New to the forum, not particularly new to reloading. I started reloading over 30 years ago for my .300 winnie. I am trying to shake of old habits and produce a better end product. I have been partial full length sizing for a couple of years, but I am having concentricity issues. I'm upgrading my Lyman Orange Crusher to a Forster Co-Ax and I've been thinking about moving to bushing dies, but it seems to me that unless you also do outside neck turning, bushing dies might not do much for you. I am currently loading for .22-250; .25-06; .270 win; .300 winnie. Guns are used strictly for hunting and fun at the range- I'm not into any metallic cartridge competition shooting.

Apologies- I was interupted before I fihished. My question is: Is my thinking on outside neck turning correct? I currently do not outside neck turn, and I'm wondering if to get any benefit out of bushing style dies, do I need to do the neck turning as well?

John

Welcome to the forum.

The outside neck turning makes the smaller neck rings a necessity because you've typically taken the neck thickness down from 0.014" wall to 0.011" wall. A standard neck die may not be able to squeeze it down far enough from fireformed size to contact the expander or grasp a bullet adequately. However, by removing the expander, the rings can also be used to adjust case neck tension in a normal load.

Thank you for responding. What I was thinking about was grip. I think if you do not neck turn and do run the case over an expander die, the inside of the neck is round, and the grip is whatever the expander die is plus a small amount of elastic recovery of the brass. But then you, I think, have more of a concentricity issue because of the expander button being able to move the neck slightly. Wall thickness variations may also induce concentricity error.

I think if you used a bushing or collet die- you should reduce concentricity error as the neck has got to align with the die (which I hope is close to perfect). However, if there are variations in the thickness of the neck, since you now have the outside of the neck round, then the inside of the neck can't be round. I think that may cause grief with the grip.

Does this make sense? or am I tilting at windmills again?

john

The expander is round (at least, in cross-section), so it will make the inside of the neck pretty round, it just may not be on the center line of the case exterior. The other thing that can happen is the uneven neck thickness can pull the whole case off center as it withdraws over the expander. This can happen because the rest of the case becomes loose in the die after the neck is withdrawn. So the neck can not only be off-axis, but its axis may not be parallel to axis of the exterior of the case.

In some die sets you can set up the depth of the expander so it is just below the neck. The Lee die has a very long expanding section which allows this. By using an expander that starts to expand the base of the neck before the mouth is fully withdrawn from the die, the expansion commences before the case is free to tilt, and this keeps the neck inside diameter centered.

If runout of bullets seated in cases are your main issue, try using the Redding Competition Bullet Seating dies. I found these dies, which align cases and bullets in the die body independently of the press alignment, take out much of the error. My .30-06 competition seater reduced runout from 0.005" inch average (this was before I owned the Co-ax press), to <0.0005" in a perfect case. Loading Lake City brass, I would see up to 0.002" runout, but a depth mike showed this was due to the difference in neck thickness from one side to the next. The Redding die had apparently forced parallelism of the bullet and case axis despite the neck problem.

Thanks Nick, I aprpeciate your insight. I just got my co-ax press- i think I'm going to run a couple of cases with the partial full length sizing proceedure using the standard Redding full lenth dies and see how I do for concentricity. I'd like to see numbers in the .002 to .003 range- better than that is probably less critical than the accurizing project i'm pondering for the rifle.

john

Happy to help.

As I posted in another thread, I took a look at the NRA Handloading publication (out of print) on the runout issue. They had done some extensive shooting of the old military 173 grain FMJ match bullet in the .30-06 to test the runout problem. They fired 829 rounds in the tests, and found that for each 0.001" of runout, the groups opened up about 1/4 m.o.a. This continued to be true up to 0.004" runout. Above that, it made no additional difference. Apparently that bullet in a military throat would straighten out any error larger than 0.004" as it fired. That limit and those effect numbers will likely change with bullet shape, shorter bearing suraces tending to correct less, but it gives you some idea what size error and accuracy problem you are dealing with?

Another comment they made was that when they measured the concentricity of loaded rounds, they marked the high spot of the runout on the side of the cartridge. They found that orienting the high spot the same way in the chamber each time made their groups smaller, but they didn't say by how much? They further commented that they considered anything over 0.002" runuout unacceptable for long range shooting (over 300 yards). This was written somewhere around 1960, using M72 match ammunition. They were sorting, not loading their own. Thus, there was no opportunity for neck turning, if anyone had thought of that yet at the time? My own measurements of Lake City brass showed 0.002" neck thickness variation I mentioned in my last post. Presumably, these tests would have been fired single-loading a match accurized M1 Garand.

I hope this post is enough along the same line as not to be consider a thread hijack.

