I noted this Rev. Scotty's reply to a humor post:

<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would think one could surely weed out the fence sitters that way, but one would also find out who takes thier CCW permit seriously!

Our little congregation seems to be pretty well armed on any given Sunday.

I guess I would have to suggest a different strategy for seperating the sheep from the goats....

Scotty [/quote]

This reminds me that while I was recently in the hospital, that my physical therapist, him being a Christian, and me in the business I'm in what my opinion was of Christians being armed.

His family, all Christians chastised him for wanting to get a short-barrelled pump shotgun for bear protection while taking his family huckleberry picking. &nbsp;They said he didn't trust the Lord or he wouldn't feel the need of a weapon.

He asked what my reply would be.

I gave hime three examples from the scriptures.

1. &nbsp;When young (before being annointed king) David went to the front lines to see his brothers where they were confronting the Philistines, came to the camp and in due course came before King Saul, pleaded his case, then eventually faced off against Goliath in mortal combat. &nbsp;The interesting thing is that David faced Goliath with his own weapon: &nbsp;A sling. &nbsp;He was a shepherd, and the sling was a weapon and tool necessary to his occupation. &nbsp;He did not go on his journey to see his brothers unarmed. &nbsp;He had the fear of the True And Living God, but also went prepared for the unexpected with his armament: &nbsp;His sling.

2. David is described in the Bible as a "man after God's own heart", and yet we see him being armed in many places in the scripture. &nbsp;Memorably is the passage where David is being pursued by Saul, and while in a cave in the Wilderness of En Gedi, Saul went into that very cave to releive himself.

<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->1Sa 24:4
And the men of David said unto him, Behold the day of which the LORD said unto thee, Behold, I will deliver thine enemy into thine hand, that thou mayest do to him as it shall seem good unto thee. Then David arose, and cut off the skirt of Saul's robe privily. [/quote]

It's evident that David was once again armed, with a blade of substance. &nbsp;A weapon.

3. &nbsp;Finally for a new testament instance, when Jesus was in the Garden, before his betrayal, we recall this scene:

<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->John 18:10
Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. [/quote]

Now, admittedly, this isn't the course of action that Jesus wanted to happen, but it underscores the fact that even Peter, one of Jesus' desciples, while walking, and traveling with Jesus, our Lord, was packing iron (the weapon of choice in his day). &nbsp;From this I deduce that it wasn't an uncommon practice, yet nowhere do I see it condemned by our Lord.

In each case, the person in question, packing the weaponry of the day were secure in their position with God, and trusted God.

I just wondered what other views might be shed on the subject from a Biblical perspective?

God Bless,

Marshall

Luk 22:36 &nbsp;And He said to them, But now, he who has a purse, let him take it, and likewise his wallet. And he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

Don't have time to respond as I'd like ...but this verse comes to mind.

Here's a good Bible Resource, and it's free...not much that's free...
http://www.e-sword.net/index.html

Marshall,

I have heard the same, (or similar) comments in the past.

I am also mindfull of the passage in Nehemiah where they were rebuilding the wall around Jerusalem: Chapter 2

11 &nbsp;And our adversaries said, They shall not know, neither see, till we come in the midst among them, and slay them, and cause the work to cease.
12 &nbsp;And it came to pass, that when the Jews which dwelt by them came, they said unto us ten times, From all places whence ye shall return unto us they will be upon you.
13 &nbsp;Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows.
14 &nbsp;And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses.
15 &nbsp;And it came to pass, when our enemies heard that it was known unto us, and God had brought their counsel to nought, that we returned all of us to the wall, every one unto his work.
16 &nbsp;And it came to pass from that time forth, that the half of my servants wrought in the work, and the other half of them held both the spears, the shields, and the bows, and the habergeons; and the rulers were behind all the house of Judah.
17 &nbsp;They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon.

Sounds like good advice when doing the Lords work to me.

Another favorite is Jerimiah 16:16 "Behold, I am going to send for many fishermen" declares the Lord "and they will fish for them: afterwards, I shall send for many hunters, and they will hunt them from every mountain, and every hill and from the very clefts of the rocks (NIV translation)

Where to hide, where to hide...hmmmmm....

