I happened to have a great deal of respect for John Linebaugh......and his concept of heavy hard cast bullets at a reasonable velocity.
Now.......Let's take the .500 Linebaugh with a 500 gr bullet at 1200'/"! .....John's load data-Cartridges of the World-7th Edition.
I ouote from a no less a well known and respected person, Frank Barnes....."The .500 Linebaugh should find a strong following in the wilds of Alaska or the plains of Africa, where it could be used as a primary hunting gun or a backup."........Cartridges of the World-7th Edition.
Since this forum is an excellent sounding board for handgun concept and ammo.......I would like to hear your comments on the validity of Barnes statement and/or your opinion on general hunting with the above mentioned load.
Regards, James

James,
please elaborate on the round.

thanks

Hello Friend Griz.....Sorry, I had left out the weight of the bullet!.......Regards, James

Works for me. The bison went down pretty easily with a .500 diameter 440gr. bullet at about 1,000fps.

Thanks for the come-back, Mike! I think most people do not realize the lethal potential of the heavy bullet at a reasonable velocity!
As long as the bullet has a good design......meplat area, hardness (but not brittle), etc. ....it will drive deep, destroy tissue, and break large bones!
Regards, James

I'd better study up on the differences between the 500 Line and the 500 Smith. Don't know much of the recoil, after I sold my superrdhwk 454 - did not want to shoot another big bore revolver. My problem was not with accuracies but repeated practice shots with big hard cast and the carry weight.
My apologies that I do not have any experience on this round. Nonetheless my interest and amazement with big bores in recorded one or two shot kills is still there.
Speculation is that the Linebaugh is a bisley like grip frame-proven recoil handler. Weight - must be like 4#'s- perhaps a 5 shot cylinder, barrel length would guess 6", prolly be chrom moly and not SS
Youre studies are valid with meplat and penetration-I've personally used them to take down Grizz in the .45-70

Don't mind me, most around here just like to jaw and I obviously picked up the behaviour--wheres the coffee?!

Am reconsidering a bigbore after all the advertisements on the outdoor channel and gunrags.

just ramblin'

As I get older, my brain is drying up! What I am looking for is not comments about the handgun itself, but rather comments about the load......a .50 caliber bullet, weighing 500 grains at a modest velocity of 1200 ft.per.sec. (John's suggested load).
The more I play with hard cast bullets, the more I become convinced many are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to velocity. Velocity is important as far as trajectory is concerned within reasonable hunting ranges......say situations like heavy shrub, woodland hammocks, swamps......all of which I consider out to around 100 yards. Beyond that, other flatter shooting calibers would be best. With the above .500 Linebaugh load the trajectory would be about like......zero at 75 yards, about 2" high at 50 yards, and about 4" low at 100 yards......well within a kill zone for a dead on hold. What amazes me is the pentration and tissue damage from these well designed (meplat area again!) heavies will do at modest velocity.
Todd Corder, an associate of John Linebaugh, shot that Angus bull with the Dixie Terminator (.730"-730 gr hard cast heat treated solid) at 1200'/".......and the damage was quite a lot, including smashing through the skull and busting up neck bones. here we have the same big bullet at a modest velocity.....does not matter what gun put it in the air! The damage to the Bison that Mike shot was impressive.....and it put him down! Then looking at some of the old time black powder thumpers......heavy bullet with modest velocity.
Regards, James

shot two buffalo with mine now one using a 440 lfn at about 1200 fps and the other using a 480 lfn at about 1000 both broke both shoulders and exited and were one shot kills.

The 500 is comparable with a 50/70 rifle load. Mike Venturino prefers the 50/70 for hunting and hes the expert on the big bore old style rifles. He says the 50 works better than the 45s on game. The pistol I almost bought some years ago was a short barrelled Bisley Ruger. It was light as the chambers and barrel have less weight. I would say get Magaporting as it really works well on single actions.

