I have been told that besides flatness of trajectory and lightness of recoil that 44 Magnum is superior to 30WCF in a rifle. The 44 Magnum's larger caliber and mass and theoretically better terminal ballistics compensates for the superior exterior ballistics of the 30WCF.

I have no doubt that both are lethal at 150 yards. But which do you think is better and why?

I Used to be a 44 Mag and 45LC +P rifle junky. Though lately I've been rethinking the practicality of large bore smokeless powder rifles. Besides being able to use the same ammo for the 44 Mag revolver and the rifle, it seems kind of pointless when you have 30-30. Isn't the point of a rifle to shoot as far as you can?

Understandably, the rifles of nearly a century and a half ago were large bore rifles. However, I believe that this was a function of the limitation of black powder. The only way to get longer range and flatter trajectory was to load up more and more gunpowder which limited how small you could make a rifle cartridge. So we get cartridges like the 44WCF and 45-70 Govt. A rifle cartridge with a 30 bullet and 70gr of BP would have probably been pathetically weak compared to its 405grain 45 caliber parent.

The introduction of smokeless powder changed everything. Rifle cartridges seriously evolved with Spitzer point bullets and bottle neck cases. Pistol cartriges got shorter and more effecient. A 45CP was just as powerful as it's longer ancestor the 45S&W or 45 Colt "miliary" load.

Sure its big fun in the sun. I like my S&W 629, it's a good conversation starter:). But why chamber that cartridge in a rifle when you got a flatter shooting, lighter recoiling, equally powerful cartridge to go with? This is my subjective opinion, but the 44 Magnum kicks harder from a light lever action than a much more powerful 30-06 from my slightly heavier M1903 Springfield.

What ya' need is a .45 Colt rifle. ;)

I have one ;)

I know 45LC can be loaded a little hotter than 44 MAG, but for all intents and purposes, lets just group them together when comparing it to the 30-30.

Welcome to the debate. Proponents of both sides have been arguing this since the mid-1950s. Inside of 100 yards, there probably isn't enough difference to get excited about. It comes down to personal preference as much as anything. Which one brings a smile to your face?

Army GI,

"But which do you think is better and why?"

As far as in a levergun goes I would have to say the 30-30 is better for what I would use it for - whitetail deer hunting. That would be based on my perception of the advantages of factory loads - the new Hornady Leveraction ammunition in paticular. However I personally went for the 44 Mag. because I have two 1894 Marlins and a Ruger SBH - all in .44.

"Isn't the point of a rifle to shoot as far as you can?"

I do not think so. It is my opinion that the rifle is designed to deliver the bullet to the target - aesthetics are subjective. The type of hunting I do with my .44's is not based on how far you can/cannot shoot - animal patterning, stand location, and still hunting.

Best regards

I don't see how there can be any useful debate, inside of 150 yards. Elephants, maybe, but not whitetails :rolleyes:

150 and beyond - you start holding over for the pistol cartridges. So that's where the rifle cartridge (.30-30 or .35 or whatever) gains you something, in the 150 - 200 yard bracket, depending on the exact load.

I wouldn't volunteer to stand downrange and catch bullets from either one :p

The punch that the 30-30 has would be easy to put into perspective just compare velocities and energy at the old standbye of 100yds. The 30-30 has more there than the .44 at the muzzle. Compare muzzle vels of the two fav 30-30 cal wgts
150gn at 2400fps 170gn at 2200 these are avg factory load figures. 180gn 44 mag, at the muzzle is what? Don't get me wrong there is an overlap in the two cals usefulness. Me I'd rather compare it to the .357mag. But this is about 30-30 vs .44mag. Inherent accuracy of the 30-30 would give it an edge, now go to the new Hornady ammo that steps the bar a little higher and the .44 won't make it there. For a cartridge that is over 100yrs old in design the industry sure knows what we love in our leverguns more 30-30 sold than any other. Given common ranges for both to use, I would say the novice would do well with the 30-30 and have a crap shoot with the .44 as far as estimating hold over. In your hands the .44 would make more sense to have than the 30-30 given you already have a handgun it the cal. Bottom line for an expierienced shooter that practices, flip a coin and go buy one. For the once a year deer hunter, 30-30.

