I have recently acquired some older "new" Winchester brass and it has a crimp around the case right where the bottom of the bullet would be when seated. Do i load these the same as i do now crimped brass? Are these cases safe for modern loads and a 1895G?

Should be fine. Welcome to the forum.

Can you post a picture of the brass?

It is like they rolled a gear around it, correct? I see that on revolver brass sometimes. I ignore it.

Cheezywan

Ditto what Mike said. Enough reloads, and it may even smooth out a little.

I've never been sure what the purpose of a case cannelure is? Lake City .308 Match brass has one way down near the casehead. In your .45-70 case, it might mean the brass was originally made for a particular bullet and was a quick visual inspection for its correct seating depth? It might also be a quick check to be sure a dropped cartridge or one removed unused from a magazine has not had its bullet pushed deeper into the case? Could just be decoration, too, but seems like a wasted manufacturing operation from that standpoint. Lake City might just have wanted a quick way to tell match brass from standard, but since the headstamp actually says "MATCH", I don't really see the need? If someone else knows the rationale behind it, I'd be interested to learn what it is?

I wonder if it is done before or after the bullet is seated? Might be to increase bullet pull for more consistant start presure with whatever powder was used?

Cheezywan

Take care when resizing the brass. I've seen case's collapse when not enough lube was applied. The case folded in ward at the point where the groove wes rolled into it. Use a good lube and a good coating. TF

Thanx for all the responses. Just bought a 1895G and its the first straight walled rifle i ever loaded for, all other rifles are bottlenecks.

Don't worry aboutg the cannalure ring - load just as you would a smooth walled case. Handgun shooters run into this all the time with their reloading.

I don't like cases with a cannelure rolled into them. I questioned the R-P rep about this on .38spl cases, responce was it's a positive stop for the bullet base as it usually sticks in quite far before they are fired for the first time and after firing they flatten out a bit.

All the ones I had for the .45-70 are gone because they were nothing but trouble. I load mine with black powder and you can't seat a heavy bullet deeper without buggering it up. The other problem is the cannelure weakens the case, even if you anneal the cases, they'll often crack right at the cannelure.

For smokeless loads using bullets not heavier than 405gr, it shouldn't be much of a problem for you until they start splitting, have to watch them closely. You won't be able to deep seat heavier bullets to clear the action on a repeater with the cannelure cases.

My post#6 question remains unanswered. When is that "crimp groove" "rolled in?" Why? Location suggests near the base of the bullet from the factory. Might be to keep the bullet from being pushed into the case? Might be to crimp the case to the bullet base?

Is a good question WV DEERHUNTER.

Cheezywan

I think Markw answered it. He said the R-P rep told him it was used as bullet stop. To do that, it would have to be in place already when the bullet was seated. I imagine plant safety would discourage such handling of a loaded round, anyway.

Mark, Nick

That seems to make sense. The next empty one that crosses my bench is going to get scrutinized on the inside. All I could find on hand were some loaded 38 specials. The headstamp is RP.

Cheezywan

Cheezywan,

It may be easier to sneak a peak at some loaded commercial rounds. That darn crease flattens out on firing. It is when you look at the new round that it is clearly indented around the bullet base. Personally, I can't see how much help it would be? A press has plenty of force to either push a bullet past the cannelure or to crush the case. I suppose you could argue it helps prevent a dropped bullet from shoving deeper into the case, but is seems to me it would be unlikely to approach the grip a crimp provides.

Maybe I'm wrong about that last point? When you buy bulk brass, it doesn't look trimmed and doesn't have exactly uniform length. I see any number of cases that are uneven in length from one side of the mouth to the other. My trimmer usually marks one side first when trimming for the first time. Loading uneven case mouths, crimps could not be relied on for consistent strength. With lubricated lead bullets in particular, I suppose it is then possible for it to be moved by dropping or by recoil in a magazine?

Another question comes to mind. How is this "bullet stop" made in the manufacturing prossess? I imagine a mandrel to support the empty case? Alot of work in that extra step for mass production. It makes a little more sense for 45-70 rounds that may be used in a tube fed rifle, but revolver cartridges like .38 special? I would think "cost prohibitive".

I have ignored this feature right up to reading this thread. It is now another question to ponder. No sleep will be lost though.

Cheezywan

Like Nick said, factory brass is not trimmed to the same length, it varies, sometimes alot! One thing you will note however is that the cannelure is rolled into the case in reference to the head, not the mouth.

It's my understanding this started way back back in the days of of BPCR when ammo was loaded by hand. As time went on, the process started being automated and much of the loading process was mechanized yet many of the machines were built to mimic the human element. This being the situation, the cannelure was retained even though the bullets were being seated by machine, they were pushed into the "stop" by a flexible arm rather than by an exact setting of a stiff arm. This maintained the OAL inspite of variations in the case length. Since the original ammo was all loaded with lead bullets, the cases were sized after seating the bullet, thus eliminating buggering up the bullets trying to get them into the cases.

The original cannelures were nothing more than a smooth groove rolled into the case via a rotating wheel and mandrell, many years later they took on the knurled look.

