You all on these boards pretty much have known me for a few months now, usually rambling on about the .45 Colt :D

But I figured it might be time for a change of pace.

I've reading alot about the .44 WCF ever since before I bought my Legacy 94 in .45 Colt. Yeah I caught alot of **** from the purist telling me I should have got a .44 WCF instead. But show me a .44 WCF that can launch 300gr bullets at +P velocity.

Anyway, I was interested learning just what type of load worked best for what. Let us exclude the .44 WCF fired out of a revolver, as we all know that it is only suitable for people at very close range.

But when fired out of a rifle barrel, the .44 WCF attains almost the same velocity as a .44 Magnum from a revolver.

With this in mind, is it safe to say that the STANDARD PRESSURE (we'll talk about high velocity loads later) .44 WCF is a solid cartridge for deer up to 50 yards when fired from a rifle?

What about bullet weight? Does it make any real difference whether you shoot a 200gr bullet or a 240gr bullet? What practical difference does it make when shooting a deer at 50 yards?

Don't have experience with the .44/40, but do hunt from time to time with its litle brother, the .38/40. Load is 175 grain cast FN bullet, over a csae (36 grains or so) full of FFFg BP. Muzzle velocity is 1195 FPS, with a SD orf about 4 FPS. Taken two whitetails with this load, one at 35 yards, on at 48 yards. Both gave complete penetration thru the chest cavity,both were one shot kills.

I would have no worries with a 200 grain .44 bullet at similar velocity and range.

Can get into some debate about the strenght of 44/40 brass, but loads have been published that take 200gr. to a bit over 2000fps (24" barrels). I don't recommend that kind of loading.

But what I do know is that the bullet does not know from where it came...neither will the deer...once in the air and moving, could be a .44mag. load, 44-40 load, .44 automag, or whatever...caliber/weight/speed is all there is to it once it gets launched.

That we make a distinction between rifles and handguns has always bothered me a bit; as if the game cares or knows what fired the bullet that hits it. Given 35cal/180gr./1800fps. Handgunners see that combination in a different light that rifle shooters. Most handgunners find that a pretty good load for deer...but rifle shooters often think of it as marginal.

That we make a distinction between rifles and handguns has always bothered me a bit


Eh, I don't know. All I know is that I've seen lots of reading that states the winchester 73 in .44 killed more deer bla bla before the .30-30.

Never said anything about the colt in .44 WCF.

Also, to equal the velocity the winchester 73 can generate in a handgun, it would have to be a high velocity magnum load fired from a strong ruger.

But basically, what you're all saying is that it doesn't matter how heavy the bullet is when killing deer? So a 200gr .45 Colt at similar velocity (1200-1300fps) is capable of the same thing?

Would it have to be a lead bullet? Someone told me that a HP at those velocity in a light 200gr bullet wouldn't penetrate enough.

What about heavier bullets?

Am saying that a bullet doesn't know if it came from a handgun or a rifle...it's got construction (shape if you like),weight, diameter, and velocity. Of course the .45 (rounding down) bullet is going to be bigger than a .43 (rounding up...something like .145 sq. inches vs. .159 sq. inches.

But apples-to-apples...200gr. at 1600fps, .44mag. handgun or .44/40 rifle is going to act the same way (given the same bullet construction).

In the 44/40, would proably take a 200-210gr. cast lead flat point and be happy.

Army GI,

The .44 W.C.F. was originally loaded with a 200 gr. lead bullet at a catalogued 1,245 f.p.s. The first smokeless loading came along in 1895 and duplicated the black powder ballistics.

In Winchester's catalog of 1875, users reported on the wonderful performance of the .44 W.C.F. on game. Here are a few of their testimonials.

..."I have fully tested the late improved Winchester Rifle and take pleasure in stating that it is the best rifle I have ever used. I have killed a number of deer, at distances from one to two hundred yards and in every instance, the bullet passed clean through the body."

..."I killed at a full gallop, at about 100 yards distant, a very
large buckwith a splendid set of antlers with the first shot. The
bullet struck him in the shoulder, as he ran toward me, and after traversing the entire length of his body, tearing the lights and paunch into atoms in its course, it passed out behind through the thickest part of the ham."

..."The killing qualities, at large game, is all that could be
desired, to the wonder and admiration of the guides and sportsmen who saw its working during my visit to the Adirondack woods last fall."

..."I can say for one, that I think the Winchester Model of 1873 is the best firearm now in use for hunting and sporting; they give the best satisfaction to every one that has used them here. James Gary and C.S. Martin have killed 17 bears and 100 deer since the first of September with Model 1873.


Fast forwarding to 2002, Doc Toombs reported the following on the SASS wire.

"I took 2 deer this year with a `73 short rifle clone in .44
W.C.F. My hunting partner took 3 deer with a Marlin in 44 magnum. We both using hand loaded cast bullets, mine weighed 200 grains, his 240 grain. His came out of the barrel at over 1,700 f.p.s., mine came out of the barrel at 1,290. All deer were shot at under 100 yards."

The results:
- all deer dropped within 50 yards
- no bullets were recovered (complete broadside penetration)

"There was NO difference on effectiveness between the two
calibers. Of course I still believe the Magnum is a superior deer cartridge. Probably the result of too many years of reading gun magazines."