Both are great cartridges! From 0 -150 yrds I like the Bigbore (Mine are 45LC-454 Casull) over the 30-30- big hole lots of blood to use in find game-more energy to make sure they don't go anywhere. Past that the 30 cal gets the nod flatter bullet path-easeir to make a good hit. I don't own a 30-30 as I've got the best 30 cal there is '06, so there is no need for a 30-30!

Also if I hunt something that could or would hunt me I know I can put a big hurting on it with the 454 Casull!! :D

I don't see how there can be any useful debate, inside of 150 yards. Elephants, maybe, but not whitetails :rolleyes:

Well, that is exactly what I'm trying to ascertain; does the 44M do ANYTHING better than the 30WCF within 100 yards besides be "handy" just because you have a 44M pistol as well? Are there specific "tough" animals that the 44M would take down better than a 30WCF? I know it ain't pigs because you yourself have mentioned many times that you've killed hogs with .357 and other medium bore calibers.

The 30WCF has higher kinetic energy at all ranges, and lower recoil. That coupled with proper hunting ammunition, one would think that the 30WCF would produce bigger wounds than a 44M.

The only thing I can think of is that the 44M is more useful in a "trapper" style levergun because it's really not losing much velocity at 16" from 20" while the 30WCF has probably taken a big hit in velocity.

The punch that the 30-30 has would be easy to put into perspective just compare velocities and energy at the old standbye of 100yds. The 30-30 has more there than the .44 at the muzzle.
I just think that a 20 or 24" levergun is too big for 44 Magnum. Why carry a rifle that large when you have one in a more potent caliber that recoils a lot less? If you're shooting black powder, that's one thing because you need all the velocity you can get burning that slow crap.

Having said that, for all the recoil that you get from a 44M/45LC+P levergun, you don't gain all that much performance. My M1 feels more mild than my Winchester 94 in 45LC+P.

Both are great cartridges! From 0 -150 yrds I like the Bigbore (Mine are 45LC-454 Casull) over the 30-30- big hole lots of blood to use in find game-more energy to make sure they don't go anywhere. Past that the 30 cal gets the nod flatter bullet path-easeir to make a good hit. I don't own a 30-30 as I've got the best 30 cal there is '06, so there is no need for a 30-30!
I agree, 30-06 is where it's at. And the 44M and 45LC are fun cartridges. What manly man doesn't like hurling 300gr+ slugs at targets?

It's just that I've been under the impression that a 44M with a good SP or HP bullet actually made a bigger hole than a 30WCF with the same; but it seems that isn't true.

And then going to online "authorities" like Chuck Hawks is no better because he just contradicts himself. You can almost hear him laughing out loud through his typed words at the notion that 44 Magnum is better than 30WCF at ANYTHING. "LOL, AS IF!" right? Then you scroll down the page a little bit and you see a "rifle killing power" formula he concocted that shows the 44M havin more "killing power" (not by much) than 30-30 winchester at ranges less than 100 yards and the 45-70 having more killing power than 30-06 at the same range.

So what's it going to be?

If you put it in terms of the bigger-than-deer critters - I'd go with the .44 mag, and 300gr. cast bullets, over .30-30 factory loads.

That's sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison, although you can get the Federal CastCore factory load with either 280gr. or 300gr. cast bullets in the .44 mag, I forget which.

If you put it in terms of the bigger-than-deer critters - I'd go with the .44 mag, and 300gr. cast bullets, over .30-30 factory loads.

That's sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison, although you can get the Federal CastCore factory load with either 280gr. or 300gr. cast bullets in the .44 mag, I forget which.

You mean like elk and the like?

And when you mentioned apples/oranges, how so? Should the 44 Mag be considered a different class of weapon?

I prefer the 30-30. It's a RIFLE round. the 44 is a handgun round. Why carry a rifle with a pistol round? When i carry a handgun I carry a handgun. When i carry a rifle i carry a rifle. The 30-30 and 44 don't fall in the same catagory. Fuel for the fire.

I prefer the 30-30. It's a RIFLE round. the 44 is a handgun round. Why carry a rifle with a pistol round? When i carry a handgun I carry a handgun. When i carry a rifle i carry a rifle. The 30-30 and 44 don't fall in the same catagory. Fuel for the fire.

