You all know I live hear in the great State Of Idaho. We are in really deep trouble with the wolf reintroduction.

I have been doing research on this for about a month now and did not realize how much trouble we are in hear.

My daughter is a freelance writer. Last friday I took her to Salmon Idaho to talk to Outfitters, Fish&Game and other people in this fine town. She can't say it but I can. When you hear consistant stories from the outfitters and conflicting storie from Idaho Fish&Game, it is enough to make you sick. If they delisted the wolf tomorrow, our hunting is just about a thing of the past in our great State.

For those of you who know this area, from Idaho Falls over Gilmore summit to Salmon, we seen about 14 head of Elk. At this time we should have seen 4 or 5 hundred. from Salmon down to the Ranger Station on the North Fork we Seen 8 head of Elk. From Salmon going to river to Challis and then over threw Macky to Blackfoot we seen 2 does at the bridge in Challis. I have seen thousands of animals in the past on these roads at this time of year.

Does Suzanne Stone of defenders of wildlife run our State now?

Ron

Yup, I live up by Orofino and hunt around Dwarshak and Pierce. Camped three weeks out by Campbell pond a few miles from Pierce this year. Listened to the wolves every evening and saw no elk. Even the deer were hard to find.

Last year camped up Orofino Creek out of Pierce and saw two cow elk in three weeks. Last I heard Fish and Game was talking about taking 51 wolves out of this area with some kind of special hunt. When I talked to them in Lewiston at their regional office none of them quite knew what was going on.

When I was stationed in Alaska in the late seventies they were going thru wolf problems there concerning aerial hunting. I remember bumper stickers saying "eat cariboo, ten thousand wolves can't be wrong". I kinda thought it was funny right up til a few years ago when the elk began declining in direct ralation to the wolf population,

quit buying elk tags, they'll get the message.

Money talks.

I don't know if that whole not buying tags thing is going to do any good. It would take a lot to get people to sign on for that. I am a guide out west and agree that is effecting the hunting there. I don't think it was the best idea in the world to intruduce these dogs but they are here and it is going to be very hard if not imposible to remove them at this point. They arn't even sure how many are out there at this point. I think we are just going to have to hang on until they open up a season for them and then I will be getting paid for taking people on wolf hunts instead of elk. and if the hunting never opens up, it is going to have to get alot worse before it gets better.

quit buying elk tags, they'll get the message.

Money talks.

Unfortunately, our state F&G has had it's hands tied by the US Fish & Wildlife on this issue, until recently. It is NOW in the hands of Idaho, although still with the heavy hand of the Fed govt with many hoops to go through before any control can be undertaken. As we all should be aware, the wheels of govt don't turn fast enough for the real world. If we don't buy elk tags, there may not be sufficient funds for effective wolf control.

Two wolves were recently killed in the East Fk of the Salmon drainage due to livestock depredation. As yet, no wolf killing can take place for excessive elk killing.

I too am very concerned about this situation.

the whole idea of government is to self perpetuate. if they lose money for jobs and growth, then they'll do something.

shoot, shovel and shutup

good point Recoil, with "shutup" being the key word. I mean, do it alone, by yourself, and nada word.

the whole idea of government is to self perpetuate. if they lose money for jobs and growth, then they'll do something.

In the big scheme of things, Idaho is a fart in the wind of the minds of Washington and the effects of job loss. Now, ID, WY, MT combined might have some pull....hopefully.

recoil, I saw on the news there were two wolves "on the ice" on some pond in Denver. Congratulations!

My word from a friend in Idaho Fish and Game is there going to get rid of at least 51 up in this country. It's going to some kind of open season, but they havn't decided how or exactly when. I'm sure some kind of tags will be on sale.

I know that in the last three years of hunting, though I've seen tracks and heard packs, I have yet to see a wolf.

This is not going to be easy hunting unless we can use bait. I've called yotes for years and mabbe that may be a little effective.

I've been hearing rumors of Colorado planning to introduce wolves to help control CWD in the elk and deer. Some hearings (for which an admission fee was charged) have been held in the past on wolves in the state and Sinapu is strongly pushing for them in Colorado. I've also heard of some activists wanting the reintroduction of grizzlies.

My Dad is a pilot with AZ game and fish and they often track the Wolves reintroduced to the White Mountains by radio telemetry. I would caution against killing Wolves and then trying to hide it. When one is killed that has a collar, they know about it pretty quick from the lack of movement. They are on to things pretty quick and will investigate that sort of thing, as has happened in the past. Just a heads up that one might get into trouble and loose their rights/guns, not trying to be "pro wolf" at all. I understand the arguement you guys are making here, and disagree with the Govt reintroducing these Wolves.

I promised I would not mention his name, one outfitter we talked with has 3 packs in his area. He has seen 6 wolves himself. He says the same thing, how do you hunt them if you can't see them?

I was not talking breaking the law, but I do think we need to get ahold of our elected people and cry loud before our way of life is gone.

when you talk to fish & game and talk to the people, the no#s do not ad up!!!!!!!

My word from a friend in Idaho Fish and Game is there going to get rid of at least 51 up in this country.

That's good news Bob. I'd like to hunt the Clearwater region again, and have some hope of seeing some elk while doing it. I hope it doesn't take them too long to implement this.

