I have started weighing my cases whils reloading smaller batches, to improve consistency of the cartridges. Last batch im shooting into tree stumps as it is a very poor excuse for reloaded ammo.

What is the margin i should be separating the cases? Im working on 0.3gr increments at the moment and all the cases have been fired, neck sized, chamfered and decapped and the primer well scraped out. Will any powder residue in the cases be a detrimental factor to weighing the cases?

Cheers

Residue does have weight. Just how much depends on type of powder and efficiency of burn, of course.

You could tumble the cases after doing all the steps you've listed and remove the majority of inside-case residue. After thorough cleaning of tumbling media and dust, you could weigh the cases again to determine the difference.

When all has been done, I'd say a range of +- one grain in case weight would be a pretty narrow margin.

I can't imagine that sorting cases by weight will make the difference between blasting ammo and target ammo. In the 20+ years I've been handloading I've never sorted cases by weight, and so far haven't produced anything I wouldn't consider target worthy, which didn't have a definite cause.

Maybe something else is wrong with your process or equipment?

Good luck.

Brass is roughly 8.5 times the density of water. Changing case capacity by about 0.2 grains of water typically has the effect of changing the powder charge by half that amount or 0.1 grains in a rifle case. So, weighing cases +/- 1.7 grains will introduce about the same consistency as weighing powder +/- 0.1 grains. I think weighing usually has more value for identifying cases that are simply different from the rest.

I used to shoot benchrest years ago when I had lots of time to play. I sorted brass and bullets into lots of the same weight, lotted them together, and assembled my match ammo from these lots in groups of 5 rounds plus having the same flash hole diameter (I still have the micrometer - not much good today when flash holes seem to be a triangular punch out). All powder charges were metered into a balance pan and brought to weight with a powder trickler. I know other benchresters back then were doing similar things. Some even weighed primers & spun cases for concentricity. I haven't stayed with it but I bet people today have invented some even more stringent methods.

This thread got me curious so I weighed some brand new Win .308 brass (50 cases) that I just received from Midway. All I have done is remove it from the bag. I zeroed the scale with first cartridge which weighed 159.3 gr. on my Frankford Arsenal scale and the range was from +1.0 gr. to -1.5 gr. I weighed some Sierra Varminter 110 gr. HP bullets #2110 and most were 109.8-110.0 gr. My Sierra 110 gr. spire sp bullets (#1855) seem to be 110.0 - 110.5 gr. I also have a box of Midway repackaged 125 gr. PSP (#22915) that weighted 124.6 -125.7 gr. Is that about standard for a range in case and bullet weight?

Kansas,

You're in a reasonable range. Match bullets and varmint bullets will usually weigh a bit tighter than hunting bullets just because it is harder to make thicker jackets as uniform as thinner ones.

You lucked out on the brass. Last time I bought bulk .308 Win brass in the Winchester brand, the weights ranged from about 154.5 to 159.5. I bought 500, so I was working from a bigger sample. What happens is the brass slugs don't all squirt up into the forming dies to just exactly the same height, so they have excess they cut off to bring them to final length. Their cutting precision is +/- about 0.006" in my experience with that brand. So, you have to trim them all to the same length, and do any other brass-removing uniforming steps before weighing to see how close they are likely to be on the inside. The wider weight range I got reflected the brass coming off at least two different sets of tools, as well.

Thanks Nick, I thought the weights sounded like they were pretty close. Besides, it gave me a reason to play with a new toy:D

Brad,

You don’t say what rifle you are using. I might step on a few toes here but here are a few observations on Hornets: most standard Hornet rifles are 1.5” rifles @ 100 yards with factory ammunition and good handloads.
Many of the new rifles I have examined have rough barrels. The barrels requiring a “break-in” or smoothing before giving their best accuracy.
Rather than weighing cases I found my best road to small groups was in brass preparation. I keep cases separated by brand. I trim the cases to the same length. I bottom the primer pockets and de-burr the flash holes – these last two steps are what I have found to be the most significant contributors to small groups and consistent shooting.
With these brass preparation steps you can reduce your group size to near an inch using bulk Remington and Winchester bullets. Switching to a premium bullet such as the Nosler ballistic tip will bring your five shot groups under an inch.
In my experience the standard Hornet is a difficult cartridge to load accurate ammunition for. The K-Hornet and the Bee both proving to be more tolerant of small variables.
I’ll be watching your thread to see how your experiments progress.

. . . Im working on 0.3gr increments at the moment and all the cases have been fired, neck sized, chamfered and decapped and the primer well scraped out. Cheers
You didn't mention it but we assume you also trimmed the cases. Most everything else you said sounds like you're doing things right. As a general rule, keeping everything consistent results in smaller groups once the most accurate powder and charge has been established.

I'll ditto what William said on case prep. The primer pocket depth uniforming and flashhole deburring, like trimming, should be done before sorting by weight, as Marshal says. You want to start the weighing process with the brass as dimensionally uniform as possible so the weight tends to reflect remaining capacity. My experience with flashhole deburring is that I have difficulty detecting a difference with stick powders, but with ball powder I have had it cut group size up to 40%. Ball powders are harder to light, and in a small case like the Hornet, they are easier to meter consistently and get high energy density with.