I happen to have an original UMC .45-70 round sitting infront of me right now. The cannelure is a single smooth roll in the shape of a saw tooth with the flat side facing the bullet base. The bullet is maintained in the case by the tension applied by sizing the mouth after the bullet was seated however the sized area is only 50% as long as the area of the bullet body contained in the case. There is no crimp at all and if I go pull out some of the old paper patch factory ammo, it will be the same way however, the location of the cannelure on the .45-70-405 will be further up the case from the head than the cannelure on the .45-70-500 loadings to compensate for the deeper 500gr bullet seating depth.

Now you're probably asking why the bullet stop was needed on BP loads when there is to be no air space left in the case....simple, the BP was compressed to just below the bullet stop and remained that way until the bullet was seated so the bullet base never contacted the powder on seating. The additional handling of the loaded round through the sizing operating and shipment, allowed the powder to be bounced around and loosed up enough to fill the few thousandths gap under the bullet making the round safe for use.

I'm also given to understand that the Brits originally chose the jacketed bullet for the .303 so as it would have enough strength to be used as the compression ram saving steps in the mfg process. Cases were sized before being loaded and when the bullet was seated, it compressed the BP then was crimped in place. This eliminated three steps in the loading process thus cutting a lot of time and additional machinery out as well. Thus the advent of the rounded corner on the flat based jacketed bullets that remains till today, this allows the bullet to enter the pre-sized case easily without damaging the bullet or the case.

Thanx for all of the valuable information it is greaty appreciated.

That is an interesting bit of history to have, and gives some insight into how cartridge manufacturing evolved.

Thanks, Mark!

I wonder how often, like fireworks plants, the black powder cartridge making gear blew up? I used to live about 5 miles north of where there had been a Civil War era gunpowder plant in a town called Goes, Ohio. There were still some of the old brick buildings and foundations there 20 years ago; small and separated, like fireworks plant structures. The town got its name from the fact one of these would explode from time to time.

I don't know that they made any loaded cartridges there? It would likely have been well after the war if they did? I understand powder factories were often located where there was both flowing water to power the milling operations and a large growth of lower density wood, like willow, for the high surface-area charcoal good quality powder needs.

I don't know of any ammunition plants that blew up, not saying it didn't happen, just never heard of one. Powder plants yes, several of them blew.

I've beenreloading 45/70 brass since around 1950,and reloaded many of those with a crimp at the bottom of the bullet to prevent it from sinking into the case.
I never treated them any differently then the plain cases,and never had any problems with them.I did keep them in seperate batches from the plain case batches.
As i recall,all f hem were in the older semi balloon head typeof case.These were called solid head,but had a dome in the base of the case instead of a flat solid bottom,as allmodern cases have.The 45/70 cartridge was made in the old fashioned way for a long time;much longer then any other cartridge,to my knowledge.
Frank

Yes, the older brass does hold up much better because it was softer and more malleable than the newer brass. I had newer brass with the cannelure crack after one or two loadings, annealed the rest and most cracked anyway within a few more loadings.

Usually the internal ridge is gone after the second firing but I still don't like them. I'll use 'em if I got 'em but if I'm buying new, I avoid them.

Well i bought the brass mainly because of the vintage boxes they were in. Can anyone tell me the time period for the old yellow winchester western box and the plain red Remington box. Have seen just the boxes sell for $10 with no brass.

Cheezy, ref. #11, the Rem. rep. has it right but it is obselete.

In the early days of cartridge making the factories had a harder time keeping case wall thickness sufficently consistant to insure the bullets would stay in place with rough handling. The roll crimp on old round nosed bullets often being insufficent to grip securely, the shallow cannalure was rolled in the case during manufacture to prevent bullets pushing below the proper depth,

It's not needed now so few, if any, new stuff is made that way. But, with factory processes, it was/is easy for them to do as the case was being made. Some like the look so it lasted far longer than it was really needed.

Very impressive gentlemen! I guess I've allways thought that it was just decoration to make one manufacturers cases look different from anothers. Then it was ignored.

Good history lesson on an obscure subject. Thank you :) .

Cheezywan

Well i bought the brass mainly because of the vintage boxes they were in. Can anyone tell me the time period for the old yellow winchester western box and the plain red Remington box. Have seen just the boxes sell for $10 with no brass.

I have several of each: yellow Winchester/Western and red Remington .45-70 boxes. They were purchased in the 1970's and still contain the brass, some of it loaded with my favorite loads. The price tag on one Winchester/Western box is $2.45 for 20 cases. It amazes me what people will spend money for, I tossed away a lot of those boxes, probably will toss these too, being that it's just too much work to sell them.

P.S. They are correct, the cannelure is to prevent the bullet from being forced deeper into the case, especially in the tubular magazine. This was important once smokeless powder came about as powder volume no longer filled the case to prevent the bullet from being shoved backward from spring pressure.

. . . As i recall,all f hem were in the older semi balloon head typeof case.These were called solid head,but had a dome in the base of the case instead of a flat solid bottom,as allmodern cases have. . .

Frank,

Not quite all. Take a peak into a modern Winchester .308 case, and you'll say, "their baaaaaaak". Winchester moved to the semi-baloon head in .308 for the special lot of brass they ran for the 1992 Palma match, and later made it their standard .308 case. It may be surprising to see it happen in a higher pressure case than .45-70, but the modern harder brass apparently doesn't have a problem with it. I has about 6% more capacity than Lake City cases, which I recall being a close match to Remington.