Scotty

Marshall,

Three or four years ago, I got a call from the preacher of my church on a Saturday evening. &nbsp;He asked if I'd be carrying my pistol the next morning. Seems a couple of people of the congregation were being stalked. &nbsp;I was asked to sit in the back pew "just in case there's an emergency". &nbsp;No emergency that morning, but after the fact, I found out that almost a dozen men and women of the church were prepared that morning; &nbsp;all had concealed carry permits. &nbsp;It might be a whole lot more interesting to call down fire from Heaven! &nbsp;:-)

Don 'Lobo' Lohr

I am not a Christian, nor a follower of any other organized religion.
But I do believe in a Higher Being, and that I am responsible for my own actions and will be held accountable in the Afterlife.
However, I recall hearing that when Jesus was alone in the desert, Satan appeared to him.
Satan urged Jesus to leap off a cliff (or some other dire action, the nature of which I can't recall).
And Jesus replied that one should not put God to a foolish test.
And that's how I feel about relying on God alone for my protection.
The Christians swept into the Holy Lands in the Middle Ages, during the Crusades, and abused its residents horrifically for three centuries! The non-Christians who put their faith in their God were slaughtered, tortured, raped and robbed --- by Christians. Their faith did not save them.
Three hundred years later, thousands of innocent people perished in the Spanish Inquisition. Their belief in Christ did not save them.
The Native Americans put their faith in their Great Spirit, and were slaughtered by the millions.
The Jews were rounded up and died by the millions in death camps in World War II. Their belief in Yaweh did not save them.
An estimated 50 million people died in World War II, many of them strong believers in their faith. It didn't save them.
And some still ask me to put my faith in God for my protection?
Yeahhhhh ... right!
I have faith in my firearms to save me.
I'll shoot first, and explain myself to my Maker later when I meet Him, Her, It or They.
I will never believe that killing another human being in self defense is anywhere near a sin or somehow wrong.
It may be regrettable, maddening, sorrowful, pitiful or any other related adjectives. But it is not wrong.

True,
We shall all face death, "saved" or not.

But I didn't think death was what I would be saved from.

It was the life I was living at the time, that I wanted to be saved from!

I hated my life.

I can't speak to the atrocities commited in Christ's name, but I know what happened to ME.

I had no peace. No real peace. Ever.

Now, I have a life in relationship with The Living God through Christ, and it has made all the difference.

Pursuant to the topic:
I rode motorcycles on the street for a couple of decades.
I always (well mostly) wore a helmet.

I trust God.

I don't trust other drivers!

Gatofeo,

RE: Crusades.......don't confuse true Christians with those who claim His name. &nbsp;

Don "Lobo" Lohr

Even the sheep have shepards.

I am not an overly religious person, but my mother, God rest her soul, taught me what was right and what was wrong. There are many arguments to this debate. "An eye for an eye", "Turn the other cheek". are the most common.
The bible is full of storys telling us of the "smitten" enemy, but also has storys of "bad" people being redemed in the lords name, as well as those involving people, who in their idea of the lords interest, performed some wrong doing.
I guess to sum up what i am saying is that to live in total ignorance based on an ideology of unfallible trust would be niave, yet at the same time to declare self preservation based on exposure to constant wrongdoings would border on paranoa.
I believe the only real answer is to prepare yourself for the worst, believe and rejoice in the pleasure of life itself, and pray that God will grant you the wisdom to act acordingly when time nescessitates.
Thank you for taking time to read this, as it is of course, only my opinion.

Jesus is the way. It is only human nature to doubt the truth. I hope it never comes to having to carry a weapon to church in this country.

Gatefeo ( hope I spelled it right ), This is the way I looked at it for too long. &nbsp;My years in the Marines were spent with a weapon of one sort or another in my hand training. &nbsp;I learned to trust my abilities with them. &nbsp;But the difference is that God is there always. &nbsp;He is powerful beyond our comprehension, He cares for us. &nbsp; We are not promised freedom from suffering or pain. &nbsp;Most of the pain in this life originates with ourselves.

Consider this, when the ammo is gone, &nbsp;the blade is broken, and your hands have no more power, &nbsp;He is there. &nbsp;We can overcome the final fate of us all, &nbsp;death itself.

Your brother, Don

Say, Chief Rid,

Actually, I've heard there is a "blue" law still on the books in Boston, requiring gentlemen with sidearms to escort women to church.
For bears, Redcoats, or Indians, do y'suppose?

It may of course have been superceded by OTHER laws by now.

<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

Marshall, In my opinion, you could remind your physical therapist, that while the scripture tells us to clearly put our trust in the lord,that bear defense is still a good idea. The good book states in clear language that the lord has granted man eminant domain over all creatures of the land,( not sure of the exact scripture), but to catch his meal the fisherman still needs a hook and line.

Snowman,

Well put! &nbsp;Indeed you are right about our dominion over all the animals (the verse you referred to is Gen 9:2). and yes, even when the disciples were walking with Jesus, he even commanded them to "let down their nets" that they might catch fish!

Good points, and well taken. &nbsp;Thank you.

God Bless,

Marshall

Dear Marshall:

This is a nice addition to the forums. You obviously put your faith on the line with every post, but this extra forum will be welcomed by those who enjoy it and ignored by those who don't.