Other things you will want to consider are getting a good case gaging tool and a bullet-aligning seating die. I haven't used the RCBS case prep gear, but can vouch for the NECO tool (http://www.neconos.com/shop/?shop=1&cat=10&cart=94459). I find sorting the cases by wall runnout back near the junction of the web with the casehead to be helpful, and the NECO tool does that.

Forster makes a competition type, case and bullet aligning seating die for the Hornet (http://www.forsterproducts.com/store/detail.aspx?ID=29). The small bullets are touchy about alignment, and can open up an inch pretty easily if there is much bullet runout in the finished cartridge. This seater should elimenate that in cases with uniform neck thickness. You can measure neck wall uniformity and runout of loaded rounds in the NECO tool, too.

This is my Hornet; it’s my truck-gun… :cool:

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/Rowdy_444/000_0137.jpg

“all the cases have been fired, neck sized, chamfered and decapped and the primer well scraped out. Will any powder residue in the cases be a detrimental factor to weighing the cases?”

We do all that and then tumble the cases, not for weighing them but to clean the inside of the cases, to allow for a greater powder charge…We shoot um hot, very hot…My buddy, who has a Kimber rifle in 22 Hornet and I have shot a lot of varmints and assorted critters with the Hornet, and have found it to be wonderfully accurate round…I’m not going to give the exact load; but it starts with Rem. 71/2 primer in Rem. brass and using Hornady’s 40gr. VMAX we load using both WW296 and LIL’GUN…My Contender will consistently shoot sub .5” 10 shot groups at 100 yds.off the bench by hand, and even when we switch guns, the Contender will always be the most accurate of the two… :D

Brad- we need more info, are you getting .5”groups now and trying shrink them to .25”is that why you’re weighing cases???

danny

Thanks all for the replies.

I have a case trimmer, but as far as I can set it up, the cases arent long enough to trim any brass off it. The guage wont screw into the little hand held trimmer any further. It may have a piece of metal stuck in the thread. All my gear is made by Lee.

What is the best way to deburr the flash holes? I havent done that to the brass yet and its had a couple of firings.

I tried another batch the other night with brass that had only up to 0.6gr difference and this tightened the group nicely. Under an inch at a smidge over 100 yards. Happy with it now.

Its a ruger 77/22 with a Nikko Stirling 3-9x42 gold crown in top. I did have two threads up recently about it not grouping but they have dissapeared and I have found it was the last batch of reloads that werent grouping as well as I thought. I guess it has only had about 250 shots through it so maybe its still breaking in.

I have made my reloading batches smaller too and checked the powder trickler every second case I refilled to keep things consitent.

And I suppose my load will help.

Old one that wasnt shooting that well

9.5gr AR2205 (equivelant of 296, H110 and 4227 etc)
45gr Sierra hornet projectile
Rem brass
WW primer

New one that grouped nicely

10.8gr AR2205
35gr Hornady V max projectile
Rem brass
WW primer

And another that has shown promise

10.8gr AR2207 (equivelant to 4198)
45gr Sierra hornet projectile
Rem brass
WW primer

And another update... I have sorted the problem with the case trimmer. All cases now are one length. I will have to get a micrometer to measure it, but that takes another varible out of the equation.

I do understand that hornets arent the most accurate calibre around, I just want to get as much as the technical aspects right, so I know that I can be confident using my gear. Its up to me to be able to shoot at the end of the day.

Thanks all for the replies.

I have a case trimmer, but as far as I can set it up, the cases arent long enough to trim any brass off it. The guage wont screw into the little hand held trimmer any further. It may have a piece of metal stuck in the thread. All my gear is made by Lee.

What is the best way to deburr the flash holes? I havent done that to the brass yet and its had a couple of firings.

I tried another batch the other night with brass that had only up to 0.6gr difference and this tightened the group nicely. Under an inch at a smidge over 100 yards. Happy with it now.

Its a ruger 77/22 with a Nikko Stirling 3-9x42 gold crown in top. I did have two threads up recently about it not grouping but they have dissapeared and I have found it was the last batch of reloads that werent grouping as well as I thought. I guess it has only had about 250 shots through it so maybe its still breaking in.

I have made my reloading batches smaller too and checked the powder trickler every second case I refilled to keep things consitent.

Evening Brad,

Pity about the lost threads, my reply went with them.

My experiences reflect those of william iorg.

296 is a good powder in my hornet, available here, OZ as well.

