Hi, I could use a little advice on the .480 Ruger. I have carried the Ruger Super Redhawk on 2 previous trips to Alaska and have been trying to work up some heavy loads for it. Have been reloading for 40 years but no wildcatting---always just followed the manuals. Trouble is there aren't that many heavy loads published for the .480.

I started out with John Taffins suggested load of a 425 gr. Cast Performance Bullet LFNGC over 19 grains of H110. for 1100 fps and started working up from there. when I got to 21 grains of H110 I started getting a compressed powder bulge in the case. After reading some other reloading articles I took some other writers advice (I forget which), and started crimping in the first lube ring behind the crimp ring and wiping the excess lube off the loaded cartridge. This gave me plenty of additional case space and the bulge went away. I am now up to 23 grains of H110, with the 425 grain CPB and CCI 300 large pistol primers with an average of 1216 fps. The case ejection is just a little stickey, and the primers show no sign of excess pressure (flattening, cratering, punctures, or black rings around the primer). The Hodgdon online loading data only goes up to 405 Grain CPB with a maximum load of 22.3 grains of H110, and I am up to 23 grains H110 behind the 425 gr. CPB. The cartridges shoot well (2in group, offhand at 10 yards, but I am getting way into uncharted territory (I have started wearing my crash helmit/visor over my safety glasses and gloves when I raise the powder charge). Does anyone know something about working up heavy loads that possibly I am missing???

Another thing that bothers me is that I have increased the powder charge by 4 grains (about 20%) and only increased the fps by 116fps. Could this be caused by increasing the space in the case by crimping in the first lube ring?

While I can shoot a 2 inch offhand group at 10 yards with this round there is a lot of difference between a bullseye and the nose of a Grizz (bobbing up and down)at about 30 miles per hour, so in reality I would probably go for center mass and would like to shoot the biggest bullet I could at the highest fps possible if I ever get in that situation. By the way I do carry a 500 Mossberg shotgun loaded with Dixie Terminator slugs at 730 grains @1200fps,
but lets face it we all put the long gun down sometimes when we shouldn't and thats when Murphy usually gets us! By the way those Dixie Terminator slugs of 730 grains@1200 are pretty impressive. I have a folding stock on my shotgun and after tapeing some foam pipe insulation where my cheek meets the stock and doubleing that on the butt of the stock it doesn't bloody up my mouth or bruise my shoulder too much,

Thanks in advance, Lee

Lee,

Forgive me for hollering, but YOU ARE WAY OUT IN OUTER SPACE MAN!

Here's the deal, pushing that 425gr bullet harder DOES NOT MAKE IT PENETRATE FARTHER. Sorry about the hollering.

19gr of H110 and 1100 fps with that bullet will most likely produce thru and thru shot on any animal in Alaska.

IMO, 23gr IS A SERIOUS OVERCHARGE under that bullet. Straight wall (or nearly straight) cases cannot be depended on to give pressure warnings.

Please forgive me if you think I am out of line. I just want to make sure I don't sound wishy-washy about this. Please run that load by Ruger or Cast Performance or Hodgdon and see if they think it's safe.

Regards,

Grizz

I believe the load quoted is seriously over maximum average pressure for any .480 Ruger. I urge you to stop, and not exceed any loading manual recommendations. I have a great deal of experience with the .475 Linebaugh on game up to 2000 lbs. in weight. A 400 @ 1100 is quite adequate for any North American game. If you need a FA .475 to run a 400 @ 1350-1400, get one.

Welcome to the forum Lee. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.

All I can say is you might want to listen to Ken and Griz.

I believe the load quoted is seriously over maximum average pressure for any .480 Ruger. I urge you to stop, and not exceed any loading manual recommendations. I have a great deal of experience with the .475 Linebaugh on game up to 2000 lbs. in weight. A 400 @ 1100 is quite adequate for any North American game. If you need a FA .475 to run a 400 @ 1350-1400, get one.