I've purchased Redding competition die sets for 22-250 and 223. I've noticed in both resizer dies the neck bushing is loose (on bushing OD) . If making my own bushing to a larger OD to more closely fit the die body, could I expect less case run-out?

Are those neck sizer only dies? I believe the bushing is supposed to 'float' and self-center on the case neck....

Are those neck sizer only dies? I believe the bushing is supposed to 'float' and self-center on the case neck....


Yup, on both accounts. The bushing is .500 OD and the chamber it fits into is .5065

why worry if your not into comp.shooting are your loads good for what your using them for?neck turning can be a hasel.

why worry if your not into comp.shooting are your loads good for what your using them for?neck turning can be a hasel.

Cases for both the .223 and the 22-250 necksize with an average of .002 roundout. In the .223, the rifle handles them well with nothing to complain about accuracy wise. It's another story with the 22-250. I'd like to shrink it's groups and was wondering if building a bushing might address the runout issue.

Monty, first I would find out where the runout is coming from.
Measure some cases fired in your 22-250. If they show much runout fired (before resizing), then the chamber is not concentric to the bore- and that's a tough problem to overcome at the loading bench.
If fired cases are concentric, next, size them in your sizing die, and check them for runout again. If they show runout now, the sizing die or procedure is causing the runout.
If sized cases show no runout, load some cases and measure the loaded cartridges for runout. If the runout shows up there, the bullet seating die/procedure is causing the runout.
After doing that, you will know where to start looking.

Cases for both the .223 and the 22-250 necksize with an average of .002 roundout. . .

When I bought my first Redding Competition Bullet Seater die, it was for .30-06 match ammunition, and I also got 0.002" runnout on the bullets I seated with it. I then applied my depth micrometer to the step from the outside of the neck, down to the bullet, and found 0.002" difference in neck wall thickness from the high spot to the low spot was the culprit. You can see this with a caliper, too, using the step the jaws form at the end.

You can buy a ball-end micrometer or a NECO case gauge tool for measuring neck wall thickness before you've loaded a case. You could also buy an outside neck turning tool and uniform your case neck thicknesses. With the NECO tool's extended inside anvil, you will also discover that cases with neck thickness variation tend to have about twice that thickness variation in the web back near the casehead. This can cause accuracy problems that are not corrected just by neck turning. The uneven case wall causes uneven boltface thrust. If your gun has much sensitivity to web thickness variation, you will simply have to sort cases for best accuracy.

In the interim, if you haven't done so already, I would sort some zero runnout rounds on your runout gauge and see if you can't find a dozen of them and see how they group? If your accuracy problem isn't solved by this, you probably have other issues you need to address.

Thanks for the responses. Gives me more to consider.

To give a brief rundown on where I'm at on the 22-250: This rifle (788 rem) used to group well although never exceptional. I loaned it to my brother-in-law for a hunting trip along with 250 rounds of reloaded ammo. I prewarned him about getting it hot and told him to clean the bore after every 50 rounds. After getting it back I took it out as a back up for my normal varmint rifle. While the Savage was cooling I drug out the 22-250 and wasn't even in the same county with the targets.

Later, thinking that he maybe put his own glass on it and remounted my scope before bring it back, I proceeded to sight it in. Well the rifle which would usually shoot .600-.700 groups was now in the 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 group range with the loads that it usually liked. No biggie I thought, mounts came loose. Reset the base and lapped the rings... still the same. Put a known good scope on, still the same. Checked everything on the rifle I could think of and swollowing my pride, reluctantly took it to a local gunsmith. He bore scoped it, checked firing pin protusion, headspacing, crown and gave it a clean bill of health without test firing it.

I restarted load development on it and everything is so different, it's like a strange rifle.

Used to like 60 grain Hornady's with 29.7-31.0 grains of IMR-4320 in Rem cases with CCI primers.

The best of the loads so far has been 52 grain Sierra match, 37 grain of H-380 in rem cases with a CCI primer (same batch)

The cases have been selected for weight, flashhole deburred, heads turned, primer depths set and neck turned. I haven't checked for case wall concentricity, can I can make the set up to do it. I have marked the case extractor grooves with dykem to index in chambers.

Also played with jump distance, which I never done before on this rifle. Usually just set 'em short enough to fit the clip.

What did the gunsmith say about the throat? Did you soak it out good with copper solvent?

Mike's right that if the gunsmith didn't run a borescope in it just may not be properly cleaned. Could your B.I.L. have put more than the 250 rounds through it that you gave him? Also, did you check for excess oil in the stock? That can mess up a bedding job or change the charactersitics of an inletted stock. Check, also, that nothing has dinged the crown or bent it out of round?