Well, that's the argument. The premise is that the 44MAG is like a rifle cartridge when fired from a long barrel. According to the recoil table on CH website, it only recoils one or two pounds more than 30WCF.

In the same vein, the 44-40, which was fundamentally a pistol cartridge, was the most popular deer cartridge for the 1873 Winchester RIFLE until WWII.

So we know all these variables and the like, but we don't know what the objective analysis is on actual performance. What makes the bigger hole?

It seems to me nobody really knows anymore.

Also, I wouldn't really consider the 44 Magnum as being in the same class as the 9mm, 45ACP, or 357 Magnum. These 3 cartridges are considered practical "service" cartridges. The 44 Mag has one use and one use only, hunting.

I'm a cast boolit hunter, with both leveraction rifles, and my preference would lean toward the 44 Mag.

The large diameter and hence meplat of the 44 Mag is a bit more suitable for cast boolit hunting. I personally don't sweat the alloy composition as it doesn't matter if it is hard or soft, a big hole is going to be knocked through the critter. The 44 Mag is quite a killer, from my experience, with cast boolits from 265 to 300-grains. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an elk with it inside 100-yards.

With the 30-30 Win, I'm concerned about shooting a boolit that is too hard and then must just depend on the meplat for killing authority. A softer alloy will flatten and provide a big hole but then you are fighting the alloy's strength in relation to the pressure as which the boolit can be sent down barrel.

That said, after a complete lifetime of hunting by both my father and self, we have dropped hundreds of whitetails and hogs on the spot with the 30-30 Win and jacketed bullets. Specifically, the Hornady 170-grain FP. Around 1979, I loaded 1000 rounds of ammunition with this bullet and we are now down to less than 20. Very, very, very few have been shot at a target, less than 3 to 5 a year. All the rest have killed whitetails, feral hogs, a few javelinas and one antelope. Being I stated it above, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an elk with it inside 100-yards.

You mean like elk and the like?

And when you mentioned apples/oranges, how so? Should the 44 Mag be considered a different class of weapon?

I meant that the typical .30-30 round is a jacketed bullet, and I am advocating a cast bullet in the .44 mag.

Think bullet. Not cartridge!

If you want a pistol, you could get a BFR in 30-30, but I am not sure how much energy and velocity you would loose shooting a rifle bullet out of a pistol length barrel.

I come at things from a little different perspective.

#1 - I don't shoot at anything except OPFOR at ranges of more than 100yds. Just don't have the eyesight for it.

#2 - I prefer versatility, SO

My 1892 is in .357.


With a 158gr bullet and the right powder, it hits .30-30 energies (see what Buffalo Bore does with it)

With a proper mousephart load, I can shoot small game almost silently out to 25yds and whack'em deader than a post with almost no meat damage.

With a 180gr Cast/GC running to 1800fps you can do a fair job on almost anything weighing less than 600lbs - bigger if it don't bite back.

With the .44 you lose a little on the small-game end but gain it on the whompum end.

Both calibers are cheaper to shoot than .30-30 too.

Pistol Calibers for me!

I have also developed a fondness for the pistol calibers. They simplify my gear/camp/glovebox when chucking ammo in the sack for a trip. My little loading bench is less cluttered also 8*)

The shorter range is not an issue since I hunt pretty "close".

Oddly, I have never owned a .44Mag

My 45Colt handgun and 454 Rossi 92 do just fine on the big stuff but I find that all but a few weeks out of the year that a little Marlin .357 makes a great utility rifle and compliments the Ruger SP that is just part of my pants.

The reality is that a box of Buffalo Bore (or comparable handload) "could" kill enough big game (caribou, black bear, moose with good placement) to feed me for more than a few years. The little Marlin works GREAT on the small game/varmints that are mostly what I shoot at these days. It would be no slouch in the personal defense department either.

It will do most of what needs doing in a very fruegal manner while being a joy to carry and shoot .

IF I need to shoot further and flatter, I can always prop the nose of the Mauser on a couple of sticks and reach waaaayyy out there.

My best,

Scotty

I think what you said about being two different types of cartridge is true. Lets say you want to bust a Big Black Bear (500 Lb+) through the shoulder and stop him NOW! Would you want the 30-30 or the 44 Mag with a Hard 300gr cast bullet? I think that answer your question about the differances of the two rounds! Or your trumping through Griz /Browny country and you have to Bust one to Stop it from making you his lunch, which would you rather have?