OK this is my take on the situation. Shooting the wovles your self won't do anything. it might make you feel better but it won't do nothing as far as controling the population. as far as somone calling in a wolf it can be done, but you better kill the wolf the first time you see it because they will never fall for that one twice.
As far as the Fish in Game taking some of the wolves a fellow guide has lost a few hunting dogs to the wolves and the F&G are planing to kill the pack that is now hunting the dogs for a food source. I would write more but I am just told dinner is ready... wirte later

ICS,
Yes it does.
Packs range over a very wide area, but they have regular routes. They are no good for controling CWD... they usually pass on sick animals. As for making arrangements to see them (public forum) it isn't that hard, but it requires careful planning, cuz, you will only get one oppertunity to take a picture of the whole pack at once. Several cammeras are needed at different angles to make the most of your single oppertunity. ;)
Dan

Wonder how they respond to fox or coyote calls :rolleyes:

Saw a dead one on top of Reynolds Pass between Henry's Lake Idaho and Quake lake MT. Didnt have a collor on but still nobody picked it up. Kinda like a dead pelican. There for everybody to look at but even the dog won't roll in it. :eek:

I guess one might need to look for a collar before shooting, but if the mistake is made, wipe the collar off and put it on a truck heading back east.

ICS,
They are no good for controling CWD... they usually pass on sick animals.

Not true...predators will take an easy meal anytime they can get it including a sick animal that can't run or defend itself. It's part of natural selection.

We had wolves before the federal government introduced foreign wolves. I know because I saw them, and enjoyed their company. And because I’ve seen and been with them, I can tell you that the introduced wolves are a whole different species. Both classify as gray wolves, but that is a large family.

Idaho was in equilibrium with our wolves. Very good for us and the wolves. That’s why the federal government intervened; they can’t stand to see anything that works; if it works, fix it until it doesn’t seems to be their motto.

Idaho Fish & Game has some great biologists, know their stuff and are very dedicated to the public good. That’s not what they are hired for. They are hired so that some political appointee can put their names on their recommendations.

Introduced foreign wolves are much larger, and tend to form larger packs. Figure their first order of business was to run our native wolves off. Now, I want to get rid of all the wolves the federal government planted, and their offspring. But I also want to see our native species back to where it was. Is very important. Having seen the results of the federal government killing off the native species back in my birth state of Illinois (and replacing them with coyotes), I don’t want our native wolves eliminated. I just want them back!

Really wish we had a governor, like one other state, with the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the federal government and challenge them on what is an internal state issue, rather than a federal issue. That other governor don’t have no foreign wolves to contend with.

As far as diseased animals, these wolves, like some men, kill just for the fun of it. Don’t eat but a fraction of what they kill.

One of our local weekly papers, The Wood River Journal, has part one of a three part series in the paper this week. They have a chronology of the Wolf Recovery Plan and it reveals that in year 2000, the USFWS determined that the goal of 30 breeding pairs (in the tri-state area of ID, WY, MT) had been achieved, and thus began a 3-year "countdown" to trigger proposals to delist the wolf. In 2001, 35 breeding pairs are estimated. In 2002, 43 breeding pairs are estimated. In 2003, 51 breeding pairs are estimated, and 761 total wolves. In 2004, 66 breeding pairs, and 835 wolves.

Numbers for 2005 are not given, but projecting out approximate percentage increase, it's likely that there are something like 80 breeding pairs and 950 wolves. That is more than 2.5 times the target of 30 breeding pairs, and more than 5 years after that target was achieved that we're finally at a point of some local control.

As I have stated before, govt moves much too slowly to respond to real life, and our wildlife - elk in particular - are going to be adversely impacted for years to come.

Shawn,
Those numbers are indicating large packs, also note their indicating that pack size in diminishing. They indicate that there are enough wolves of breeding age, subordinate in the packs, to double or triple breeding pairs in a single season. The wolf population could explode any time now.
Will also note that people north and west of you, who spend much time in the forests, claim the official numbers are but a third of the real numbers.
What experiences have you had with wolves, before and after planting?

Just found out that Tim Sundles’ trial is now set for 3/7/06. Was moved back from December 2005 to February 2006 and is now set for 3/7/06 9:30 am before Judge Williams in Pocatello. That’s for any interested in following the trial.
Mr. Sundles is accused of illegally trying to poison a wolf on federal land near his home. Culprit got a dog instead. Dog recovered.
I don’t know whether Mr. Sundles did or didn’t, don’t know the man and have little faith in the accuracy of much I’ve read. But I do have a major problem with the proposition that the man who makes Buffalo Bore ammunition would try to poison a wolf and not use enough poison to kill a dog.
Is a heinous crime, one of a rash of such poisonings, mostly of dogs, across Idaho and Wyoming. I hope our government does get the people who did these crimes and the judges throw the book at them. That’s a hope, not an expectation. Can’t imagine what sort of proof could be gathered as to who the guilty are and such crimes rarely get even a hand slap.

silvertipmo,

I agree on the Sundles case, I don't beleive what I read. Mr. Sundles spends a lot of time in th back country, If he wanted to poison wolves I think he would leave it back in the back country, not trailheads. I could be very wrong, but I think he was set up!

The wolf population could explode any time now.

Personally, I believe that is already happening. I don't have any firsthand experience to back that up, only related stories from other hunters and people living out in the boonies around here. I agree that the numbers are likely understated.


Will also note that people north and west of you, who spend much time in the forests, claim the official numbers are but a third of the real numbers.
What experiences have you had with wolves, before and after planting?

Honestly, I have never seen a wolf! And I do spend quite a lot of time outdoors. I have seen tracks. However, for the last several years, the elk bowhunters in the area have reported wolves coming into their elk calling. I know several people that have spent years hunting the East Fk of the Salmon River and they report that it's a wasteland as far as elk numbers go. People south of me, out on the high desert, around Richfield are seeing wolves. Large numbers are definitely entrenched in and around the Stanley basin.