Agreed. I punched a bison with a .500 diameter 440gr. bullet at a bit under 1,000fps, and it's still dead.

More velocity will help you flinch better, though :D

Lee,

Forgive me for hollering, but YOU ARE WAY OUT IN OUTER SPACE MAN!

Here's the deal, pushing that 425gr bullet harder DOES NOT MAKE IT PENETRATE FARTHER. Sorry about the hollering.

19gr of H110 and 1100 fps with that bullet will most likely produce thru and thru shot on any animal in Alaska.

IMO, 23gr IS A SERIOUS OVERCHARGE under that bullet. Straight wall (or nearly straight) cases cannot be depended on to give pressure warnings.

Please forgive me if you think I am out of line. I just want to make sure I don't sound wishy-washy about this. Please run that load by Ruger or Cast Performance or Hodgdon and see if they think it's safe.

Regards,

Grizz

Grizz,

Maybe you can answer another question for me. If pushing the bullet harder does not make it penetrate deeper, why do we need .357 or .44 Mags---the bullets are the same size and weight as the .38 and .44 specials?

Just wondering,

Lee

P.S. Ruger, Cast Performance and Hodgdon are big companies with lawyers on retainer. Thats why I asked for advise from experts in the real world. I didn't want to be wishy washy either.

Lee,

Thanks for asking. It's a tricky subject and not exactly totally scientifically proven, but:

The theory of heavy bullets with large flat meplats is that they create a shock wave around them as they travel that mostly erases all resistance as the bullet moves thru the animal. If you overdrive the bullet it outruns the wound channel and becomes adversly affected.

There is a lot of literature about this. Randy Garrett has stated that the .458 WM would be a lot more effective if the loads were slowed down. He has some info about this on his web site.

Linebaugh does seminars and penetration testing of his arms and has shown the same thing.

As a for instance, my 525gr 45/70 load chronographs 1470fps from my guide gun, but penetrates 12 one gallon water jugs. This is serious penetration with a down-loaded round. It's the mass of the bullet that achieves the penetration. The 460 grain bullet over the same powder charge penetrates 10 jugs.

Same with .44 from a hand gun. My deer load, (I hunted in Alaska for close to 30 years), was a 320gr bullet that chronoed around 1100fps, but always gave full penetration from any angle.

As for your question about mags, it's a good one. I believe that a 44 special with the proper bullet will out-penetrate a 44 mag jsp or jhp factory load. No question. The reason those bullets have to be pushed harder is that the bullet deforms as it passes thru and often doesn't penetrate all the way.

I have recovered a 7mm mag bullet from a blacktail. That was when I quit carrying that gun. I carry for bear protection because I live in a dense population of them when I am home in southeast. So now I hunt with the guide gun and I carry a redhawk with 320gr hardcast in it for last ditch defense.

I have not absolutely proven that the faster load won't out penetrate my 525gr load, but so far NO ONE has produced a video of any greater penetration with common hunting loads. Here's mine:

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

Regards,

Grizz

On this planet the faster of two bullets will always have the potential of penetrating farther than the slower one. Take the 45-70 demonstration. That bullet loaded into a .450/400/3 1/4 Nitro Express would penetrate a bit further but what does it matter when you can achive what you have with that load as long as its safe. On the other hand trying to make a .480 Ruger into a .475 Linebaugh is a bad idea if you like both your hands with those little things called fingers still atached. Take the gentelmans adivse and pull any loads you have thats over the posted load limit and stick with Mr Taffin's loads he does know what he is talking about. Hard Cast

Lee,

as a PS: I forgot to mention that the bullet weights of 44 and 357 magnum are FAR LESS than the heavy for caliber bullets we are talking about.

If you do the calculation for momentum, it, ah, slipped my mind recently, you will see that the mags will never be in the same class as the heavies, it's the huge momentum figure that causes terminal results all out of kilter with the paper ballistics.