At 150 yards would a .44 Mag. kill a deer? Maybe.
At 150 yards would a .30-30 kill a deer? Certainly.
Which would I use? .30-30, no question. It's more accurate, has more energy, better penetration, cheaper to practice with.
--The .44 Magnum is a good pistol round, but in a rifle it is a flop.

.44 mag bullet from a rifle at 150 yards, has more speed than a .44 mag bullet from a handgun at 50 yards.

Look it up in the ballistic tables.

You may argue that a .44 mag handgun round is ineffective on a deer at 50 yards (and you are entitled to that opinion), but the last deer I shot with one at that range is still dead. :D

Ranch Dog has a bunch of posts of stuff he's killed with the .44 Mag in a Marlin, FYI.

The only flop my Marlin .44 mag has heard is the hogs and deer it's sent to the ground. (bang!-flop).

I loaded up some sierra 240gr jhc's with 23.5 grains of H110 and I cant feel any difference in the recoil between that and my old 94 in 30-30. That might be cuz the Henry is so darned heavy though. I actually think it has less recoil than my 30-30. But in answer to your question I love em both but I wouldn't take a shot with the 44 if it was over 100 yds. The bullet just drops too much past that. I would probably go as far as 150 yds with the 30-30 and still feel confident that I could make the shot.

Dew.... neither the .30-30 nor the .44 mag will have hardly any drop to 100 yards.

Sight them both in for 2 inches high at 100. The .30-30 is dead on again about 150-ish or so and a few inches low to 175.

The .44 is dead on again at about 125 and a few inches low at 150.

That's a pretty flat trajectory and certainly if you can stay in the middle of a 6" target to that range (or even an 8" target) you can kill a deer.

The .30-30 gains you maybe 30 or 40 yards, at most, before you have to start holding over. That's it. That's the net difference.

The places that I hunt in I never see a shot of more than 50 yds anymore. So I sight my guns in dead on at 50 yds. I know it's really splitting hairs when it comes to the difference the 44 probably has more knock down power and the 30-30 a little bit more range. If you use a 150 gr bullet maybe a lil bit more still. Anyway like I said I like them both and I think everyone should have one of each.

Hey Army- you're thinking way too much. They BOTH work great for their INTENDED use. Get whichever one you like the best and don't worry about it. Don't get bogged down with numbers on paper. I've got both.

Excerpt from one of Paco Kelly's articles;
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

I once whacked one of our famous and tough old jack rabbits (the Arizona type made from bailing wire, hard tack, and ½ inch leather strips) with one of Kelly’s 275 grain 45 slugs at around 2000 fps muzzle velocity. I know I hit him at right under 100 paces...even with recoil I saw bits and hunks go everywhere....but when I got there, I found nothing that resembled a rabbit of any kind..though there was a lot of very small pieces of fur and such over a six to seven foot circle. By the way that’s somewhat close to 2700 lbs of muzzle energy.
A better comparison indicator for me, of where a handloaded round is in the scale of killing ability...is to compare it’s standing against other rounds without the over rated muzzle energy figures. If you multiply the velocity times the bullet weight, and then divide by 7000 (number of grains in a lb, it’s the old Keith method) you get a better picture of actual power/killing levels compared to other rounds. 2000 X 275 div 7000 = KS(Killing Scale) of 79 for this 45 long Colt load from the Rossi 1892. A 44 magnum Ruger revolver with a 275 grain (same nose shape) cast WFN bullet at 1400 FPS velocity reaches a level of KS 55, and that’s a heavy handgun load that’s harvests larger medium game very well.
A 30-30 with a 170 gr bullet at 2200 FPS gives a level of power ranking at KS 53.4... ahh yes dear reader, the 44 mag from a long gun really does have more power at 100 yards than a 30-30/170 commercial load. Of course the 44 mag/275 gr. load above from a rifle, at basically the same velocity as the 275 gr./45 long Colt from a rifle has the same killing level potential as the 45 long Colt. There are difficulties with all measuring methods of bullet energy and killing ability since so much more is involved than just velocity and weight...but this works for me when we are comparing the same bullet shape/content and construct with changes in weight or velocity.
The neat thing about this method is you can take the down range velocities all the way out to your longest range and compare them with the down range velocities of other rounds, calibers and see the changes compared to each other. The 45 long Colt at 100 yards has slowed to 1600 FPS and the killing level has dropped to almost KS of 63 from 79. Where the 30-30 load has dropped to 1930FPS to a KS 46 from 53.4.....that should make a few yell ‘foul...can’t be’, but it is! And from my use of these 45 loads in the field for years on large game....I can tell you it is.....! As many gunwriters have stated over the years, a 44 mag or heavy loaded 45 long Colt fired from a rifle is more powerful than a 30-30 at 100 yards....actually they are more powerful than the great 30-30, at a lot further than 100 yards.....
So the next time someone states the 44 mag and 45 long Colt from rifles only has an advantage over the 30-30 under 100 yards...show him the error of his reality. But remember bullet drop with the larger calibers, is more than the 308 calibers
By Paco Kelly, LeverGuns.com