The fact that I have never seen a wolf is I think more a function of where I mostly spend my time, in my little valley where there are many people out hiking trails, etc, on a daily basis. Wolves don't like being around humans, and I think the relatively high human traffic somewhat keeps the wolves on the periphery of this area. I'm still seeing good elk calf numbers in the wintering herds here, although those herds are right here among the human population. However, I am seeing absolutely no coyotes here, and I've never seen that situation before, which makes me think that the wolves are here and have run them out.

Tybo,
When one of own gets charged with something that terrible and beyond the pale, we all hope “it ain’t so”. Your point also makes one doubt the charge. Having seen dogs caught in traps and encountered traps that were forgotten, or the trapper died, but whatever the reason are still out and set years later where children and pets may be injured; I find it hard to believe anyone with Mr. Sundles’ experience would set poison out like that. Will be following the trial, if they ever stop postponing it.

Shawn,
I don’t live in wolf territory. For that reason, when individuals break off from their pack to seek a mate and start their own pack, they sometimes come through here. Neutral territory, kind of a wolf singles bar. At least they used to; we also had a lot of beaver then and that was a favorite prey at that time of year. I liked the areas formed by the beavers for both hunting and fishing. That’s how I happened to see one out here way back. Was red (color not species, was a red Gray Wolf) 80-90 pounds (closer to 80, just a touch larger than a Red Wolf) and in a real good mood. That was one happy wolf; on his own, well fed on beaver and looking for love. A lot different than encountering a hungry pack defending their territory.
Haven’t encountered any of the transplants, but hear they are a lot larger, around 125 pounds. Also hear from people who have encountered both the old and new wolves that the transplants are a whole other breed.
No coyotes is definitely a sign of wolves; only way I know of to get rid of coyotes is wolves.

We had the second of a three part series on wolves in our local paper this week. In the article they state that "Today,...we have over 600 wolves in Idaho roaming the state with 200,000 whitetail deer, 300,000 mule deer, and 125,000 elk." The numbers for 2005 have now been estimated for the tri-state area; 600 in ID, 153 in MT, and 200 in WY. Also in the article..."At the end of 2005, Idaho alone had over 60 documented packs, with over 33 breeding pairs."

ID F&G has maintained 4 elk feeding stations, now feeding approx 450 elk. They used to feed more than 800. F&G state that the wolves are the reason for the lower numbers at the feeding stations. In the winter of '04/'05, there were 43 elk kills along a 20-mile stretch of road in the Big Smoky's north of Fairfield. They noted that those "....were only the observed kills along the road."

"The northern Yellowstone National Park elk herd has seen a drop in numbers from 17,000 to 8,000 since the wolf reintroduction.....each....wolf killed 23.4 big game animals each year....ninety percent of the animals killed were elk." Applying statistical numbers, "....600 wolves in Idaho...equal 12,636 elk killed by wolves...in a year." That's 10% of our total elk population!

Much more to the article for those that would like to read it. http://www.wrjournal.com/articles/2006/02/16/news/top_story/top_story.txt

Just a side shot........If you fellows think you have trouble with wolves, come to Florida and play with out Gators (Lizard Grande)! The Feds said they were being killed off years ago and closed gator hunting! They didn't see many and didn't have sense enough to know hide-hunting put them way back into the swamps........and of coures, they would not listen to the Crackers! Then, all of a sudden, you started seeing 12'-14' gators.......Takes time to grow one like that! Then the tourist starting feeding them. Every year more and more people are caught by "tame gators". You don't hear much about it now days as it hurts the tourist trade. Down here we say...."eat mo' gator!".........those Beartooth Bullets work good on River Pests!........James

James,
I prefer our Idaho gators; if they wander out of the hot springs, they go dormant. Gator farming is catching on here to dispose of the culls from the fish farms.
When I lived in Fort Lauderdale, the canals were lousy with them. Couldn’t let your dog or child out in the back yard without doing a full check. Federal government protecting them. What’s their status now?

Shawn,
An average wolf pack can’t eat a whole elk; if they could, would only require about 6 elk per wolf per year to maintain breeding diet. Most of the kills are just to be killing, the wolves are worse than poachers. I’m hearing estimates, from people back in wolf areas, of 3,000 wolves in Idaho.

Every time I hear someone setting out to prove Bigfoot, I shudder. All we need is another endangered species for the federal government to interfere with. And they’d never get a tenth of them counted.

I grew up in the Idaho Falls area and remember the debate that went on for years about reintroducing wolves into Yellowstone. I also remember when the ranchers up around Ashton were having problems with Grizzlies coming out of Yellowstone....hmmmm, that lems just seemed to go away.

My wife's cousin ranches out in the Pahsimeroi River basin and told us a story of how the Fish and Game trapped a male grey wolf and the head waters of the Pahsimeroi River. That isnt so important until you learn that this particular male, and it was a very big male, was originally released in centeral Yellowstone Park. That ****ed dog was tracked out of Wyoming, up into Montana and over the continental divide into the headwaters of the Pahsimeroi River.

I really think that the problem will get worse before it gets better with all the animal rights and tree huggers involved. I remember as a young man all the rabbit drives around the Mud Lake area but since the early 80's there hasnt been another rabbit boom like before. It so happens that about that time the bleeding hearts were starting to cut into the fur business and the price of coyote pelts hit bottom so no one hunted or trapped them anymore and the rabbits were put in check. Now that was great for the hay farmers but the sheep and cattle ranchers are now fighting the battle. That same cousin of my wife that told the story of the wolf is always thining out the coyotes as he is a cattle and sheep rancher.