Hard Cast makes the common case that increased velocity will make increased penetration, but that's a guess. I would love to see the film on that one. I wish I had a .458 Ruger to try it. I would put the same bullet in and drive it at the SAAMI max pressure for the gun. That's the onliest way to really know, ya know?

On the national geographic channel I saw video of a .50 BMG 750gr bullet fired into 20+ gallon water jugs, you know, the water cooler type. It only penetrated 3 of them, about the same distance as my PileDriver load. I hope I can locate that video online someday for a comparison.

Regards to all,

Grizz

Lee,

as a PS: I forgot to mention that the bullet weights of 44 and 357 magnum are FAR LESS than the heavy for caliber bullets we are talking about.

If you do the calculation for momentum, it, ah, slipped my mind recently, you will see that the mags will never be in the same class as the heavies, it's the huge momentum figure that causes terminal results all out of kilter with the paper ballistics.

Hard Cast makes the common case that increased velocity will make increased penetration, but that's a guess. I would love to see the film on that one. I wish I had a .458 Ruger to try it. I would put the same bullet in and drive it at the SAAMI max pressure for the gun. That's the onliest way to really know, ya know?

On the national geographic channel I saw video of a .50 BMG 750gr bullet fired into 20+ gallon water jugs, you know, the water cooler type. It only penetrated 3 of them, about the same distance as my PileDriver load. I hope I can locate that video online someday for a comparison.

Regards to all,

Grizz

Grizz,

I was comparing 158 grain Keith SWC loaded in .38 cases to .38 specs as opposed to the same 158 grain Keith SWC loaded into .357 magnum cases to .357 magnum specs and the same for the .44s---trying to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

When I started loading up the .480 I went with the Hodgdon online pistol data which shows a a 370 CPB with a maximum load of 26 grains and a muzzel velocity of 1539 fps. I didn.t even get close. The cases were a little sticky on ejection at 23.5 grains of Lil Gun but at 24 grains of Lil Gun I had to beat each case out with a dowel rod and a rubber mallet. To me that meant that I had exceeded the maximum load even though I was still 2 grains short of the 26 grains of Lil Gun that Hodgdon said was a maximum load. I sent the SRH 7 1/2" into Ruger---they did some work on it and sent it back to me. It still took a dowel and mallet to eject the cases at 24 grains of Lil Gun. I abandoned the load and tried the 425 grains starting at 18 grains of H110 and was astonished at the lack of felt recoil that it delivered compared to the Lil Gun. John Taffin in his article said the he was only looking for an 1100 FPS load and was NOT going for a maximum load. I was trying to find a maximum load for the 425 grain bullet and as far as I know, no manual lists data for 425 CPB grain load although many people use that bullet in a .480. I never encountered any of the signs that I have always looked for in maximum loads. I went up in .5 grain increments at first and then changed to .2 grain increments. I was getting concerned and was not kidding about using the crash helmit with visor over my saftey glasses as well as heavy gloves.

I am not argueing the point that the load of 23 grains of H110 behind a 425 grain CPB bullet is above the limit. What I am trying to find out is why I have not experienced ANY of the signs of over pressure thay I have relied on in my reloading for the past 44 years? Thats why I stopped and asked for advise.

Respectfully,

Lee Phillips

PS I do not have any of these loads left and will take it on faith that they are over pressure, so many expert can't all be wrong.

Lee,

It sounds like you've been fairly careful in your workup. You've learned a good lesson about different powders. But I still believe you're over loaded with the load you published.

Are you comparing results of loads in the same firearms? What gun was Taffin loading for? That can make a difference in results.

Were you using the same cases? Some cases will hold less water than others. This means that everything else being equal, that load will have higher pressure.

Some powders SHOULD NOT be reduced more than a certain percent for a given load because reduced loads can make dangerously high pressures. I believe H110 is one of those.

All these variables are why it's important to find pressure tested loads that are known to be safe, and work around those. Sometimes there is a lot of performance to be gained by handloading, but other times, especially with the new high power rounds, there's not a real benefit to hotrodding. A chronograph is useful in this regard, if your bullet never exceeds the velocity of a published pressure tested load, then you have some reason to believe that your loads are not over pressure.