"But the reward of using a '73 in .44 W.C.F. with original
velocity cartridges is immeasurable."

John

Thanks for those excerpts Kort. It's always nice to see something like that. It gets depressing reading all of these articles written by gunstore commandos talking about how the .44-40 is useless; then I read how the old timers did it in the wild west and survived.

The 44-40 or 44 WCF is an excellent deer sized animal stopper. I've taken a caribou and a few white tail deer with it. Pushing home cast 225 gr gas checked bullets out of a marlin 94 for hunting and a replica Colt peacemaker.

A couple of years ago I took the Marlin 44 WCF and a Shilo Sharps 45-70 to N. Quebec on a caribou hunt, dropped one bull at about 100 yds with the Marlin and one at 30 yds with the Sharps, both dropped in their tracks. I didn't recover either bullet as they were both shoot thru. The 45-70 was shooting 525 gr pure lead slug with black powder and the marlin was a hard cast with smokeless powder.

Forgot to add that I don't know if the Winchester 94 shoots the 44 WCF as effectively as the Marlin's do. Said with T.I.C..

Great, keep em coming!

People keep telling me that 200gr .44 or .45 bullets are inaequate for hunting. But that anecdotal evidence is proof that the difference between a 200 and 240-250 grain isn't as dramatic as people make it seem..

Im not a deer hunter but to my way of thinking if a 200gr bullet gives complete penetration on a broadside body shot the only benefit to stepping up to 240gr or more would be more reliable texas heart shots and more recoil if you drive them at the same velocity.

People keep telling me that 200gr .44 or .45 bullets are inaequate for hunting. But that anecdotal evidence is proof that the difference between a 200 and 240-250 grain isn't as dramatic as people make it seem..

On another site a chap discusses how well a golfball-sized wound channel - through and through - caused by a little 180gr WFNGC .357 out of a Rossi 92 carbine - seemed to kill this deer...

Range was about 50 yards hit high in the left shoulder. He collapsed at the shot, never to rise again.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f157/TedH/2006Deer-1.jpg

Funny how well those little "inadequate" pills work...

Im not a deer hunter but to my way of thinking if a 200gr bullet gives complete penetration on a broadside body shot the only benefit to stepping up to 240gr or more would be more reliable texas heart shots and more recoil if you drive them at the same velocity.

Yeah, I'd tend to agree with that. That's pretty much the conclusion one can come up with regarding all the presented information..

On another site a chap discusses how well a golfball-sized wound channel - through and through - caused by a little 180gr WFNGC .357 out of a Rossi 92 carbine - seemed to kill this deer...

Range was about 50 yards hit high in the left shoulder. He collapsed at the shot, never to rise again.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f157/TedH/2006Deer-1.jpg

Funny how well those little "inadequate" pills work...

Wow, thanks for that.

I'm thinking I might get a .357 Mag rifle too ;)

Stayed out of this, at least up to now, simply becasue I've not shot a deer with a 44/40. Have shot a deer with a 38/40; the loss of weight is about equailzed by the slighly higher SD of that 180gr. bullet....anyway, the two are pretty close in effect.

Keep the range short...miss the big bones...and they generally come out the other side. Pretty much up to you to make sure it intersects the good parts on it's travels.

The one deer shot was at 40yards from a tree stand; small whitetail doe. Black powder reloads (both the ammo and rifle..a Colt Lightening...were borrowed).Clipped a rib coming and going, making a hole though the upper part of the heart along the way. Deer took off, smacked into some branches of a dead-fall, bounced back, sat on it's rump for a second, and fell over.

I can't wait to take my 44-40 out on the goats this Christmas! Deer are hard to get round my area but wild goats roam free and easy. Man I love whitetail they are such beautiful animals! One day I'll get to the States and hunt them, one day!

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23887

http://home.comcast.net/~btvd/images/Ben_deer.jpg

It's a 44-40, Remington 200 grain soft point bullets. ... A nice doe came in to about 30 yards. When he pulled the trigger she dropped in her tracks. She just fell into a pile right where she had been standing. Didn't even take a step. We were amazed. We found the bullet under the skin on the exit wound side of the deer. It entered on the right side at the base of the neck and passed all the way through and lodged just under the skin over the left shoulder.

From an Original Win 1873 even.

Thanks OI, that was a beautiful anectode.

Army G.I. I would have to argree the "gun shop commando's" really don't spend much time in the woods to actully observe what happens to game when it hit with these suposedly antiquated rounds. It is my opinion that the wide flat melpat of the lead bullets that do the damage and knock the game down. Just take a look at all the older Keith style lead bullets, Elmer had this figured out years ago and some of now are rediscovering how effective those old designs are. They don't have to travel at wharp 5 to work on deer.

I love the gunstore commandos...they make sure that the local gun shop always has plenty of "inferior" 45 Colt ammo for me, cause they wont lower themselves to touching the stuff of course.

Food for thought. Back before the 44 mag and 300 ultra mags people managed to keep food on the table, fight off hostile attackers, and generally depended on their firearms to survive. Cartridges like the 38-40, 44-40, and 30-30 may not seem so hot by todays standards, but they were more than enough 100+ years ago, and are just as good today. I think a good lever rifle in 44-40 or 45 colt is just as good a deer rifle, certainly at shorter range, as my Model 70 in 30-06 that i love so much.