I was really looking forward to retiring back to Idaho after the military but it sounds like the pickings might be thin for a few years.

Good Luck to all, its a ****ed shame that special interest groups always seem to win out. I wonder if the great people of the state are finally losing the battle of the hollywood types in Sun Valley and the ilk spilling over from Jackson Hole through the Teton Valley.

Our local paper had the 3rd in a 3-part series of articles on the wolf this week. For those interested: http://www.woodriverjournal.com/articles/2006/02/24/news/local_news/bstory.txt. Unfortunately, you don't get the Idaho map in the on-line article that shows the distribution of the wolf packs in Idaho. They are essentially all over, from Mountain Home north. Wolf management will cost our Fish & Game $837,000 per year.

I do wonder, however, if the wolves are improving the mule deer population, or if other factors (a string of mild winters) are more prominant. Mule deer numbers and quality seem to have improved the last few years, possibly due to less elk competition for the same habitat?

We'll it's obvious the left wingers plans for the west pushed during the CLinton years are now bearing the desired results.

Close forest service roads to keep hunters out, stop logging so that game habitat is no longer being created, introduce wolf and grizzly and stop bear and cougar hunting w/ dogs to displace man at the top of the food chain.

No need for hunters...nothing left to hunt anyway...so why the need for guns at all?

Just pay you taxes and shut up...they know what's best for us.
It ain't just the wolves that needs shootin'.

Yeah, I can't figure out the people that somehow justify in their minds that man is not a part of nature and should somehow be excluded from it.

By the way, most of the talk of wolves involves the "tri-state" region of ID, WY, MT, but they are now in NV, UT, CO, and very likely OR and WA too. Brace yourselves.

Oh, the photo oppertunities ;) So gather your friends for a fun filled outing of shutterbuging. Just remember that the packs are "photosensitive"; so you'll only get one crack at 'em.....make the most of the situation.
Dan

Guys,
Another thing I can not understand, defenders of wildlife and the Feds think they have to have the Wolf back and feel so sorry for them BUT! at the expense of all the other animals. Do they think there is only room for predators?

I live in southwest WA, but we get Portland OR TV. Even the pbs channel is becoming educated as the folks in NE Oregon are getting very concerned.

Still...you just can't get the media to connect the dots. ANy xxxx (insert "bear", "cougar", "wolf", "coyote" or "deer")attack/encounter with humans is always due to our encroaching on their habitat. Even if it's in a town that was built in the 1880's and now has less people than it had 100 years ago. Even when the cougars prowl the school grounds in the big cities.

I yell at the TV..."Idiots!...there's more cougars now cause we can't hunt them w/ dogs!!!", but it does no good.

SUpport the NRA Free Hunters, support Rocky mOuntain Elk FOundation. It could all be gone in 10 years if we don't.

Leverite,

A lot of the research I have done on this Wolf deal surprised me. A lot of old supporters of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation are leaveing them since they have been giving money to inivros.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bears1mar01,0,7687234.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines

Here it is...the same mantra...infringing on their habitat.

Only thing is that the #of bears has INCREASED significantly...especially near cities.

Don't confuse them wildlife scientists with the facts...it's just too hard for them to accept the reality of the situation. They were raised on "man bad...animals good".

Black bears are more likely to flee from humans; and more likely to eat humans. Where I live, black bears and cougar have been the norm. Not seen sign of the bears in a while, and cougar sign on the decline; also have had elk move in these last few years (local thing with a huge winter deer kill).
So what has my local deer herd spooked now? I’m hoping our native wolves have found a refuge here. Ones the government planted are about half again as big; and definitely not remotely native.
Today is the first in a while I have not seen deer at my pasture. Have had elk coming in, too. Thing that bothers me is that they come in AFTER I’m out there; and are only concerned about what is back in the mountains. No reason for them to be coming in now!
Going back years, yes; I’ve had cougar on the back porch and bear on the front. But their numbers here seem to be in a decline. Talking just my immediate area.

Bear and cougar populations are way up in WA since the ban on hunting w/ hounds.

Noticeable decline in elk and mulies.

Here is the latest news on our wolf overpopulation here in Idaho. It is interesting to now the email campaign put on by the pro-wolf folks.

Idaho seeks OK to kill up to 43 wolves

by Christopher Smith

The Associated Press

BOISE, Idaho — Idaho will ask the federal government for authority to kill most of the wolves in a pack that is preying on dwindling numbers of elk in the state's Lolo Pass region.

Members of the Idaho Fish and Game Commission voted unanimously Friday to ask the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service for permission to eliminate up to 43 of the estimated 58 wolves in the Lolo pack roaming the Clearwater River Basin in northern Idaho to try to help rebuild an elk herd in the popular hunting area.

Though the wolves — reintroduced into the state in 1995 — are protected under the Endangered Species Act, the federal agency last year modified a provision of the law to allow Idaho to kill wolves that are reducing big-game animal numbers below state wildlife-management goals.

Killing is allowed only if the agency agrees with the state's science in deciding that killing the wolves, rather than other means, would restore game populations to the desired level.

The commission directed the Department of Fish and Game staff to incorporate the latest estimates of the Lolo elk numbers along with comments from the public and peer reviewers into a document that outlines the scientific reasons why the state believes "immediate and appropriate" reductions of the wolf population in the area are necessary.

Commissioners said they were confident the state had the data and biological science to back up the need to kill most of the wolves in the pack.

A national wildlife conservation group said the decision to go ahead with the wolf kill was irresponsible and politically motivated.