The biggest benefit of higher velocity is flatter trajectory, but in a defense of life bear stopper load this isn't a consideration. Reliability is, and a reduced load usually increases rather than decreases reliability.

Back to the mag versus special question. I don't have this test on film, but you could load a 300gr hard cast in a 44 special, and a 200gr bullet in a 44 mag, and I think the hard cast would out-penetrate the mag. It will help if you give thought to the momentum of the bullets, and what happens to the bullets as they pass thru the media.

So for a bear stopper I carry 320gr hardcast in my 44 redhawk over 19gr of H110, which is under the book max for that load, but has plenty of penetration (compared to the standard 240gr jsp) because of the bullet weight.

When I find a Ruger Alaskan .480 I will load the 420gr bullet to around 950 - 1000fps and that will be way more effective than the 44 mag load as a bear stopper. The only way you can stop a charging bear is with a CNS shot, and the 420gr bullet, even traveling slower than the 320gr bullet, has more momentum and will cause greater damage. I imagine it will pretty much penetrate a bear thru and thru regardless of what it encounters on the way. That's the BIG benefit of massive bullets, once they're launched they aren't easily stopped.

I realize a lot of this is counter intuitive and contrary to what we've mostly heard over the years, but I am confident of the principle and load my guns accordingly.

Did you see Vince Lupo's Africa results with Garrett ammo? This is heavy bullets loaded to moderate velocities, and it gives thru penetration on everything that walks. The rest is up to the shooter to disrupt the vitals.

I hope this is somehow helpful and that you pursue the idea and experiment with less than super high pressure loads for a while. Satisfy yourself that the bullet will do what you want it to, and that the load is safe to use.

Regards,

Grizz

I believe there were some recalls on certain lots of Lil'Gun, FYI... might want to contact Hodgdon if you still have the lot #s.

As sticky case is a high pressure sign. The steel is stretching enough that is snaps back in on the brass further than the brass will spring back on its own. I don’t want to fatigue my steel that much routinely. No pressure sign is 100% reliable in any gun, but that particular one is scary enough to make me back off. Increasing the case volume by seating a bullet out has a dramatic affect on pressure in a straight case. It likely accounts for why you can run above the normal maximums at all. In the .44 magnum, QuickLOAD shows a bullet seated out an extra 0.2 inches dropping a 24 grain H110 load’s pressure from 27.000 PSI to 18.000 PSI. Still, if you are sticking on extraction, back off.

The penetration topic is fascinating. Some years ago I worked with an engineer who had experimented with firing steel rods into concrete blocks. I think they were trying to figure out how deeply anchors could be placed in solid concrete this way? They found a velocity limit above which the rod’s tips would bend and divert and actually turn around in the concrete, penetrating less far. I believe they concluded that the random arrangement and hardness of stones had more ability to initiate deforming and bending at higher velocity.

Bullets are a bit different. First, I don’t think anyone has mentioned sectional density? I expect that if you took a heavy .45 and one of the long 6.5mm bullets that both had the same total length and similar nose shape, you would likely find penetration similar for both when launched at the same velocity.

The reports of excess velocity may resolve to a ballistics issue, but ballistics in a relatively incompressible fluid rather than air. Since resistance to motion in such a fluid will grow geometrically with velocity, I think it will turn out to be the case that the higher velocity bullet needs to enter the fluid with a faster rate of spin to keep stable. With inadequate spin, the bullet will have a tendency to cone and nutate off axis, taking on a helical path and probably, once having assumed such a motion that adds to its forward drag in the liquid, be unable to recover. Otherwise, assuming no obvious bullet deformation or measurable upset creating a larger diameter (which would also create additional drag), once the higher MV bullet had slowed in the liquie to the entry velocity of the lower MV bullet, it should have penetrated just as far from that point forward. If it doesn’t, then something has added to its drag: either shape change or motion difference. There isn’t much else for it to be.

