Didn't want to hijack the other thread...

I found this statement by Chuck Hawks:
The first shotgun "slugs" were probably round, lead "pumpkin balls." These were common projectiles for muskets and shotguns--any sort of smooth bore long arm--for a long time. Unfortunately, the accuracy of a lead ball fired from a smooth bore barrel is pretty sad. Hitting the target is problematical and precise bullet placement is nearly impossible except at very close range. Also, a lead ball has a very poor sectional density (SD), and consequently poor penetration.

Ole Chuck doesn't define an exact number for "very close range" so that's my first question....is "close" 25yds or 125yds?

Nonetheless, the thing that got me was the last line, specifically the "poor penetration" part.

I don't have an axe to grind with Mr. Hawks, similar statements have been made but I just happened to find this one today and it got my feathers ruffled because it's "mostly" BS and if Chuck reads this, I don't want him thinking I'm singling him out to flame on, the problem I have is with the statement and the reasoning behind it, not with Mr. Hawks himself. Hope that clarifies my position and intent.

Back to the statement itself which boils down to, "poor penetration" and "poor accuracy".

Let's start with the accuracy portion. As with anything else, no two guns are going to shoot the same as the rule, thus load building is paramount in any situation. Right from the start, Chuck offers no identification on that which his statement is based. Did he use handloads or some old vintage roundballs wrapped in the felt wads? Did he even do any testing at all or did he simply repeat the myths passed on by others? - My vote goes for the latter because if Mr. Hawks had in fact done any testing at all, the "poor penetration" part would not be in his statement. I could then accept the part of "poor accuracy" as being the result of incomplete load building.

Many years ago when slugs were not the "in thing", I was just getting started in muzzleloaders shooting PRB's and was intrigued by some old paper hull roundball (pumpkin) loads some guy gave me. Then I happened across an old gun rag that had an article in it on loading your own roundballs in hulls. The temptation was too great and I started messing with them using the article and a little reverse engineering on the factory loaded samples I had. Without going into the whole process, what I ended up with was a cast round ball and a cotton patch just like the muzzleloader except it was put in the hull and not shoved down the barrel.

The gun was a single shot 12ga someone stuck in the mud and opened up the muzzle on like flower pedals. Chopped the bad section off with a hacksaw and put some make-shift sights on it. Trial and error lead to installing peep sights and after a lot of load building, I got it to consistently shoot 4" groups from the bench at 100yds. Time went by and after having seeing first hand the dismal performance a 7/8oz slug had on a boar, I went back and did the actual performance testing. Variety of brands in the Brennekke (sp?) style did not produce anywhere near the penetration depth and wound channel size the PRB's did.

Years went by and I got away from shooting them but a time arose when I got invited to hunt deer in a shotgun only area. Let me tell ya, I've never seen animals drop like those deer did getting smacked with that big ole round chunk of lead. I swear you could actually hear the initial impact. Mr. Hawks may think roundballs don't penetrate but unlike those two slugs that stayed in the hog, the PRB's had no problem coming out the other side leaving a hole you can stick your fist through.

Here's my point:
Had Mr. Chuck actually tested the roundballs, would he have still made that statement? With all the emphasis on calculating energy and knock down and so on... why are so many things simply dismissed based on myths without anyone taking the time to actually test them and see if what they were told actually has any merritt or if it's just another load of BS?????

Hello Mark! I love it! Excellent! Now days one has to the careful what they say about slug/bullets for rifled barrels, much less smoothbore! I have been flamed, thrahed, deleted, edited on a certain forum for even suggesting there was something besides Super-Dupper-Pooper-Scooper Sabot slug loads. But, We have to consider the source coming from the Shotgun-only states!
I find it quite amusing to hear such expert advice coming from people that kill a few deer a year......and to see them completly overlook that data from African/India hunters that killed a ton of game with what these Talking Heads call "Flying Bricks"
A bore size hardened roll ball, with it high velocity, was a favorite, for a decade or so. in Africa/India. If one studies the slug evolution in the USA....one would find hunters shot bore size round balls until choke came into use. It was only when the ammo people loaded much smaller RB, that would go the tight chokes, that accuracy fell out of bed. Then, of course, the Foster slug came on board.
Today, with some great rifled barrels for shotguns coming aboard, the shooters are separated by regions. A small section of the overall market is in shotgun only states, but to hear them blow, you would think they are supreme!
A postive take-off of shooting large hard cast in handguns and rifles (like Beartooth) is where Ole' Dixie gets its business! These people fully understand what a large hard cast bullet can do!
The main decision that slug hunter must decide is what to use in their regional hunting situation........Regards, James

I'm guessing that Mr. Hawks is just repeating "truths" he heard somewhere. My LRB loads in a smoothbore do just fine. Accuracy doesn't approach MOA, but is more'n good enough for deer, bear or hog hunting. As far as penetration goes, he's just flat wrong.