There is/was two reasons for this thread. First was to get some real feedback on the load for the .500 Linebaugh......500 gr bullet at 1200'/".....in whatever gun. Years ago, I owned a Sharps in 50-70 and now wish I had still had it.....and am thinking about having NEF fit a 50 S&W barrel on one of my NEF rifle actions to play with.
The second reason was aimed at what I see as a problem with shooter/hunters.....namely how they perceive something. Dixie Slugs has developed three loads for the 20 ga 3" Mag with a .625"-500 gr hard cast heat treated slug/bullet with a very large meplat area 1050'/", 1200'/", and 1450'/"), all for rifled barrels. Todd Corder tested the 1200'/" load and posted the results on Dixie's forum........but no real market interest so far? The 1200'/" load was developed for lightweight guns like the NEF Tracker (5 1/2 pounds). That little gun is very handy and accurate!
The point here is simple......if a hard cast 500 gr slug/bullet is flying (50 or 62 cal) through the air and will work on heavy game.....it does not matter what launched it.......see the point?
Now.......I don't mean for this to be a tricky/loaded question, but I just can't see all the support for a heavy bullet in revolver and then have the ha-ha's when the same type load is put in a lightweight shotgun with a rifled barrel.....maybe you all can answer that for me?
Regards, James

A little background on the Linebaugh 500

John Linebaugh's 500 was intended to be a ballistic duplicate of the 50/70 gov't. It's bullet diameter is .512 and the barrel dimension is .510 groove .500 Bore.

The primary bullet weight and loads are a 435 grain at 1,000 fps and 1,250 fps. The latter is essentially a 50/70 but can be placed on your hip.

Chamber pressures of the 1,250 load is in the mid 20,000 PSI range. I won't be specific but John can, feel free to call him. The cartridge and Linebaugh Custom gun is capable of fully safe 35,000 PSI, however John sees these as maximum or proof loads having a 2x safety margin. Although completely safe in his guns, the question remains, Why run pressures to the max for "performance" when the work gets done easily at less pressure?

Yes the 500 Linebaugh is capable of more, with the addition of 450 and 470 grain bullets. Yes, Grizzly cartridge offers a 500 gn load for the 500 Linebaugh at 1,150 fps and the maximum pressure is less than the 35,000 mark.

As far as the pistol platform goes, they are built on a Ruger Bisley. The barrel lengths are 4.75 and 5.5" With weights around 48 oz for a 5 shot 500 Linebaugh. The package of the 500 Linebaugh cartridge and "fivegun" is really a belt holster weapon. Can that be said of the 500 S&W X-frame?





"Most people nowadays don't realize we have the technonogy to launch a 500 grain projectile a 1,100 miles per hour, at less than 10,000 psi of chamber pressure." JL





And the case isn't made of brass, it's made of paper, or plastic.

Yep a 12 ga. shotgun.





Now we look at the Dixie 20ga. A .625, 500 gn bullet at 1,200 fps.

I'm certain that this load doesn't register anywhere near 25,000 psi, James can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm betting less than half that. i.e. Less than 12,500 psi. That is the gift of bore capacity.
Plus, the average shooter is more accurate with a long gun than a handgun. Right?
This is something you could put into your son or daughters hands, in the form of a single shot fully rifled shotgun, that they can apply much easier than a 500 Linebaugh or a 500 S&W pistol. They could shoot more and hit more, with more precision than a handgun. Right?

So, If it's good enough for them, why can't it be good enough for me also?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to give up my pistol anytime soon. BUT I will certainly not discount the hardcast lead bullet, we know works so well in handguns, when it is applied to shotguns. Or would we be better off to call them what they really are in their fully rifled variations. Ultra low pressure, plastic cased, Big Bore Rifles.

Thanks

Todd Corder

With the fine help of Todd, maybe my point is clearer. In this case we used well known killer of big game........nanely the .500 Linebaugh with a 500 gr hard cast bullet load at 1200'/"! I am sure everyone would agree that is quite a load! Then we compare that load with another load that the bullets was only about .125" larger, same weight and design, at the same velocity.....ergo a 20 bore in a rifled barrel! Ballistics very, very close! Yet, few would accept the fact the animal would never know the difference!
No, I'm not saying put up your big handguns.......by no means! What I am saying is shooter/hunters need to do a little more thinking about what they perceive as killing power related to how something looks.
Now.....if you want to really make people think.....how about a .730"-730 gr hard cast heat treated bullet at 1200'/".....run that one through Peter Thornily calculations here on Beartooth and see what turns up.........and yes, it's in a 12 ga 3" plastic hull and fired in a 20" Hastings barrel. Anyone want to comments on that load? Remember my old saying?...."Quality is as the Customer Perceives"
Regards, James

James,
I understood the original point behind your first post. You yourself have said it, some people just can not get past the launching platform. Is it the shotgun itself or the plasitc hull that locks them up?