"The scientific community at large is very critical of the state's proposal because it is clearly the loss of habitat, not predators, that is responsible for the decline in the elk population in the Lolo area," said Suzanne Stone of Defenders of Wildlife. "This decision reveals that the true intention of the state is not to manage wolves, but to eradicate them by any means possible."

The group staged an e-mail campaign that generated almost all of the 42,000 public comments received on the state's proposal.

Huge wildfires in the early 20th century left behind brushy vegetation in the Clearwater drainage where elk herds could flourish, giving hunters ample opportunity into the 1980s. But the number of elk in the region declined in the 1990s as the forests rebounded with trees, limiting the natural habitat for elk to browse.

State biologists contend the poor habitat is being compounded by predation by wolves, which were introduced into the drainage in 2000. The state says wolves have been responsible for 32 percent of elk deaths in the Lolo region since 2002.

Fish and Game Department Director Steve Huffaker said federal officials have told him that it could take several months for the Fish and Wildlife Service to review the state's application.

Originally, Idaho had hoped to get federal approval and begin killing wolves this winter, but Huffaker said that is unlikely.

"And we all know this is going to end up in court anyway," said Commissioner Gary Power.

Thx for the info Bob. Seems that the same anti's that always claim to be "the" advocates for wildlife are also the ones that are always opposing any logging, which would also help the Lolo herds out. Disconnects in logic like this always lead to the one common thread - they are simply anti-hunting, period.

Preaty sad to me that we are told that everyday Wolf control is turned over to the State of Idaho and Idaho still has no say so in the matter. When the Feds and defenders of wildlife are partnerd up to take our hunting rights away from us. The defenders of wildlife are beating us up bad by staying on top of what is going on. I was watching a couple of weeks ago when they has a pole in the Challis paper about the Lolo Wolf. All of the inviros went over an voted and beat us up real bad. I was in Challis that week and the people there could not believe it.

Preaty sad to me that we are told that everyday Wolf control is turned over to the State of Idaho and Idaho still has no say so in the matter. When the Feds and defenders of wildlife are partnerd up to take our hunting rights away from us. The defenders of wildlife are beating us up bad by staying on top of what is going on. I was watching a couple of weeks ago when they has a pole in the Challis paper about the Lolo Wolf. All of the inviros went over an voted and beat us up real bad. I was in Challis that week and the people there could not believe it.

tybo,
While I don't know how this poll was conducted, I would assume that it was a non-scientific poll in the paper or via on-line through the Challis paper website? If so, anyone, whether living in the area or not, could affect the poll, and I can't see how the results could be taken seriously by any decision makers. But you are right, "they" are more organized and involved in the issue than the locals. The Challis area is definitely a conservative-leaning community, but that doesn't mean the paper is. Were the questions, or question of the poll leading towards a certain answer?

I’m thinking the only scientific poll that counts is the one on the ballot. Perhaps an initiative on the state ballot would be a good idea.

Another thing I’ve proposed is that people in states where exotic wolves have been planted should be given a free vacation every year to go back to the liberal states and have full access to all private property there to replace what they have lost to wolves. Talking raiding liberal freezers of food and any live stock, pets, hunting dogs, etc. they want. Nothing off limits.

Also, with their ice pack shrinking, I say it’s high time polar bears (formerly called marine bears) were re-introduced to Chesapeake Bay; high time they wander D.C. like they do Alaskan towns.

Shawn, you are right, it was a non scientific pole. When it comes down to a pole like that we can beat them hands down. Will be meeting with Ron Gillette in the next weel from Stanley. He is head of the Anti Wolf. We need to get 47,000 signatures on the ballot by July.

One thing I think that very interesting, IF! the defenders of wildlife and the Feds let Idaho kill the Wolves in Lolo, how long, even with chopers is it going to take? I think they will find out just how smart they are.

Tim Sundles’ trial has been postponed yet again; new date not yet set. I’ll stop trying to keep up on this until the trial actually starts. It’s just with him owning Buffalo Bore and the trial being on my turf and nothing coming out in the news, I thought I should keep everyone current.

tybo,
How does one lay hands on one of those petitions?
I think the genie is out of the bottle, not likely to ever get rid of the exotics. And I don’t want to think what it will cost to try, at government prices.
I think the best is to completely de-list the exotic wolves, not our natives, and let the people who live with them do what they think best. A healthy wolf population is all but invisible.

Tim Sundles’ trial has been postponed yet again; new date not yet set. I’ll stop trying to keep up on this until the trial actually starts. It’s just with him owning Buffalo Bore and the trial being on my turf and nothing coming out in the news, I thought I should keep everyone current.

tybo,
How does one lay hands on one of those petitions?
I think the genie is out of the bottle, not likely to ever get rid of the exotics. And I don’t want to think what it will cost to try, at government prices.
I think the best is to completely de-list the exotic wolves, not our natives, and let the people who live with them do what they think best. A healthy wolf population is all but invisible.

silvertipmo, I think you are right on all counts. I don't think they have any evidence agains't Tim.
The cat is out of the bag bigtime. You get reading the Feds websight on they want out of it now. They should not have buddied up with defenders of wildlife. Going to send you a pm.

I read a report about using motorized ultralites to pursue and shoot wolves in Montana.

I live in West Central Wisconsin.About 10years ago the state
re-interduced the wolf.They put most of them in the nortern
part of the state.The DNR wardens are trying to figure out what happen to the wolf in my part of the state and why is there only 6packs of wolves in notheren part of the state ,still.
:rolleyes:

As an East coaster, I have a question. Are the wolves simply pushing/dispersing the elk? Are the guides and F&G managers finding a lot of carcasses from depradation?