DC

JG, I am from a shotgun only state. When I first started hunting deer about 17 years ago, it was with a non ribbed 870. All I shot was the fosters. And they worked great. Nice big holes on both sides of the deer, nost of the time. Back in the late 90's when the sabots started to really gain in popularity, I went and bought a Moss 9200 with both barrels. I settled on the Rem coppers. I can say I killed deer with them, but, they always had to be tracked, and the holes were not very big in the deer. And one thing I found out about the sabots was that if you shot at anything over about 45yds, they would not expand. Nice pencil holes through the deer and had to track sometimes for a long time.

Now, I am loading the Lymann sabot slug at 1375fps. I think it is a 1 1/4oz slug. I have not loaded any in over two years. I still have 250 of them loaded up right now. Granted, it is not a true bore slug, but it works for me. Way bigger hole going in and out of the deer. They have always gone right through. Most of the deer have only ran about 20-30 yds after shot. I will not go back to the factory sabots. A friend runs a deer processing shop and gets to see all kinds of slugs taken on deer. He shows me all of the slugs that he collects every year out of the deer. Just about everyone of the sabots look like you could load them right back up in the shell and shoot them again.

I was on the other forum a few years ago when you were coming out with your slugs and I remember all of the BS from some of the guys. I want to try some of your slugs sometime. I am a firm believer in the big heavy "flying bricks":D Just not right now. So keep up the good work. Someone needs to show these guys on how it is really done!

Hey James ... I never did a chance to ring you're phone yet but just to warn you, it's coming one of these days! LOL BTW, did you catch the article in FL Sportsmen on Long Hammock Barrels?

Like I said, I hate single out Mr. Hawks but he just happened to the author of the story I found and I'd love to send him an email and have a friendly debate directly with him.

Funny thing, years back when I was in Africa (back in the 80's) the "safeties" that worked with the guides, also the people called when a big beast was ripping the crap out of a village, for the most part carried 10ga smoothbores with real hot hard roundball loads.

I used strait WW alloy for mine, wasn't planning on running into any charging rhino's, so I didn't worry to much about it, just used the cheap stuff with no ill affects. I don't have my specific notes but I recall the difference between the PRB's & slugs was about double the wound size and penetration. I was not running light charges either, they were cranked up using Blue DOT. I know one thing, I added about 2# to the stock to help tame the recoil a little, wasn't bad for hunting but shooting from the bench was a painful experience.

I know one thing though, I'll put one of my PRB's up against any of those puny little sub-caliber sabots in a penetration test. Just remember.... if a brick is flying, it's going to make one h*ll of a hole in whatever it hits. ;)

Friends All.......Quite frankly I don't give jack what some writer says anymore......nor I worry too much what these fellows in shot-gun only states huff and puff about! My answer is twofold. First is if it workd in Africa/India it will work in the States.....in Spades!
Second, I do not design, make, or sell sabot loads.....period!
My market is another concept......big, nasty, full bore.....for large and/or dangerous game within normal hunting distances.
Sure, they also work for smaller thin skin game!......Why not?
I still say.....if their loads are so great, send them out to John Linebaugh/Todd Corder for testing! We do and post the results!......simple and clean!
Regards, James

Anybody seen the Remington "Industrial slugs"? 2 ounces of a lead in a bore sized cylinder. Nothing fancy, no sabots just a big chunk of lead that kicks like a PO'ed mule in most guns. Purpose of these loads are to knock off slag build-ups in kilns and smoke stacks. Definitely not an accurate hunting load but goes to prove the point that mass is all important in getting a powerful impact.

James was brilliant enought to combine accuracy and damage design and come up with what I feel are the cream of the crop slugs. I'm seriously considering getting a set up specifically for his true "big bore nitro mags" ..... I have no reason to get one, rhino or elephant charges through the yard here are non-existent but one can never be too prepared for the unexpected! :)

Mark and All......Thank you for the kind words, but let me remind you all again that all our slug/bullets are just a take off of cast bullets that Marshall makes! .....just bigger cast bullets!
Bottom line is simple.......you get what you pay for! If soft swaged lead slugs will work for you, by all means buy them!
But, don't fool yourself into thinking they will perform on heavy game like a hard cast heat treated slug/bullet!......they will not!
I have talked to people until I am blue in the face about the size of some of these boar hogs in the woods now. People confuse these little farm hogs running around with some of the deep woods Tuskers that are showing up. A piece of target paper will never tell you about performace of a slug/bullet design in game! It does not take that much to kill a thin skin deer, but strap on the big hog and you might wish Wally Mart had those soft slugs back! If you plan to shoot that soft stuff, you might consider buying a pair of good snake proof chaps while you at there......they help a little against those hog tusks! .....until you get knocked down, then prayer helps!
Oh well! Time to feed the bulldogs!.......James

James, don't be cutting yourself short! You took the idea and ran with it and made it happen, no one else did it, you did, take the credit for it already! Geeze, what ever happened to being a little selfish? LOL :D :D