What might help would be for one of these hunting shows to use a slug gun on the same type of large game hunt that they would have used a large bore handgun. That way, the word might get out.

Granted, it isn't at all as glamourous using a 12 ga. slug to kill a Buffalo/Bison as it would be to do it with a .500 Linebaugh to the great majority of people, but then again, how many guys can afford an 870 compared to affording a custom .500 Linebaugh or have to hunt shotgun only?

Correct! However, this perception (or lack of it ) goes even further. How about the fellow that accepts the fact that a certain handgun with a certain caliber and load is adequate for some type of big game........then will laugh at you if you show up with a light rifle shooting the same load?
Here again, I am not putting handguns down, as I am an avid handgun hunter......but this attitude does exist!
Could it be the head thing of using a handgun?......more glamorous, as friend said?
My point here is not to tout one type of gun over another, but rather try to get the shooter/hunter to realize once an equal bullet is in the air, it does not matter what put it there .....it will perform the same on game.
Regards, James

But this is the Handgun Section. Bullets are bullets, I agree, but the whole point to it is the challenge of using a handgun. Ive got a .510 GNR that can match the .500 Linebaugh and I would use it any day of the week over a shotgun even though they are capable of equal power. I dont know of anyone laughing at a .50 caliber rifle of any kind. Handguns do have the limitations of shorter range, typically, than rifles and that is part of the challenge. I am a handgun hunter almost exclusively and take a little offense to hearing it touted as "glamorous". More like "d@mn hard". Point taken, however, about the shotgun slug doing the work with less cost than these darn custom pistols. Better yet, compare the sabot slugs that will outdo 45/70 rounds in your 12ga. But I digress again, and bring up the fact that this is the handgun section and this is the wrong place.

It's more than that. There are gunwriters who go on and on about how some such chambering is effective in a handgun - then trash it as barely useful in a rifle.

Almost nobody writes about shotgun hunting with solids, except the mandantory article each fall on whatever new loads the big manufacturers have recently put out for the slug hunters.

Perhaps alot of it goes to the fact that pistol rounds use faster burning powders and therefore require less barrel to burn completely. So if you have a pistol with a respectable barrel length it will give you darn near what you would get out of a rifle with twice the barrel. That would make it kind of lame as far as rifle terms go. A 243 at 100 yards has 1409 ft.lbs of energy compared to a .500 Smith with 1610ft.lbs of energy. With a longer barrel for the 500 it would probably add some ft.lbs. but nothing major. The 243 is a pretty mediocre rifle round and the 500 is pretty much balls out for a pistol. I could see this as part of the problem. These are different technologies. I dont read shotgun mags to know what the do or dont write about so I cant discuss that with any known fact. Maybe it has something to do with the limited number of states that using shotgun hunting only. Do you know how many states are shotgun only? Im not sure.

Most straight-walled magnum handgun cartridges gain 300 - 500 fps when going from a handgun to a rifle.

My .45 Colt loads go from about 1300fps in a 7.5" Bisley Blackhawk, to over 1700fps in a Marlin 1894. This with 300gr. bullets.

Don't think I'd call those ballistics "lame." :D

I think it has more to do with there being more gunwriters, than there are interesting new topics to write about. They have to fill the gun mags with something, even if it's drivel, or plainly incorrect.