We have a fast food chain in California called "In and Out Burgers". It is pretty well known that the owners are outspokenly Christian. Their radio commercials used to be done by Rex Allen Junior, son of the real singing cowboy. Maybe ten years ago, he did a commercial that just flabbergasted me. It was Christmas time and toward the end of the commercial he said something like "and while you are out looking for gifts for your friends and relatives, remember that God gave you the greatest gift possible by sending His Son to be your Savior". A hamburger commercial on L.A. radio! I was amazed.

You may want to tell your physical therapist to remind his relatives that we are God's instruments. Why should our faith force the Lord to do the extraordinary, and have Him throw a lightning-bolt at an angry bear, when we can do the ordinary? We can use the tools and intelligence that He gave us and carry a shotgun. It's not our job to try to force His hand by crossing freeways while blindfolded or jumping off of skyscrapers. The common sense He gave us is miracle enough.

Darrel

I love this new addition to the forums!!!!

There are some very good views and opinions on this topic.

If the Lord needs to use me for his work when I am carrying my sidearm then so be it.

Just remember that the Lord uses all things for his good. &nbsp;We may not see it or know what it is, that is why it is called faith. &nbsp;Sometimes bad things happen to good people, seems no rhyme or reason for it, but even in those times we know that He is with us always and will never forsake us.

Thank you for this addition to the forums.

Will

you fellas might find this interesting. It appears that many of the posters in this thread have some good knowledge of the good book and was wondering if you mostly agree/disagree with this article: *http://www.gunowners.org/fs9902.htm



<!--EDIT|Marshall Stanton|April 24 2002,08:32-->

That is excellent...

Great link! &nbsp;Good Stuff to be sure.

That article seems to echo each and every point discussed on this thread!

God Bless,

Marshall

Great New Edition to the Forum!!

This is one of my favorite passages, as I am primarily an archer.

Psalms 127:4-5

Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons of one's youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

May I add that even before he killed Goliath, David was noted for having killed a bear and a lion.

As far as trusting God goes, I have a story:

A flood came, and a preacher climbed up onto his church steps to escape the water. &nbsp;Soon a rowboat came by, and the preacher was offered a ride to safety. &nbsp;"No, my son, there are others who need your help more than I. &nbsp;God will take care of me!"

The water rose, and the preacher was up on the church roof when a motorboat came by. &nbsp;Again, the preacher refused a ride. &nbsp;"No, there are others who need your help more than I. &nbsp;God will provide for me!"

The water continued to rise, and soon the preacher was clinging to the tip of the steeple. &nbsp;A helicopter approached and lowered a sling, but the preacher refused it, saying, "God will provide for me!"

The water rose higher, and the preacher drowned. &nbsp;He went stomping up to the pearly gates, grabbed Peter by the shirt front, and demanded to see God. &nbsp;When he was taken before God's throne, he marched up to God and said: "God, you let me down! &nbsp;I trusted you to provide for me, and you failed me!"

God replied, "What more do you want? &nbsp;I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"

I conclude that David would have used a firearm -- even one of those evil assault rifles -- if he'd had one.

When a soldier asked Jesus what he must do to enter the Kingdom of Heavan, Jesus told him "Do violence to no man".

As a professional soldier, this direction has always caused me a certain amount of discomfort. The most common interpretation is that he meant no unnecessary violence, to only use as much force as is necessary. This seems reasonable and in keeping with the Old and New Testaments.

I would be interested to know what interpretation the others who frequent this forum might have.

Hey Kanuck -- I'm no true Bible-Scholar, but I do have at least a vague knowledge of most scripture, and I've never heard any reference to the verse you mentioned.

It is very easy to hear old sayings and folklore incorrectly attributed to holy scripture.

Anyhow, enlighten me, please with the source of this passage.

Thanks and God bless, you! --CC

It would seem you are correct. The passage I was thinking of came from Luke, Chap 3 Verse 14. It would appear that the instruction was provided by John the Baptist.

Still, the instruction remains. What was meant when the soldiers were told to "do violence to no man"? Certainly, there is a very different pattern of behaviour expected of those in the old testament (many parts of which would put a block-buster motion picture to shame for violence!) and the new testament, with its pacifistic theme. Can a person use force, even in defence of self, family or country, and still be a Christian? That seems to be a central question regarding Christianity that, to my mind anyways, has never been satisfactorily resolved. It is one the clergy within the military still debates.

Any assistance from anyone reading this or your pastors would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the clarification Kanuck! I had to grab a Bible to look up the verse you referenced, and here is what I found:

Luke 3:14: Then some soldiers asked him: "What should we do ?" He replied: "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely -- be content with your pay."