Veral Smith wrote about bullet nose shapes that created optimal size wound channels in game. Not crushing so many blood cells that clotting and anti-bleeding chemistry is released, but not so small that they bleed out too slowly. In addition to penetration, that is what I would be aiming for in choosing a bullet velocity.

Lee,

It sounds like you've been fairly careful in your workup. You've learned a good lesson about different powders. But I still believe you're over loaded with the load you published.

Are you comparing results of loads in the same firearms? What gun was Taffin loading for? That can make a difference in results.

Were you using the same cases? Some cases will hold less water than others. This means that everything else being equal, that load will have higher pressure.

Some powders SHOULD NOT be reduced more than a certain percent for a given load because reduced loads can make dangerously high pressures. I believe H110 is one of those.

All these variables are why it's important to find pressure tested loads that are known to be safe, and work around those. Sometimes there is a lot of performance to be gained by handloading, but other times, especially with the new high power rounds, there's not a real benefit to hotrodding. A chronograph is useful in this regard, if your bullet never exceeds the velocity of a published pressure tested load, then you have some reason to believe that your loads are not over pressure.

The biggest benefit of higher velocity is flatter trajectory, but in a defense of life bear stopper load this isn't a consideration. Reliability is, and a reduced load usually increases rather than decreases reliability.

Back to the mag versus special question. I don't have this test on film, but you could load a 300gr hard cast in a 44 special, and a 200gr bullet in a 44 mag, and I think the hard cast would out-penetrate the mag. It will help if you give thought to the momentum of the bullets, and what happens to the bullets as they pass thru the media.

So for a bear stopper I carry 320gr hardcast in my 44 redhawk over 19gr of H110, which is under the book max for that load, but has plenty of penetration (compared to the standard 240gr jsp) because of the bullet weight.

When I find a Ruger Alaskan .480 I will load the 420gr bullet to around 950 - 1000fps and that will be way more effective than the 44 mag load as a bear stopper. The only way you can stop a charging bear is with a CNS shot, and the 420gr bullet, even traveling slower than the 320gr bullet, has more momentum and will cause greater damage. I imagine it will pretty much penetrate a bear thru and thru regardless of what it encounters on the way. That's the BIG benefit of massive bullets, once they're launched they aren't easily stopped.

I realize a lot of this is counter intuitive and contrary to what we've mostly heard over the years, but I am confident of the principle and load my guns accordingly.

Did you see Vince Lupo's Africa results with Garrett ammo? This is heavy bullets loaded to moderate velocities, and it gives thru penetration on everything that walks. The rest is up to the shooter to disrupt the vitals.

I hope this is somehow helpful and that you pursue the idea and experiment with less than super high pressure loads for a while. Satisfy yourself that the bullet will do what you want it to, and that the load is safe to use.

Regards,

Grizz

Grizz,

I believe John Taffin was using a gun with a 4 1/5 inch, possibly 5 1/2 inch barrell and I was using the 7 1/2 SRH so I expected higher velocities. They ended up about the same as long as I was using his load of 19 Grains H110. As soon as I moved the crimp to the first lube ring the felt recoil drastically was reduced so I am pretty sure that the post by unclenick explains the drop in recoil and was a drop in pressure as well.

As I have no way of pressure testing a load I think I will just drop back to a 405 CPB and use hodgdons loading data. There are things going on that I don't fully understand and the 405 is only 20 grains lighter than the 425 and Hodgdons load of 22.3 behind the 405 shows a max load at 1328 fps (although I have nat been able to match any of their data) I think I will just stick with that.

Thanks for your advise,

Lee.

[QUOTE=Lee Phillips]. . . I have nat been able to match any of their data) [QUOTE]

Hodgdon says the use a 7.7" barrel, but don't say it is on a revolver. I suspect it is not, and is on a pressure test barrel, since they give pressures. That means they have no barrel/cylinder gap, a source of enough pressure loss to have some effect on the ignition and pressure curve of the 296/H110 powder. I is also one cause of velocity variation from one revolver to the next with same barrel lengths or even of the same model.