Cheers

Mark

Brad,

I don't know how much expense you are willing to go to? If you want all the bells and whistles, here is what first comes to mind: The other five common steps you can take that remove brass and which should be done before weighing (if you are going to do them) are:

Deburr the flashole
Uniform the flashole with a number reamer that just takes a couple of thousandths off
Uniform the depth of the primer pocket with a tool that cuts the bottom to maximum
Uniforming the primer pocket profile
Outside turning the case neck

Tools for these tasks are available from a number of sources. Two sources are Sinclair (http://www.sinclairintl.com/) and Bruno (http://www.brunoshooters.com/). They all carry deburring and primer pocket depth cutters and outside neck turning tools. The Wilson case trimming tool has a cutter available for primer pocket profiling. It is advertised as being for removing military case crimps, but I've noticed it also improves uniformity of primer seating pressure and concentricity of the primer pockets.

K&M makes the best primer seating tool I've ever tried, including the much more expensive Sinclair tool. It truly allows you to feel exactly when the primer touches down and has a spring-loaded aligning sleeve that ensures the sides of the primer start in perpendicular to the casehead face. If you uniform the primer pocket depth, the priming mechanism on the Forster Co-ax press is another good choice, as it ensures the primer is the same distance from flush with the casehead face each time.

K&M also makes the most easily adjusted outside neck turning tool, It has 0.0001" cutter depth adjustment via a co-axial set screw pair with small pitch differentials. I have heard, however, that using a neck-turning attachment with the Gracey trimmer gives the best uniform results (Glen Zediker's claim).

Guess it's no secret that I tend to simple solutions.

Weight checking Hornet cases is proably the single action that yeilds the most results. Even with a good lot of cases, are looking for the one or two "odd balls".

Primers are the other area where we should take care. Many Hornet rifles do not have the strongest firing pin strikes; enven the ones that do should experiment with primers as that little case seems very sensitive to primer type. My jacketed loads won't break 40K, lead loads proably less than 25K, so i'll even try small pistol primers.

I would often prime the slowest possible way, using an old Lyman 310 (tong tool). Still think that tongtool's priming is one of the best: adjustable depth, mechanical lock, and a visual reference (you can see the primers going in). Would usually spin the case 180degrees and seat the primer a second time.

Realize that rim thickness is waht really governs primer seating (and controls headspace)...most prime tools use a shell holder type device to hold the case...and if the rim is of various thickness, then the primer is seated to various depths (and headspace varies as well). So if you want to spend the day sorting, can not only sort by weight, but can sourt out the thick and thin rims as well.

Personally, I've got to draw the line somehwere. Ill set up a pass gauge (a caliper)...those rims that slid though way too easy go in one pile...those that won't go through at all in another...and the vast majority that are the right fit in a thrid.

Hornets are about as accurate as you take the time and attention to small details to make them.

You can get a flashhole trimmer from Lyman Products (do a Google) to both trim the excess brass punched into the case and true up the flashhole itself.

I have a Ruger 77/22 in .22 Hornet. I use the 35 gr Hornady V-max with 13.0 gr Hodgdon Li'l Gun and a CCi BR4 primer in W-W brass that gets neck sized only. This gives around 3050 fps chronographed and MOA accuracy if the wind isn't too bad and I'm watching what I'm doing.

Ok this is all great info I really appreciate it.

I use the Lee Primer Pocket Cleaner and after a few turns of it, I use a cotton bud to wipe any residue out. It also cleans into the flash hole a little.

Will do another batch and see how it all goes with trimmed brass and clean primer pockets.

Thanks

Brad, here's a couple of my observations re. the Hornet (I started with a Ruger #1 that was lucky to shoot 3" groups @ 100 yards, and now consistently shoots ragged one hole 10 shot groups.)

-In my search for accurate loads in the Hornet, I weighed my brass, and found some interesting results. I compared Winchester and Remington brass for my 22 Hornet. Both sets of brass were resized (neck only), trimmed to length, and flash hole deburred. The winchester brass averaged 53gr, varying between 49 and 57 grains. That is a huge deviation for this little case. The nickel plated Remington brass averaged 48 grains, varying between 47.8 and 48.5 grains. 200 rounds of each brand were used for this comparison. The Remington brass was much more consistent, and also lighter therefore with greater powder capacity. My maximum load with the 40gr V-Max and A1680 is only slightly compressed in the Remington brass, but the Winchester brass won't hold the same powder charge (it spills several 10ths off the top). This is all with fired and neck sized brass.

-The Hornady V-Max bullet, particularly the 40 grain, but also the 35, are the most accurate in my rifle. I see a very noticable difference if I use Ballistic Tips or any of the Sierra bullets.

-H110 powder worked the best with the 35 grain bullet, but wasn't as consistent as I would like. It really didn't work well for me with the 40gr bullets.

-I switched to A1680 for the 40gr V-Max, and load it hot. This gives me very consistent velocity and very accurate groups. I can't get enough of this powder in the case for good velocity with the 35gr bullets though.

-I only size about .250" of the case neck, nothing else, just enough to hold the bullet. This allows for maximum powder capacity, which is important in the Hornet, and best fit to the chamber.

-I seat the 35gr bullet to published specs, since it is too short to reach the lands anyway. The 40gr V-max gets seated .020" off the lands, which leaves it seated in the case only about .100" or so, not very much. This is way over published specs, and won't work in most bolt actions, but is fine in a single shot. It allows a lot more powder capacity.