swam away only to appear on the same sandbank the next day!!! Remember that thing is related to T-Rex, they dont die easy....

my personal experience is 9.3X64 and 375 are marginal for the large animals. I 100% agree with you - but the PH is there to provide the Back-up - and again my shot placement theory....

i'm more comfortable with the 416's.

9.3X64, 375's and 338's are perfect for lion - I agree


and the 308 win. or even the 270 win. is completely adequete for leopard. - again it is possible - but there are better tools for the job.....

Something that is not mentioned hewre is the Ethics of a fast one shot kill. It is possible to kill a elephant with a 303 british - is it ethical to first shoot it through the knees so that you can walk up to it and pump a whole magazine of 303 military ball into the head untill one manage to penitrate to the brain?

My main point here is that you should limit your chances of wounding to the abselout minimum. You should find your ideal balance of Accuracy vs. Power. you should be able to use your chosen rifle to the best of its abilities - and it the rifle's abilities is limited you should be big enough to put it down and take something bigger.

Basically - Ask your PH what he would consider the minimum. Any 9.3 with premium bullets is as good as a 375 with the same bullet. AGAIN shot placement counts and it is easyer to handle those two than a 458.....

Be careful; they may irritate the hippo's.

Which .416 are you refering to? The Rigby, or one of the others?

kudu40...........not sure which post and .416 comment you are refering to.

I have ahad two Rigby's, two .416 Taylor's, shot a .416 Remington. Thinking about building a new .416 based on the .375 Ruger case or another .416 Taylor...............or, I may just get a .458 Lott and be done with it.:)

I have a good .375 H&H and both a .340 and .300 Wby on Sako actions..............one of those will certainly handle the other stuff.

whoops wrong button.
What Iwas saying that if your stuck on bolt guns, that the 375 RUM is pretty nasty on big critters.
But that is not my cup of tea
my tastes run more toward the leveraction side of DGH
reasons being because the lever action can be cycled faster, hold more rounds, can be nearly as accurate, and look just plain cool.

If i were going to do that though, my choices would have to be either the Marlin 1895 in 45-70, the Winchester 1886 in 50-110 or the Winchester 1895 in 405 win. all three of these drive heavy-for caliber lead flatpoints at medium velocties, resulting in deep penetration.

he 45-70 can be had in 400gr@ 1900 fps to 550gr @1550 fps
The 50-110 can be had in 415gr @2000fps to600gr @1600fps
The 405 can behad from 300gr @2300fps to 450gr@ 1900fps

All of these have been used on dangerous and thick skinned game with excellent success. I would be happy to take any of these on any endeavor in to Africa, without having to worry about my or my PH's welfare. Another consideration is that these are all cheaper than most bolt guns and all double rifles

The 1895 Marlin in 45-70 stoked with 425 Grain Pile driver Jr's is one of my favorites for DG. I plan to take it with me when I move to Alaska. It is small enough, handy enough and most of all, powerful enough to handle anything on land. I will also take my .416 Rigby and others but I forsee the Marlin being a permanant fixture in my truck and boat.

Kudu40

PS; I also plan on having my Ruger Vaquero .45LC close by when I can't have the rifle by my side.

Nothing wrong with the 45/70 50/110 and the 405 , they are fine rounds in their own right , and in their own place .. I have never owned a 405 but the other two I have owned and love them dearly ..

However there place is not in Africa hunting the Big Five .. These so called gunwriters we have who are sold out to the advertisers of their magazines , are gonna get someone killed sooner or later because of this non sense ..

as far as the price of premium cartridges go, it is irrelavent, as you will likely only need a couple of boxes for the entire trip. + compared to the trophy fee for a good cape buffalo + other costs, it is infinticimal(did i spell that proper?).
how much a year do you pay for life ensurance?, just add a little more for the ammo eh.

Nothing wrong with the 45/70 50/110 and the 405 , they are fine rounds in their own right , and in their own place ..
However there place is not in Africa hunting the Big Five .. These so called gunwriters we have who are sold out to the advertisers of their magazines , are gonna get someone killed sooner or later because of this non sense ..