Also, I have grown mistrustful of the absolute accuracy of many of the most common chronometers. The most accurate currently available seem to be the CED Millennium and the PV-21. The great Oehler 35P is no longer available. Unless you own one of these three, see if you can borrow one for a baseline comparison?

Here are some early results from my testing back in 2001 of the .480 Ruger SRH 7.5" w/ 2.5 Burris scope.

Hornady 400 grn. XTP, 19.6 grns. Hogdon Lil' Gun, WLP, 1166 A fps, 1207 ft lbs, 10 shots 1.6" @ 25 yards Maximum no sticky extraction.

Speer 400 grn. SPFN, 21.0 grns. Hogdon H110, WLP, 1136 A fps, 1146 ft lbs, 10 shots 1.5" @ 25 yards Maximum no sticky extraction.

Same load with 21.0 grains Win.296, 1127 A fps, 1128 ft lbs. 10 shots 1.65" @ 25 yards. H110 & Win. 296 are same powder with normal lot variations between them. Near Maximum.

CPBC 390 grn LFN PB, 20.5 Win. 296, WLP, 1158 A fps, 1161 ft lbs. 10 shots 1.25" @ 25 yards. Maximum, good extraction.

Most powerful load:
CPBC 370 grn. LFN PB, 26.0 grns. Win.296, WLP, 1374 A fps, 1551 ft lbs, 10 shots 1.25" @ 25 yards Maximum approach with caution.

Most accurate load:
Same as above with 25.5 grains of Win.296, WLP, 1342 A fps, 1480 ft lbs, 10 shots 0.75" @ 25 yards. Near Maximum

The .480 Ruger is happiest with near maximum loads, those pushing 325 - 400 grain bullets at or above 1000 fps.Going above the safe maximum published data degrades accuracy and risks injury. During my testing the Burris posa-lock scope completely disassembled from recoil.

A Gary Reeder Ultimate .480 Ruger built on a BH frame requires slightly greater powder charges to reach the same velocities, but is throated differently and has strong 5 shot cylinder.

Any of the loads listed will best .45-70 factory ammo performance. It is simply not necessary to hotrod the .480 Ruger cartridge. This is one of the most consistent, accurate and useful big bore cartridges ever designed, and about all the average joe can handle. Mr. Taffin wrote me a note that he shot entirely through a bison with the .480, so that's good enough performance for me. Once I get the opportunity, I'll try it myself.

As always, I can't be responsible for conditions beyond my control. These loads were safe in my revolvers, but you should always reduce any loads and work back up checking for excessive pressure signs.

Lee and Nick

http://www.empresspublications.com/stuff/articl5.jpg

Here is an illustration from an online source, I lost the link. This illustrates the theory of how the bullet works. I admit that I don't know that there is irrefutable scientific proof that this is correct, but I accept this idea as the working understanding of what's probably going on.

That said, there are lots of proposals about what bullets will penetrate as well as, or better than, the 525gr PileDriver, but so far NO ONE HAS DONE IT.

So, a friendly challenge to anyone who's game. Just line up the 1 gallon water jugs and see how many you can penetrate with your loads. I'd love to see better penetration than I got, and to know the circumstances.

Regards,

Grizz

PS: I know reloaders who prefer LilGun in .357 but won't use it in .44. Something to do with the pressures vs H110, and the velocities attained at those pressures. I don't know the exact details, but I think there's evidence that case size and other factors influence powder choice to a great extent.

I think one of Ruger's benefits is long cylinders, so we can use bullets that seat long and give more case room. This has to be balanced with the fact that H110/W296 (same same) are very sensitive to excess case volume, and need to operate in a certain pressure range to be safe. Another reason to stay as close as possible to factory pressure tested loads in the modern high capacity hand gun loads.