Seems your state could use a really good game biologist to do a statewide survey. Fortunately for us here in PA we have Gary Alt, one of the best in the country. His research dramatically helped our black bear population, and now we have increased hunting on that species because of his field work. Currently he is researching/surveying our states whitetail population. Find someone at Idaho's F&G that has the knowledge and fortitude to speak up. Only then will things improve.

Tim Sundles’ trial is now set for 7/31/06; not saying it will happen then. The many delays are from the standard stuff in our legal system, wouldn’t read too much into them.

Idaho Fish & Game breaks into 3 branches: enforcement, biologists and politicos. The politicos basically run the show, have the last edit on what the other two say. The enforcement people, by and large, are as wonderful a group as one could hope to meet. There has been a glaring exception or two, but overwhelmingly they are great people. Our biologists are well trained and very dedicated; their work is a labor of love. Both the enforcement and biologists spend much of their free time in the mountains and streams they love and have dedicated their careers to. They know which way the stick floats. Problem is the politicos. Is a long, sad and sorry tale of the things the biologists have tried to accomplish for Idaho that have been shot down by the politicos.

Canadian wolves, not the same as our natives, are killing game and stock in numbers our natives did not even begin to approach. I said killing, not eating. Our natives were invisible, unless one spent time in their areas. So many of us knew them, now miss them. Exotics ran them off.

There is much evidence of running the herds. People seeing cows with no calves suggests stalking pressure on the surviving population. There is also much evidence of wolf sport killing; killing but not eating. One can still see over 100 head in one look at several places, just not as many as before; and not with young. There are many elk and deer wintering with human populations.
This last winter has been strange. Moving through our pastures is the rule, grazing them not uncommon. But moving into our pastures and yards, and trying to pass for stock is, well, just weird. Seen them grazing, paying no attention to dogs or cars, but a very careful watch ONLY on the public land beyond. I come out to do chores, they move TO me. Several neighbors had them move into, and bed down in, their back yards; ALL WINTER. And they stayed with us long after the grazing was better on public land. My horses finally got rather indignant about it.
Didn’t see me no calves, and precious few fawns, this last winter. Killing is one thing, especially if they eat what they kill. But not enough attention has been paid to the effect of constant stalking on a herd. The herd moves to less advantageous grazing, and stops reproducing in their normal numbers. That is what we are seeing, as well as a lot of uneaten kills.

Tim Sundles’ trial is now set for 7/31/06; not saying it will happen then. The many delays are from the standard stuff in our legal system, wouldn’t read too much into them.

Idaho Fish & Game breaks into 3 branches: enforcement, biologists and politicos. The politicos basically run the show, have the last edit on what the other two say. The enforcement people, by and large, are as wonderful a group as one could hope to meet. There has been a glaring exception or two, but overwhelmingly they are great people. Our biologists are well trained and very dedicated; their work is a labor of love. Both the enforcement and biologists spend much of their free time in the mountains and streams they love and have dedicated their careers to. They know which way the stick floats. Problem is the politicos. Is a long, sad and sorry tale of the things the biologists have tried to accomplish for Idaho that have been shot down by the politicos.

Canadian wolves, not the same as our natives, are killing game and stock in numbers our natives did not even begin to approach. I said killing, not eating. Our natives were invisible, unless one spent time in their areas. So many of us knew them, now miss them. Exotics ran them off.

There is much evidence of running the herds. People seeing cows with no calves suggests stalking pressure on the surviving population. There is also much evidence of wolf sport killing; killing but not eating. One can still see over 100 head in one look at several places, just not as many as before; and not with young. There are many elk and deer wintering with human populations.
This last winter has been strange. Moving through our pastures is the rule, grazing them not uncommon. But moving into our pastures and yards, and trying to pass for stock is, well, just weird. Seen them grazing, paying no attention to dogs or cars, but a very careful watch ONLY on the public land beyond. I come out to do chores, they move TO me. Several neighbors had them move into, and bed down in, their back yards; ALL WINTER. And they stayed with us long after the grazing was better on public land. My horses finally got rather indignant about it.
Didn’t see me no calves, and precious few fawns, this last winter. Killing is one thing, especially if they eat what they kill. But not enough attention has been paid to the effect of constant stalking on a herd. The herd moves to less advantageous grazing, and stops reproducing in their normal numbers. That is what we are seeing, as well as a lot of uneaten kills.

I've seen much the same thing, elk on the move and never yarding up like they used to. Even the deer are skittish and moving into yards and areas near housing. Here in Peck our year round deer population now near a hundred. A fella from Elk city whom plows snow sees lots of wolves and few elk now where there were many. The elk don't brush up like they used to, just move, move, move.

Up on the North fork of the Clearwater where I used to count thousands in the spring if you see a hundred now it's a lot.

I don't see an answer to this. Like you say I know many of the fish and game folks and they are as frustrated as most of the sportsman. Pro wolf folks going to use the courts to make management as impossible as they can. There seem to be some deep pockets on the pro-wolf side, at least enough to tie any regulation up in court til it costs to much to actually implement it.

We've had enough instances of human/wolf interaction now that it's only a matter of time til someone is hurt or killed in the woods. It will be interesting how the pro-wolf folks explain that one.

As an East coaster, I have a question. Are the wolves simply pushing/dispersing the elk?

They are doing that, but that's not all. After all, they are eating "something", right? Biologist estimate that in the Rocky Mtns, elk make up 80% of the wolves' diet. Also, pushing/dispersing the elk, even though they might not directly kill elk in a particular chase, very likely eventually kills some from the stress of the chase (or, put another way, depletes their energy reserves), especially in the springtime.

Seems your state could use a really good game biologist to do a statewide survey.

