I was wondering what your thoughts are on a recent purchase of mine.... It's the first one for me, and I was curious if I received a semi-decent deal on this rifle; or if I didn't.....

The rifle was manufactured in 1896 with a 40xxx serial number. It is in antique condition, showing an overall dark, weathered look to the wood. The bore is "good" with maybe 40-50% blue remaining on the steel and it has an octagon barrel(with the ammo holder underneath). It also has one of those sights that flip up. I think it's called a tang sight? There's some wood worn down on the bottom of the front grip, but the most amazing feature of this weapon is that the rear stock has wear on one side from riding in a saddle for a *long* time. I purchased the weapon off http://www.collectorsfirearms.com and talked them down from $2350 to $2100.

I realize I could have gotten a nearly mint example for the same price from the 1920's with a bigger bore, but real cowboy usage seemed to me to be extremely rare. I'm just curious what your guys thoughts are on this?

Thanks

Darryl

P.S. I attached a jpg

I wouldn't have it reblued. I'm not into winchesters, but they are becoming collector items. Did you buy it as an investment or are you going to shoot it?

I wouldn't have it reblued. I'm not into winchesters, but they are becoming collector items. Did you buy it as an investment or are you going to shoot it?

I bought it more as an investment, but the thought of its history will most likely prompt me to fire it again. Any knowledgeable Winchester aficionados out there?

*Bueller?*

I agree with faucettb, I wouldn't reblue it either. If you want to shoot it again, Have it checked by a gunsmith to make sure it is safe to shoot. I would limit it to Cowboy action loads and use lead bullets as not to add wear to the rifling like a jacketed bullet would. Looks like a wonderful rifle you have there, too bad it can't tell you all where it has been and what it has done. :cool:

Hi Darryl;

If your gun is all original then it was a good deal. If it is what you wanted it is a good deal.

I have a few questions: How long is the barrel? Measure from the back of chamber to muzzle.
What type of butt plate does it have? Cresent steel, military carbine type, or a flat one as shotguns have.
What type front sight? A flat blade, a bead type, or one that folds down.
Does the barrel have a "Nickel Steel" stamp on it anywhere? If Nickel Steel is not on the barrel, does it have the rare "Extra Steel" stamp?

If you decide to disassemble the gun You should know that the screwdriver slot in the end of the magazine serves no known purpose and does NOT unscrew.

Any alteration what ever will reduce the value. Rebluing will turn a $2000 arm into a $500 arm instantly. Dont do it.

An interesting "find"

Jim

Hi Jim,

The barrel measures about 25.5 inches. The butt plate is a curved steel one. The curve to fit the shoulder correctly I guess. The front sight is the bead??? It kind of looks like a miniature jet-ski, or old car hood from the side with a piece of gold-colored metal on top facing the user.

I'm not sure about the stamp. It has a piece of metal about the size of a stamp halfway down the barrel which says, I believe, "Marble".

Thanks for the good advice. Yes, I would never restore a weapon like this because it loses it's hard-earned history then.

Do you have any suggestions on what kind of oil, if any, should go on the wood and metal to preserve it's present state?

Regards

-- Darryl

The barrel should have the letters "Nickel Steel" or
"Extra Steel" on it someplace.

I use a product by the name of Howards Feed and Wax on my old guns. A thin coat over the entire surface, wood, metal, and all, gives it a good shine and protects. Howards is made in California and can be found in almost any antique store. It contains citrus oils and bee's wax amoung other things and is easy to apply.

A rifle like you have is the best example of old guns because it shows use and excites the imagination.

Jim

It has the Nickel Steel stamp. It also has one that says Marble, I found out that's the sight.

Thanks for the tip on the Wax. I will use it.

Darryl

I think you have a good shooter.
Without the nickel steel metal in the barrel you would want to shoot cast bullets only in the rifle. With a nickel barrel you can shoot almost anything that you want such as factory jacketed bullets and handloads that are kept to medium or lighter. I certainly would not shoot maximum charge handloads in an older rifle.

The only optional features that I see in the photo are the rear sight blank and the Lyman tang sight. So two extras are better than no extras. The wear on the stock and fore end give it a good deal of "charactor" and are fine clues as to it's previous life.

The hammer, lever, and buttplate were originally case colored and not blued. It should have a "heart" checkered hammer spur. It is called heart checkering because the checkering pattern is heart shaped.

The letters in the serial number may be written in a form of script but about that number range is where they began using the block letters that remained throughout production.

That is about all I can tell you without actually looking at the rifle.