[QUOTE=Lee Phillips]. . . I have nat been able to match any of their data) [QUOTE]

Hodgdon says the use a 7.7" barrel, but don't say it is on a revolver. I suspect it is not, and is on a pressure test barrel, since they give pressures. That means they have no barrel/cylinder gap, a source of enough pressure loss to have some effect on the ignition and pressure curve of the 296/H110 powder. I is also one cause of velocity variation from one revolver to the next with same barrel lengths or even of the same model.

Also, I have grown mistrustful of the absolute accuracy of many of the most common chronometers. The most accurate currently available seem to be the CED Millennium and the PV-21. The great Oehler 35P is no longer available. Unless you own one of these three, see if you can borrow one for a baseline comparison?

Nick,

Mine is a Chrony so I will try to borrow one of the others. Thanks for the info, I think you pretty well cleared up my confusion as to why the felt recoil dropped and the cases continued to eject so easily until I reached 23 grains H110.

Thanks alot,

Lee

I used an old Oehler 33 chronograph with new skyscreens for my load development work on the .480 Ruger. I was astounded when my results came within a few feet per second of Taffin's. For all practical purposes the loads generated the same results, unusual, given the differences in techniques, altitude, instrumentation, etc. That's why I wrote a letter describing the seeming consistency of the .480 Ruger.

The inconsistency inherent in H110 and Winchester 296 has much to do with load density, primer heat and duration of burn, and crimp strength. If the load density isn't within the "sweet" spot for a given cartridge/firearm system, the pressure curve will be erratic.

H110/W296 always requires the hottest available primers, just changing to a standard pistol primer in a large case causes hangfires. Generally, the Winchester Large Pistol Primer is designed to ignite W296 and I have experienced no problems with its use, but any large pistol magnum primer should suffice.

Primers must be seated to the bottom of the pocket, so they receive the full blow of the firing pin. I always use a uniformer tool to flatten the bottom of the pocket and clean it of residue before reloading to insure it's seated firmly. High primers can cause eratic behavior if the pocket is slightly loose.

Crimp strength is absolutely critical to gaining performance with H110/W296, a weak or inconsistent crimp between rounds causes extreme variation in velocity and can lead to hangfires. Only a roll crimp will produce the desired degree of bullet retention to build initial ignition pressure and insure a complete burn. This is absolutely critical, I have experimented with light or no crimping and produced hangfires and extreme variations in velocity due to partial powder buring. In some extreme cases, clumps of unburned W296 were found in the bore, or on the shooting bench after discharge. The closer to maximum a charge is, the more important the crimp becomes as part of the ignition system, wherein it works to retard the bullet until flame progression is well established. This requires that each case be trimmed as close to the same length as possible, and that the crimp be rolled into a canelure grove as deeply as possible without bulging the brass.

The cylinder/barrel gap should not play a significant roll in the performance of H110/W296 if the primer and crimp are correct, as the entire charge will be alight and mostly consumed by the time the bullet passes the gap. It is only when the charge has failed to properly initiate before passing from the cylinder that the sudden drop in pressure makes matters worse.

At least that has been my experience.

Jumping in on the subject of penetration... Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that when using hard cast lead bullets, that penetration actually increased with increased velocity. I do believe it increased with velocity until around 1600fps, and then penetration dropped with increasing velocity. Won't the 300gr. bullet going 1300fps out-penetrate the same 300gr. bullet going 1000fps?

Jim

with velocity, you reach a point of hydraulic negation when you use a bullet that doesn't deform. In effect the velocity of the bullet can exceed the cavitation rate. The fluid becomes compressed and momentarily acts as a solid. That is how hydraulics use the incompressibility of fluids to move loads with less energy input. I believe when bullets deform, this is also a factor. So long story short, yes there is a point where velocity cuts penetration but you would have factor in bullet shape, tissue density , alloy, and position of the body in relation to large bony structures which would alter the compression ratio. the lower velocity within the envelope would penetrate deeper because it would not have as much resistance from the "wall " effect.