Whoa whoa. Not in africa? Why Not? Teddy Roosevelt took a 1895 in .405 to Africa in 1909. The winchester 1886 express in 50-110, was made EXPRESSly for African and Alaskan Big Game Hunting.
If you are trying to justify numbers, here are some for you.
All of those loads I qouted generate at least 3000 ft lbs, and three of them over 3500 ft lbs.
according to Pondoro Taylor's Knock-Out Factor ( Wt x dia x Velo/7000), the big slow loads easily out do the .375h&h (41 KO) are on Par with the 416 rem (57 KO), And nearly come up to 458 win (69 Ko)
45-70 550@1550fps (56 Ko).......50-110 600@1600fps (70KO).....405 450@1900fps (50ko)

If you want a real thumper, Here is one. Ruger # 1, 45-70,22"bbl: 500gr FMJ @1850 Fps.=
( 61 KO), 3800ft lbs.

Trey,
Your numbers still show the 45/70 to be below the minimum requirements of some of the African countries for dangerous game. Zim requires a minimum 9.3 caliber and 3909 ft/lbs.

BTW,
Teddy also used a 500/465 H&H double on his safari and took many of his dangerous game animals with it. If you read the book, he didn't have 1-shot kills with his 405 Win on the dangerous game animals, although Teddy's shooting left a lot to be desired. Today's bullets might make a difference, too, though.

since you brought that up, what about the 577/450 MH, or the 450NE bp, or the 500NE bp, 9.3-74r? are those not good enough? These are perfectly fine for thumpin' a pachyderm and have plenty of times.

In that case.... what about the old 45-120 3-1/4 or the 50-140 3-1/4 Sharps Buffalo cartridges? I can guaratee that those spank the pants off the ones above, balck powder or no.

You guys aren't making this any easier......
I have come to the point where I need buff stopping power, if not for Africa, for on this side of the pond on a private ranch where similar such beasties roam from time to time.
I thought I was going to be happy with the 375, but have lately been thinking about the 416 Rigby. I have ruled out the 416 Weatherby (fine rifles and I have some) but I think their 416 is a bit excessive for my abilities.
I have been practicing with a 458 Win, Ruger #1 Tropical, but don't want to take a single shot hunting. Working the loads steadily upward, I have grown accustomed to all but the heaviest charges. In retrospect, my 300 Win mag, is now childs play in comparison.
Whatever I finally choose, it will get fired quite a bit, as that's what I generally do with my guns. I have the destinct fear, that I am going to end up with two more rifles here. I'm trying to thin them out, not add more!
Bestboss

Aye Carumba!!!!!

Thin your guns out??? why???

If i could have a gun for every game animal I would, dude!

thats is why we're here, cuz we love guns and we want more of them, right?

Trey,
I know the thought of thinning out some guns sounds crazy, but it is that time for me. I have spent too much time reloading, punching paper and reloading some more. Sure, I have been hunting as I have time, but getting out and about has become more of a focus lately.
It would appear that financially it is possible, so I am exploring my options. Actually, discussing it with the wife, I am considering a trip across the pond for a look see. Bad part is, I have no compelling need to kill anything. I would however, like to collect a buff, if the opportunity arose. Just that itch that needs satisfying.
The big problem with a rifle, is that I am left handed. I have made due with right handed bolt guns for 40 years now. I hesitate to switch sides at this late date. And while I have "learned" how to operate a right handed bolt gun quite well, I have not yet added the aroma of a buff floating across my sights while doing so.
Furthermore, while I am a big fan of lever guns, I am not even tempted to take one to Africa. Even my 1886 in 45-90, is what it is and no more. I guess that's my dilemma and I would welcome any suggestions from those in the know. I am a bit out of my league here.
Thanks
Bestboss

The 450/400 and 404 seem to be left out in the discussion so far. This power and recoil level and thus practical rifle weight would seem to be a good choice for a sportsman. A bit more than the 9.3s or 375s, but less damage to the shoulder from either recoil or carry than the "stoppers". Yes, a PH should tote something more.

Fireplug

Wow. Lot of really good data here.

First, I should say that I am into classic guns and cartridges. Really got no use for all the new stuff. To me the whole point of hunting dangerous game is the "dangerous" part. If you shoot your buff at 70 yards with a Weatherby .460 or somesuch, it just doesn't seem all that dangerous.

When I hunt Africa I'm there for the romance. My favorite author is John Hunter and my second would probably be Hemingway. These guys are like gods (small g) in my mind. They lived life with a gusto that would be impossible to experience in todays times.

I'm still a little boy at heart and I admit, this hero worship probably seems childish. But what the heck. You've gotta love these guys.

When I went on my first safari, it was a Botswana Buffalo hunt. I brought a .375. It did a fantastic job.

With my preamble complete, let me say:

.375 is adequate in most instances. Use the right bullet and you are good to go. A .416 Rigby is better. If I had to stop a charge from DG, I would definitely rather throw a gargantuan piece of lead at him.