Biology isn't the problem. As Silvertipmo pointed out, it's political. The 3-state region achieved wolf reintroduction goals in year 2000. Yet, we still don't have management control of the wolves. Note that it's widely reported that management was turned over to Idaho this year. That's only (an attempt at least) to appease the anti-wolf side of the issue. Idaho still has to submit plans for wolf control to USF&W, with many layers more of oversite.

Idaho now has 6x the number of wolves set forth in the reintroduction plan. It's to the point that I think it's going to take a wolf killing somebody before any real action takes place to control this scourge.

Was taking the opportunity today to brush up on Arizona Game and Fish 2006 regulations and found some interesting info. Part of which was that 23 of the introduced Mexican gray wolves to the Ariz/New Mex. border area have been shot. State law says you can shoot any wild animal that poses a threat of bodily injury to you or another person. You may not shoot to protect property or domestic animals. Not long ago, there was an announcement of the surviving packs having to be rounded up and re-penned because of losses. Guess they are rethinking the process of reintroduction in this area.

kdub,
Much the same situation here; can shoot wolves in defense of human life, but can also defend livestock on private property, although strict conditions for this. Can only protect human life on public property. Fido is considered a meal.

I just talked to some of the local fish and game guys this afternoon and they said they havn't a clue when or if any kind of culling/shooting season is going to be here in The Clearwater region of Idaho. What a mess

I just talked to some of the local fish and game guys this afternoon and they said they havn't a clue when or if any kind of culling/shooting season is going to be here in The Clearwater region of Idaho. What a mess

Bob
It is so sad that someone is going to have to get hurt for these people to pull their head out of their 6 to get anything done.

You are sooooooo right! what a mess.

Looks like there are more problem wolves out there; no surprise. They are targeting six wolves for killing. Note that Steve Nadeau states that there are "...5-6 times more wolves in Idaho than are necessary for delisting." Multiply that by 10 and we'd be getting somewhere. Here's the story:

www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005111674

It's interesting that in ten years 35 have grown to between 600 (the official estimate) and 1000 (IDFG estimate).

I just watched a pro-wolf show about the packs in Yellowstone. They were touting how the willows were growing back to prominence now that the wolves keep the elk heards from eating them. Same thing is happening up here in Northern Idaho. The elk are much more on the move that I've ever seen in the past 40 plus years of hunting.

I know one thing for sure folks that take the kids to the woods packing and fishing ought to carry some kine of protection. A small light handgun at least. The noise alone can be a real deterrent in case of any kind of animal problem.

Bob,

Isn't it wonderful the feds decided we needed a change hear? it shore made it tuff for us ol buzzards to chase them around the mountains.

2 Weeks ago I was up around my favrite Elk area around Bishop mountain in Island Park. Seen 1 set of Bambi tracts.

My German Shepard stayed right at my hear watching everything with the ears in the air. I would not go into the hills without a firearm again.

It really brakes my heart to see our way of life change so fast.

Bob,

Isn't it wonderful the feds decided we needed a change hear? it shore made it tuff for us ol buzzards to chase them around the mountains.

2 Weeks ago I was up around my favrite Elk area around Bishop mountain in Island Park. Seen 1 set of Bambi tracts.

My German Shepard stayed right at my hear watching everything with the ears in the air. I would not go into the hills without a firearm again.

It really brakes my heart to see our way of life change so fast.


Well the one sure thing is change. I've always carried a revolver or pistol in the woods. I've seen enough bear and couger to be a fan of having something along an outing with bigger fangs or claws. You never know when you might run afoul of a rabid small critter that's given up fear for sickness. Lately I've went from the little 22 revolver I used to carry all the time to a Taurus 41 mag of near the same weight.

As far as the wolves, I'm not setting up an elk camp this year. The last two years were a bust with nothing but track soup. We had wolf tracks in camp every morning and most of the elk tracks I saw were also near wolf tracks. Boy are they keeping them moving. I don't know where they went in the daytime, but got a feeling there not only spread much thinner, but much deeper in the brush when they do brush up.

I guess some if it has to do with being crippled and to old to really get up and down the mountians anymore also. Anyway down here in the Orofino area there still seems to be bunchs of deer, way more near and in town than out further. I don't think the wolves like being near bunchs of people the way coyotes have adapted.

I used to drive up Black canyon every year to count the elk herds, but the last couple of years have been really low counts. I guess were going to get some great willow crops along the creeks without the elk bunching up to eat them. I've noticed were getting more beavers back also.

I don't know if we'll see this wolf thing straightened out in my lifetime. Colorado seems to be the stumbling block to getting total control put back into the states hands.

Even now with some control back in the IDFG hands we've still got to call in the feds for wolf control. Add to that the anti-wolf folks are going to take IDFG to court to fignt every decision and make it as expensive as possible to do anything.

I hate to say this but it seems to be a trend toward the non-hunter. I think DNRs know how much money they get from us and them and they figure ours is a lock but the high power enviro nut groups are donating. I don't know this, but it is the way it looks. They use the recreational folks for a donation base but the poor slugs have no idea of the groups agenda when they join. They think they are helping.

Remember "the more you think you know, the less you know."

Yup! They tell you they want to improve the habitat for the animals, but they forget to tell you that their idea of improving the habitat, is to close it for hunting,

Lets look at the numbers. 35 wolves -> 1,000 wolves in 10 years. Suggests, the way things are going, we will have over 28,000 wolves by 2015. But the Idaho Department of Fish and Game’s numbers are from the politicos, not the biologists. Out of deep respect for both the dedication and the abilities of the men and women of IF&G, I will call them “very conservative”. If one uses current population estimates of locals, the projection rises to over 100,000 by 2015.
That ain’t going to happen, not enough food; our exotics would migrate away. But they would also bring their pernicious selves into town; and our game herds (and stock herds) would be no more.