Excerpt from one of Paco Kelly's articles;
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

I once whacked one of our famous and tough old jack rabbits (the Arizona type made from bailing wire, hard tack, and ½ inch leather strips) with one of Kelly’s 275 grain 45 slugs at around 2000 fps muzzle velocity. I know I hit him at right under 100 paces...even with recoil I saw bits and hunks go everywhere....but when I got there, I found nothing that resembled a rabbit of any kind..though there was a lot of very small pieces of fur and such over a six to seven foot circle. By the way that’s somewhat close to 2700 lbs of muzzle energy.
A better comparison indicator for me, of where a handloaded round is in the scale of killing ability...is to compare it’s standing against other rounds without the over rated muzzle energy figures. If you multiply the velocity times the bullet weight, and then divide by 7000 (number of grains in a lb, it’s the old Keith method) you get a better picture of actual power/killing levels compared to other rounds. 2000 X 275 div 7000 = KS(Killing Scale) of 79 for this 45 long Colt load from the Rossi 1892. A 44 magnum Ruger revolver with a 275 grain (same nose shape) cast WFN bullet at 1400 FPS velocity reaches a level of KS 55, and that’s a heavy handgun load that’s harvests larger medium game very well.
A 30-30 with a 170 gr bullet at 2200 FPS gives a level of power ranking at KS 53.4... ahh yes dear reader, the 44 mag from a long gun really does have more power at 100 yards than a 30-30/170 commercial load. Of course the 44 mag/275 gr. load above from a rifle, at basically the same velocity as the 275 gr./45 long Colt from a rifle has the same killing level potential as the 45 long Colt. There are difficulties with all measuring methods of bullet energy and killing ability since so much more is involved than just velocity and weight...but this works for me when we are comparing the same bullet shape/content and construct with changes in weight or velocity.
The neat thing about this method is you can take the down range velocities all the way out to your longest range and compare them with the down range velocities of other rounds, calibers and see the changes compared to each other. The 45 long Colt at 100 yards has slowed to 1600 FPS and the killing level has dropped to almost KS of 63 from 79. Where the 30-30 load has dropped to 1930FPS to a KS 46 from 53.4.....that should make a few yell ‘foul...can’t be’, but it is! And from my use of these 45 loads in the field for years on large game....I can tell you it is.....! As many gunwriters have stated over the years, a 44 mag or heavy loaded 45 long Colt fired from a rifle is more powerful than a 30-30 at 100 yards....actually they are more powerful than the great 30-30, at a lot further than 100 yards.....
So the next time someone states the 44 mag and 45 long Colt from rifles only has an advantage over the 30-30 under 100 yards...show him the error of his reality. But remember bullet drop with the larger calibers, is more than the 308 calibers
By Paco Kelly, LeverGuns.com
275gr @2000ft/sec=2444.4 ft/lbs E
275@ 1400 ft/sec =1197 ft/lbs E
You say that 275 grainer lost 400 feet per second in first 100 yards and the old 170 grain only lost 270? Wonder what changes there'd be at 150?

Excerpt from one of Paco Kelly's articles;
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/p...oltlevergun.htm (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm)

You say that 275 grainer lost 400 feet per second in first 100 yards and the old 170 grain only lost 270? Wonder what changes there'd be at 150?