The question and point of my post was to show how shooter/hunters see things different, when they a really the same......in this case two loads both having a 500 gr bullet at the same velocity. It had nothing to do with pushing one type of firearm over another. It had nothing to do with different types and designs of bullets.
Some of the replies only point out what I have been saying.....total lack of clear perception!
As for 45-70's the poster refered me to.....Have you ever seen a 45-70 push a 730 gr bullet 1450'/"?.....not hardly!
Now......I have been handgun hunting since 1956! I am an avid handgun hunter, but I have no fantasy about them!
I posed what I thought was a ligit question, with hopes to get people thinking instead of being swallowed up in pure hype.
What I was speaking of in no way puts down handgun hunting.
I might add that the use of shotguns in Shotgun-Only states is a very small percent of shotgun use nationwide.
What more can I say? Regards, James

True. They get paid to promote the hot new thing. Still, the most powerful handgun cartridge out of a rifle is not going to stack up to something as common as a 30-06, or 7mm Mag and they are only moderate rifle cartridges. You step ut to the 416 Rigby or 460 Weatherby Mag and they are down right anemic. The gun writers get paid to say those things to make them out to more than they are, no doubt about it. I cant remember what new smaller caliber rifle round that came out that some gun writer was claming could take any North American game and it was only .270 in caliber if I remember correctly. Moose? Brown Bear? Elk... maybe. Its all about money. I like handguns and hunt with them. I like rifles and sometimes hunt with them. But when I do, they use their respective rounds. A pistol round will do better in a rifle, and typically a rifle round does poorer in a pistol. And shotgun slugs are steadily approaching straightwall cartridge specs and sometimes surpassing them. Its all about trying to make something into another. Trying to streatch the most out of your shooting platform is a common approach, but in the long run it is what it is.

I was thinking of some articles I once read extolling the virtues of a .30-30 in a handgun.... and at the time, you couldn't get a gunwriter to put something good about .30-30 rifles in print, well, at gunpoint :p (sorry for the bad pun).

Mr. Gates hit the nail on the head.... we keep thinking cartridges, instead of bullets delivered.

The current trend toward super-powerful handguns (seems hard to imagine that you can get a .300 Win Mag in a handgun, but you can) really blurs the lines.

Can't wait to try out that Tri-Ball load this spring.... oink!!!

The reason I have always like to hunt with a hangun?.......well, it's just fun! Now, That's an silly answer on my part, but true....and I have better ones! Hunting with a handgun has forced me to be a better woodsman! Most of my hunting has always been in heavy cover like swamps and hammocks. Ranges were close and some of the game could bite back. I worked with many calibers.....looking for a balance of bullet weight, velocity, and controlable recoil for fast shots. From the experience of 50 years. I have decided on certain calibers, bullet design, and handguns....a choice that would rwn cross grain with some of todays thinking. I co-designed all the bullets that Rock Island Ballistics has........all hard cast heat treated. I learned the hard way that the single most important factor in handgun hunting was bulllet design.......namely meplat area and weight, rather than velocity! In the early days, I saw first hand game that ran a great distance after a good hit with certain bullet designs. All was traced back to the lack of meplat area! It is interesting that this same applies to modern centerfire offering! If a jackect bullet does not expand properly (again meplat area)....there is plenty of penetration, but lacks "Put-Down".
So.....bullet design applies to any projectile, no matter what it's fired from.
We return again to the purpose of my post..... perception!
Talking about perception (or the lack of it) is like walking through a mine field! One miss step, and your butt is ant food!
Until the subject is approached with an open mind......we will get nowhere. These people that stand ready to pick apart every post on the subject should spend some time designing bullets, designing cartridges, designing new concept in cartrudge designs, designing molds, and the entire ball of wax........and foremost of all, doing a lot of Gut-Pile Analysis.
Regards, James

Before the advent of cordite the Brits had some pretty potent rounds to handle some pretty potent animals. The .500-3 1/4 b.p.e. is one of them and the .500 Linebaugh roughly duplicates it minus a few feet per second. The Ely load was 136 grains of black powder behind their propietery 340 grain copper caped bullet. Other makers had 500 grain loads just slightly faster than the Linebaugh . I cant find the velocitys of these sorry i would like to have compared them. A modern day pistol round using smokeless powder almost duplicats a world renowed stopping round is a testement to mans ingenuity. I would imagine recoil is pretty feirce as i compare it too 425 grain .475 hand loads that are all i can handle punching paper or busting rocks.I just want to add this , if it cant be killed with a .475 get a rifle, because your in Jurassic Park.Hard Cast