The above quote is from the NIV -- but the scripture includes no reference to use of violence or force in warfare or defense. --CC

I must say this has been a very pleasent thread to follow,I most normally wince at the thought of replying to a religous post.Get tired of the name calling and hate on others sites. I will not offer my opinion on the subject, I don't want to sway any one one way or the other,I have used firearms both in the Service of my country and in the service of my state as a police officer,and have had to take life,which was not mine to take. The one thing that I have taken over the years,Mongisor Green taught me,The commandments are not translated right.,when it says do not kill,it should have said do not commit murder,he went on to explain that when you take up the life of a Solider or Poilce Officer it is your duty to protect those who can't protect themselfs,and if in doing your duty,you have not commited the sin of murder,in his eyes for you have protected the innocence.

Good Thread!

I too have done extensive searches for the passage regarding "doing violence to no man" and have come up empty... simply can't locate a scripture to that end.

A good observation regarding the commandments, indeed it does say " Thou shalt not commit murder." it doesn't say that you shouldn't kill.

Jesus himself reiterated the murder wording here:

Mt 19:18
He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' NKJ Version

If the commandments indeed did say "Thou shalt not kill", then all the guidelines for dealing with anything requiring a death penalty as detailed extensively in Leviticus and Numbers would be for not, as a death penalty requires the taking of life. Too, all the tens of thousands of lives taken when the Children of Israel took over the promised land wouldn't have been permissable, yet both are commanded of God.

Indeed, protecting one's home from a thief at night is admissable as is seen in Exodus 22:1-4
If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and slaughters it or sells it, he shall restore five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep. 2 If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 4 If the theft is certainly found alive in his hand, whether it is an ox or donkey or sheep, he shall restore double. NKJ Version


Expounding upon this passage, the Matthew Henry Complete Commentary says this:
If a thief broke a house in the night, and was killed in the doing of it, his blood was upon his own head, and should not be required at the hand of him that shed it, v. 2. As he that does an unlawful act bears the blame of the mischief that follows to others, so likewise of that which follows to himself. A man’s house is his castle, and God’s law, as well as man’s, sets a guard upon it; he that assaults it does so at his peril. Yet, if it was in the day-time that the thief was killed, he that killed him must be accountable for it (v. 3), unless it was in the necessary defence of his own life.

Wow, I'm out of time and must get back to work, but this subject really gets me fired up to dig into God's Word.... great stuff!

For those doing some in-depth bible studies, word/phrase searches or character/subject research, try these two URL's.

www.bible.crosswalk.com
www.blueletterbible.org/

These are very useful tools available free online, and between the two of them are very comprehensive study resources with about every imaginable Bible translation, as well as the original Hebrew and Greek.

God Bless,

Marshall

The passage you are referring to is in Luke...
Luk 3:14 And the soldiers also asked of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said to them, Do not forcibly extort anyone, nor accuse any falsely. And be content with your wages.
This deals with extortion. John was talking about a crime of which the Roman soldiers were notoriously guilty of. Gill's commentary say's "do violence to no man; or "shake" him, or put him, into bodily fear, by threatening, hectoring, and bullying him, and drawing the sword upon him, which is usual, upon the least offence, for such persons to do;

In regards to your question about being a Christian and using force. Of course you can. Our relationship with God isn't based upon what we do. Let me explain that better. Jesus Christ died on a cross for me because I'm a sinner. There is nothing I could do to get to heaven own my own merit. But He made a way for me, He became my substitute.

Mat 1:20, 21 And as he thought upon these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take to you Mary as your wife. For that in her is fathered of the Holy Spirit. And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

My relationship with God is based upon the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ. It's all done! He has payed the price, God the Father was satisfied with His death. The resurrection is proof of that.

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.
When the Philippian jailor asked Paul what he needed to do to be saved, Paul replied, believe, believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

That's how you get saved. I'm also being saved, from my sinful behavior, as the Holy Spirit changes me. Day by day. And, I will be saved, from the judgement that lost sinners will face without Christ as Savior. Salvation is past, present and future.

If I walk up and slap a man, my Father in heaven isn't going to be pleased with my behavior. If my child did the same I wouldn't be pleased. But their still my child, alway's will be. I'll still be a child of God, because it isn't based upon my performance. It's based upon the finished work of Christ on the cross.

I've typed too much, funny I talk too much to!:D

You are a soldier? You are fulfilling a devinely appointed ministry. Goverment comes from God. Paul wrote about this in Romans...
Rom 13:1-5 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment. For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same: for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

Marshall, no offense meant, but i would have love to have had you with me while I was in the Semminary,At one time I thought I wanted to be a Jesusit. But Lated decided Guns and Girls more important,but we would had lively debates,
I'll say again how refreshing it is to discuss this thread with out the finger pointing and nay sayers about.

I made the statement that it was Jesus who was talking about extortion, I was wrong. It was John the Baptist. Just wanted to set that straight.