Another question is how many rounds are through this barrel? When I last shot out my M1A's barrel, I first noticed I was getting occasional un-called fliers in matches. I saw maybe one flier out of every ten or twenty shots for 100 rounds or so. Then over the next 200 rounds, flier frequency increased to one in four or five. After another 100 rounds it increased to one out of four or five shots. That's when the light bulb went off and I retired it. Mind you, it was still well within what most hunters would call adequate accuracy. About what you are seeing. 2 1/2" 100 yard groups, including the fliers, where it once shot 0.5" to 0.8".

The .308 shoots out a chrome-moly barrel in about 3,000 rounds. 3,500 in a stainless. The 22-250, being faster, will shoot them out sooner. It may well tear a throat up in 2,000 rounds. I've never owned one, so someone who has shot one out should step in, here if they know otherwise.

To answer the question posed:

Mike I specifically asked about the throat and was reassured that during the borescoping it was good... no erosion or jacket fouling. I use Sweets 7.62 solvent after each shooting session and Shooter's Choice to patch out while warm.

Unclenick, Yes the BIL put more ammo thru it than what i gave him. Gave me several boxes of empties when he returned the rifle. That in itself got me grouchy, since the loads that i ran thru it was under the max. Yes the rifle has been shot a bunch... little over the 1500 round mark while I've owned it. Was lightly used when i acquired it.

I'll concur with the Wipe-Out Bore Foam. It's good and worth a few bucks to see if if you can put some life back into the barrel.

You didn't mention cleaning, other than telling your brother-in-law to clean it every 50 rounds.
If you haven't already, I would clean the barrel very thoroughly.

I'll try WipeOut cleaner. Didn't figure i had a fouling issue since the patches would come out clean after scrubbing with the Sweets.
There was a mention of filling the bore and letting it sit. Do you cap the muzzle and fill to the chamber?

Wipe Out is a foam and it will fill the bore, I can assure you. Set the gun horizontal, and slightly depress the muzzle so the excess can run out.

Shake well, and go easy on the trigger. You'd be surprised how fast it comes out of a new can.

Note, some of the foam dripped down the sides of one of the cans I have, and ate the printing right off......

When I use Wipe-Out I put the butt in the bunny ear bag to raise it. The muzzle goes in an aluminum pie plate with a couple of paper towels in the pie plate. It's pretty rough on the aluminum as it turns grey and looks rough.

Bye
Jack

Another cleaning product you could try, if you have some, is MPro7. I have a 30-06 that fouls copper like crazy, and takes forever to clean. I got tired of it this last time, and instead of my usual cleaning, I plugged the chamber with a rubber plug and filled the bore with MPro7 (the gel kind). I stood the gun muzzle up for a few days, then poured out the green/black crud. After using a few dry patches to clean the bore, there was no copper whatsoever. I ran a couple patches of Bore Tech Eliminator down the bore, (this stuff eats copper like crazy and will show blue on the patch just from the brass jag) and they indicated there was no copper in the bore. I'll be using this stuff for heavy cleaning jobs from now on.

After you get the bore clean, if it still doesn't shoot well, you might try the Tubb Final Finish system (Midway sells it). It's similar to bore lapping, but just uses several grades of fine polish instead of bore lapping abrasive. It's purpose is to finely polish the bore and throat to restore accuracy. It worked really well for me on a .22 Hornet that just wouldn't shoot. It also cut fouling way down, since the bore was smoother.

(Note, I'm not necessarily advocating the Tubb product over Marshall's bore lapping products sold here; but I'm assuming that since your rifle did shoot well originally, it may not need a lapping job, just a polishing job.)

To bring this thread up to date. I did try Wipe-Out bore cleaner on the barrel and didn't find any fouling nor did it improve accuracy. Found another barrel for the 788 for $50 that's guaranteed good. The smith that has it is trying to talk me into chambering it for 22-250 Ackley improved. I'm dragging my feet on it since I already have Redding Competition die set for 22-250 Rem.

Opinions please.

To my mind, 22-250 barrels shoot out fast enough. Unless you are genuinely dissatisfied with .22-250 performance or can genuinely identify use for the extra velocity, I would save the price of another Competition Seater, more reloading dies, and the wear and tear of fireforming.

To my mind, 22-250 barrels shoot out fast enough. Unless you are genuinely dissatisfied with .22-250 performance or can genuinely identify use for the extra velocity, I would save the price of another Competition Seater, more reloading dies, and the wear and tear of fireforming.

I'm not dissatisfied with a 22-250. Was inticed a little from the mention of improved accuracy from the blown out cases and being able to match velocity with a 220 swift if I chose too.

I'm going to buy the barrel and install it myself. Have the capability to check and adjust headspacing if needed