Jim Bledsoe

Winchester '94 collector
Winchester Arms Collectors Association

.

This may sound crazy, but what is a handload? OK, I assume one is when you purchase .30 WCF bullet shells then fill them yourself with a certain amount of smokeless powder. Is the maximum charge more than what would come in a manufacturers bullet? If so, what would it rate in caliber terms approximately, .35? Btw, the serial number is actually 49xxx. Thanks

I think you have a good shooter.
Without the nickel steel metal in the barrel you would want to shoot cast bullets only in the rifle. With a nickel barrel you can shoot almost anything that you want such as factory jacketed bullets and handloads that are kept to medium or lighter. I certainly would not shoot maximum charge handloads in an older rifle.

The only optional features that I see in the photo are the rear sight blank and the Lyman tang sight. So two extras are better than no extras. The wear on the stock and fore end give it a good deal of "charactor" and are fine clues as to it's previous life.

The hammer, lever, and buttplate were originally case colored and not blued. It should have a "heart" checkered hammer spur. It is called heart checkering because the checkering pattern is heart shaped.

The letters in the serial number may be written in a form of script but about that number range is where they began using the block letters that remained throughout production.

That is about all I can tell you without actually looking at the rifle.

Jim Bledsoe

Winchester '94 collector
Winchester Arms Collectors Association

.

JBledsoe
I think you have a good shooter. Without the nickel steel metal in the barrel you would want to shoot cast bullets only in the rifle.

Jim, Welcome to the forum. As you may know, all .30 W.C.F. chambered 94's had nickel steel barrels as did barrels for the .25-35 and .32 W.S. wether they were marked that way or not. Nickel steel was a requirement for these barrels to contain the 35,000+ p.s.i. chamber pressures that these early smokeless cartridges developed. Renneberg's book "The Winchester Model 94", confirms this.

zephyr424,
A handload is taking a cartridge case (fired or new) and assembling the primer, powder, and bullet to make a competed cartridge. The powder charge can vary in weight depending in the burning rate of the powder.

In the early .30 W.C.F. cartridges, Winchester used 30 grains by weight (7,000 grains in a lb) of "DuPont .30 Caliber Smokeless" powder (thus the other name .30-30). In the early 1900's they switched to "Lightning" in 23 gr. charges. "Lightning" burned faster so a lesser charge weight was required. Both of these powders are obsolete.

Today there are a handful of different powders one can use to reload the.30-30. If you want to learn more, the best thing to do would be to purchase a reloading manual at your local sports store wher they would sell reloading components (brass, primers, bullets, powder.)

Congratulations on obtaining a neat piece of Winchester history.

John

Thanks for the information John. If you or anyone else can tell me the difference between the light, med, full loads I'd appreciate it. And how do they compare to the manufactured ones? Thanks

zephyr424,

To me a "light" .30-30 load would be one that develops .32-20 ballistics ......100-120 gr. bullet @1,200 f.p.s. The early "Short Range" .30 W.C.F. cartridges are an example of this. They were discontinued in the early 1920's.

Using a cast bullet in that weight range and loading it over a small charge of faster burning smokeless powder (i.e. 5.5/231 or 6.0/4756, Universal, Unique or Trail Boss) will do the job nicely. Unfortunately, no one manufactures a commercial version of this recipe currently.

A Mid Range .30-30 loading would be one that uses 150 to 170 gr. bullets @ 1,500 f.p.s. or thereabouts. The current "Cowboy" .30-30 cartridges are the closest commercial loadings. PMC Cowboy ammunition is an example:
http://www.pmcammo.com/cowboy-action.php
Your dealer can order this for you if he does not already carry it.

Full Power ammunition is made by several different companies....Winchester, Remington, Hornady, Federal, etc.
This is the type of ammunition normally stocked on dealers' shelves. The most popular bullet weights are 150 and 170 grs. although Hornady does offer a 160 gr. and Federal has a 125 gr. loading as well. Standard ballistics run in the 2200 to 2600 f.p.s. area depending on the bullet weight.

Have fun!
John

That's great information. The more grain, the better fps....

That's great information. The more grain, the better fps....

Generall speaking. More accurately, the more grains of a GIVEN POWDER equals more fps; to a point. Exceed maximum charge and something besides the bullet will be center of attention. :eek: Generally the more grains of BULLET WEIGHT equals lesser fps.

To add to what Mr Kort said, PMC is now out of business, but Ultramax loads cowboy .30-30 as well, 165 Gr. @ 1170fps.
Andy

http://www.ultramaxammunition.com/cowboy.php