When it comes to doubles, it just doesn't get any better. You've got an INSTANT backup gun if you need it. In my estimation the .450 NE is an excellent cartridge.

My favorite Ph (who is now like a brother) carries a Mauser in .404 Jeffries. That is an awesome cartridge and probably the perfect compromise between the .375 and the .416.

Just my .02 guys. I'm just happy to be here !~

Cheers,
Richard

The BPE's were not / are not DG calibers .. The 500 BPE is comparable to a 338 win mag if you like quoting "numbers" ..

Also TKO is irrelevant except for solids which is something people either do not know or conviently "forget" when they throw out their numbers ..

As much as TR was a great sportsman , he was a terrible shot ..

We can all thank our lucky stars that ol' TR was the Sportsman he was. What a magnificent man. His life is an incredible story.

I love talking about calibers and ballistic tables as much as anybody. In my earlier years I was heavy into reloading. ' course this was so long ago, we used books for our ballistic tables. I guess it's all on computer nowadays.

Anyway, those ballistic tables are the bible when you talk either theory or application. BUT, it's the exceptions that make the interesting stories.

My first buf was in Botswana. I shot him on the last day of my hunt. We had gotten up close and personal with a lot of buf but I had been holding out for a forty incher. That's a decent buf in Botswana or was back then.

Long story short ... Shot him inside of thirty five yards with a .375 H&H. He was quartering left to right and not in an aroused state. He took one step and dropped.

My second buf was in Namibia. I was in the Caprivi Strip hunting elephant and came across a decent buf. They were farely scarce in our area and I decided to take him.

I was carrying a .416 Rigby. It was an actual Rigby built on a giant Mauser action. Again, I was inside 35 yards. Now, I had always been told and read that if you shoot a cape buffalo, you keep shooting till he drops cuz he can really hurt you.

Alright. I shoot him in the heart lung area. He looks at me. I shoot him again and again. Empty and reload and empty again. His head is hanging to the ground, his tongue his hanging out, he's bleeding like a gutted hog from the mouth and shoulder.

Now, you gotta understand, I am pumped. I'm on the ground and up close and personal this guy just won't drop. Guess I got carried away, I don't know. Anyway, my PH comes up behind me and puts his hand on my shoulder and says "he's done". He just keels over.

My third one was in Tanzania. I was carrying a .450 Nitro Ferlach Double. First shot was from the front right in breadbasket. My second shot was on the run. Not sure where it hit. Tracked him for fifty yards and he was still up. Dropped with one more round.

Now, if you didn't know better and and don't believe in your ballistic tables you'd get all the wrong messages from those stories.

Here's my idea of one example of a proper set of calibers to cover all of your African needs. Of course, I'd happily substitute the .416 for the .450 Nitro or a decent .300 H&H for the 30'06.

Pictured below is a 30'06, a .375 H&H and a 450 Nitro.

Finn Aagard had vast experience in these matters. Before he left us he returned to hunt Africa once more and his choice for his heavy was a 416 Remington. As I recall it may have been his only rifle for the trip.

Guzziac
Richard Purcell

Finn Aagard had vast experience in these matters. Before he left us he returned to hunt Africa once more and his choice for his heavy was a 416 Remington. As I recall it may have been his only rifle for the trip.

Guzziac
Richard Purcell

He also said...

"I do not mean to denigrate the .375 H&H [as not being the only true African rifle]; quite the contrary. I think it is arguably the finest all-around big game cartridge ever designed. If I could have but one rifle for all African hunting, I would without any hesitation choose a .375 H&H." -- Finn Aagaard, "Cartridges for Africa - The Reality," Rifle, No. 170 (March-April 1997), p. 17.

Sirs;
I'm new to your forum but I've been building (retired now) some 9.3X62, 9.3X64 and several 416 Taylor. (416 Taylor - 458 Win Mag necked down to 416 - duplicates Rigby velocities.)
Been training "Doc" for seven years in gunsmithing and we in his last trip up built an A-Square in 495 A-Square! Used a P-17 Enfield action.
We found recoil in these big guns very mild with Limbsaver pads! Performance is tremendous.
I'm very impressed with these big calibers as the 9.3s were developed nearly a century agd in Germany.
I really find recoil very mild with these big guns - not at all like a 378 Weatherby!
Good hunting!
HNB

I have a question for Ken Oneill. If the .416 Rigby has no performance advantage over the .416 Rem why do you say it is too heavy?
Thank you,

Kudu40