Jumping in on the subject of penetration... Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that when using hard cast lead bullets, that penetration actually increased with increased velocity. I do believe it increased with velocity until around 1600fps, and then penetration dropped with increasing velocity. Won't the 300gr. bullet going 1300fps out-penetrate the same 300gr. bullet going 1000fps?

Jim

That's the 2cent question. I hope you try it and show us the results. The only way to satisfy the question it to shoot both loads into something and see what happens.

You might be right about the velocities you selected. How about adding a third test and shoot a 300g bullet at top load velocities for a 3-way comparison.

Water jugs work admirably for this experiment because most of the unseen variables are eliminated, and you get a straight up comparison.

I hope you will do it and post the video.

Regards,

Grizz

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

My brother has one of those 480s and likes it. I think the 44 mag will take care of what you are up against. H 110 is a finicky power and a very good one. I do think you should limit the load to about 20 grains. That is my best advice,

I think it is difficult to say what is needed for a charging bear. I hit one about a dozen years ago that came out of nowhere with my 44 loaded with a 265 grain Hornedys and full loads of h 110 and the bear rolled over and with that I shot it again and that was it. I heard about a man who shot his 375 H&H in a similar situation and ended up mauled.

There is no way you can compare a 44 to a 375 H&H! As to Garret and the penetration idea, well a big 458 delivers much more pressure on a big animal and it is this pressure that shocks the animal, so deep penetration is not all there is to the picture.

I guess the 480 would be a better gun in bear country, but I think the way you hit the animal is very important! The 375 shooter might have aimed for the bears head and the bullet glanced off; I do not know because I never heard about the way it went, just the man was seriously injured. What I know I did was I reacted by instinct to hit a charging animal out my path, so I shoot across the bear and my shot landed in the bears front shoulder and that knocked her over, then I was in control.

I would go with the advice here about the load because I seems reasonable to me and what you are doing seems a little dangerous

Hodgdon's latest Annual Manual has data for the 420gr Beartooth LFNGC, pretty much mirrors what I have found to be safe in my my 5" RB using the Beartooth 420gr WFNGC. Lil'Gun is my goto powder for this round, but H110/WW296 and the H4227 loads do about the same thing, which is a a very bit less than 1200fps out of my short, really about 4" as a result of porting, barrel. The .480 is a fairly high pressure round as far as revolvers go, when you go over pressure it seems to do so in a pretty big hurry...primer pockets get loose in a hurry when you go too far...no leakage but with noticably little effort involved in seating using the Hornady brass that I am using. 18-20grs of Lil'Gun will give you what you want, I consider 20grs the MAX. I have recently been shooting the 18gr load, which still gives me about 1100fps, because I do not have a problems getting through a box of 50 rounds without reprecussions after shooting.

21grs of Lil'Gun behind the 420gr WFNGC is too much in my revolver, that was my original load that has been proven to be a bit too warm in hindsight.

If you want a REAL eye opener you need to shoot some of the 420gr max loads out of a Encore, the velocity and recoil are both extreme.

Hey good to see you back!

I'll echo the comments and add my own.

I'm not shooting the .480, but starting to handload for the .500 JRH, which is pretty well in the same class.

It does seem like these guns go from managable, to 'a real handful,' at about the 1100-1200fps range. Doesn't seem to matter much what the bullet weight is, either, within reason. I don't know if it's the muzzle blast or what, but things just get uncomfortable above 1200fps, it seems.

These tools work very well tossing a heavy slug between 900 and 1200fps and are fun to hunt with, without being punishing to the shooter.

Unnecessary? Probably... but they are fun toys.

Went to the range this evening, had a good outing with the .480. I was able to keep a cyinder full in a 3" bull at 25 yards offhand for 8 of the 10 groups. The load will go into an inch off a rest, but my unsupported arms are no rest. :(

A cylinder or two through the M617 between .480's helps to keep things in perspective, tonight the .41 with full power (210gr) loads was the "light" shooter.

Dang, it feels good to keep most all of them in the black.