Please read my post again; "By Paco Kelly, LeverGuns.com"

Excerpt from one of Paco Kelly's articles;
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/p...oltlevergun.htm (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm)

You say that 275 grainer lost 400 feet per second in first 100 yards and the old 170 grain only lost 270? Wonder what changes there'd be at 150?

Please read my post again; "By Paco Kelly, LeverGuns.com"
Paco say "... around 2000 fps muzzle velocity"
Paco say "...at 100 yards has slowed to 1600 fps".
Still sounds like -400 fps to me. How would you interpert what you posted?

Paco say "... around 2000 fps muzzle velocity"
Paco say "...at 100 yards has slowed to 1600 fps".
Still sounds like -400 fps to me. How would you interpert what you posted?

I would interpret that Paco Kelly wrote the article and not the person who posted his excerpt, as you have implied.

However, based on the given information it would appear that while the 275 grain bullet from either the .45 Colt or .44 mag loaded to a muzzle velocity of around 2000 fps has a KS of 79 [25.6 more than the 30-30] willhave a KS of almost 63 at 100 yards, having lost 400 fps.

Compared to the 30-30 170 grain, loaded 2200 fps and a KS of 53.4 at the muzzle, at 100 yards it's only down 270 fps, but the KS number is now 46, [17 ] less than the 275 .44/.45 at the same downrange distance.

(killing scale- If you multiply the velocity times the bullet weight, and then divide by 7000 (number of grains in a lb, it’s the old Keith method) you get a better picture of actual power/killing levels compared to other rounds. 2000 X 275 div 7000 = KS(Killing Scale) of 79 for this 45 long Colt load from the Rossi 1892. A 44 magnum Ruger revolver with a 275 grain (same nose shape) cast WFN bullet at 1400 FPS velocity reaches a level of KS 55, and that’s a heavy handgun load that’s harvests larger medium game very well.)

So, since we know that the 150 grain 30-30 bullet, while starting out slightly faster than the 170, carries with it less energy down range and is not the choice for longer shots. Also considering that even if the ,44 bullet does not mushroom, it still has more than enough energy at 150 yards (provided you can see well enough with irons sights; I can't anymore) to punch a hole through most hogs, medium sized deer and black bear. You really have to have confidence in the 30-30 bullet to increase it's diameter over a very broad range of velocities or it's a 30 cal sized hole in one side and hopefully out the other.
I can recommend a wide array of .44/.45 bullets that will mushroom at both fast and slow speeds, but can think of only one 30-30 bullet I'd trust for all situations, and that's the PMC Starfire all copper bullet. Haven't used the Hornady lever ev bullet so I can't say that offers the same performance, and I've given up hunting with the 30-30 due to poor bullet performance and the difficulty in locating the PMC Starfire as opposed to .44 mag and/or .45 LC hunting loads, or even the good ol' 200 grain Core-loct in .35 Remington. My Marlin 1894 models go to the CAS matches with me and into the brush during hunting season. Still or stand hunts see my scoped .35 Rem with me. Can't put a scope on the 1894 model but the 336 looks just fine for me.

Now as for trajectory and all that you'll have to ask someone else; i just know what works for me.

We are getting a little carried away comparing apples to oranges here.

Keep in mind that while the .30-30 jacketed bullet requires expansion on impact to be effective, the typical .44 mag bullet does not.

We are definetly comparing apples to oranges when we start comparing Paco Kellys Hot Loads to Factory Loads .

I own and hunt with both the 30-30, and a 45Colt. I grab whatever floats my boat on that particular day. The 30-30 is spittin' out 170 gr Hornady's, and the 45 is lobbing 300gr XTP's or 300 gr cast. Never had any complaints from the receiving end so far about either. :D

Good shootin'
johnny

I've been using both 30-30 and 44 mag for over 30 years and on deer not a whole lot of differance in performance, BUT when you hunt wild pigs especially those over 250 pounds the fatter, slower, heavier bullet from the 44 drops them "Hammer of Thor" dead, I have seen pigs run off with perfect shot placement hit with a 30/30 though never lost just more work in tracking and recovery. I hunt more pigs than deer and the 44 mag gets the vote if I was limited to one gun but thanks goodness i'm not.