I question the current population estimates, will also question that only 35 were planted. But the point remains: It is now all but impossible to reduce the EXOTIC population down to the stated goal of 30 breeding pairs, by ANY acceptable means. I don’t hold with poisoning them; scatter approach kill more pets and people than wolves as our state now stands. And a $1,000.00 bounty (no license or tag required) would be more cost effective than hunting from the air.
The feds come to Idaho, but didn’t even bring no Vaseline. We’re losing the “War of Eastern Aggression”; BIG TIME.

Boy, do we have willows! In my naiveté, I thought it was because many years of severe drought were suddenly followed by two wet years, IN A ROW! Shows how ignorant I am. Don’t pay no attention to the above.

I do miss our natives. They were good company. And we belonged together, fit together; in the same natural system. We were partners.

I think the wolf population will level off when the food supply drops. That seems to be the limiting factor for any kind of animal survival.

I also don't believe that just the wolves are the reason for our falling elk population. There are other factors such as lack of big burns keeping the elk browse down substantually along with some really poor game management in the past few years.

I'm sure the growing wolf population is also a big factor. I just wish I could go elk hunting with the same assurance that I would have a pretty good chance of harvesting a nice bull like I did 20 years ago.

I suppose that my failing health hasn't helped any either. This makes getting into the nasty places elk like to hide in much harder. Anyway lots of contributing factors to the elk being fewer.

One thing for sure there's lots of folks out there chasing them. I simply can't believe the size of the camps I saw over the last couple of years. Some of the camping places out of Headquarters, ID had thirty to fifty trailers parked and kept the porta-potti folks busy dumping the rented porta-potties. The elk heard downturn does not seem to have effected the amount of folks out there chasing them.

Sure looks like were going to have bumper willow crops the next few years anyway.

Well we don't have the wolves this far north yet. But its just a matter of time, next year or the year after is my guess.

Got this from marlinowners i though soom of you might like it..
www.shedhead.com/wolves.html

Well we don't have the wolves this far north yet. But its just a matter of time, next year or the year after is my guess.

Got this from marlinowners i though soom of you might like it..
www.shedhead.com/wolves.html

Yup, I don't know how far North you are, but at the rate the wolves are expanding it won't be long. Feds say we only have 500-600. IDFG says they believe were over a thousand.

I don't know for sure if the smaller populations of elk are caused by the wolves, but I know for sure that it does not take many wolves to keep the elk and the deer moving to the point hunting becomes much harder. Even the deer I saw in the areas I hunt elk in seem way more skittish.

I live between Lewiston and Orofino and got a friend with a farm on the Lenore side of the river six miles below me saw a big female with a single half grown pup a couple of weeks ago.

It's going to be really hard to get any kind of control of this situation once we get a large population going. I'm guessing that in this day and age were stuck with a wolf population and the resulting changes it's going to bring to our hunting. Lots of folks I know say they will do the SSS thing (Shoot, shovel and shutup), but in reality most folks are law abiding citizins and it's just a talk game.

Last hunting season someone shot a wolf out of Headquarters and the Feds were all over raising such a stink. As if anyone whom is out hunting would say anything anyway.

Triple S! :p

Anyone know what the average deer/elk consumption is for, say a pack of 4 wolve per week?

Suppose it's anywhere near the cougar's of one per week?

Triple S! :p

Anyone know what the average deer/elk consumption is for, say a pack of 4 wolve per week?

Suppose it's anywhere near the cougar's of one per week?

good question. The wolves we have here are big animals, some of them got to be at least the size of a small cougar. That many big animals, four to a dozen in a pack, got to eat a lot of meat. I know the two 60 pound dogs killed up by Grangeville were totally gone the next day except for the heads.

Well,, we have English sparrows which are not native and of course the infamous "killer bees". Anytime the environmentalists get involved, it is screwed up,, every time..

Well,, we have English sparrows which are not native and of course the infamous "killer bees". Anytime the environmentalists get involved, it is screwed up,, every time..

Now if we could cross the english sparrows with the killer bees and somehow make them only feed on gray wolves???''

Sorry I shure got carried away with that thought.

Now that's funny. I don't care who you are!

Triple S! :p

Anyone know what the average deer/elk consumption is for, say a pack of 4 wolve per week?

Suppose it's anywhere near the cougar's of one per week?

I believe that in the Rocky Mtns they attribute "12 ungulates per year per wolf", and 80% of those are believed to be elk. I'd do the math for the 4 wolves per week, but I don't have a calculator handy. :p In Idaho, assuming somewhere around 1000 wolves, 10,000-12,000 elk are getting whacked.

We are seeing good elk calf numbers here in our little valley, but a neighbor was up in the Stanley basin and looked over a herd of elk, and there were only cows and yearlings, no crop from this spring.

Killer Sparrows,, now that is a scary thought..I have moved from AZ to NY to take care of my elderly parents, but I am sure I will be back in AZ before too long. I have no real problem with a "few" wolves, but they are pretty much at the top of the food chain,, other than man. Without some control, they will most likely wipe out the deer and Elk, at least to a sad state of affairs. I am sure the AZ wolves Kdub mentioned earlier were simply mistaken for Coyotes,, we probably need more mistakes...

Problem is with any preditor if it's food source is gone it's also gone. Our elk heards here in Northern Idaho are suffering from more than wolf predation. The deer in and around the area I live are not just abundent but over abundent.

Elk require different living conditions than deer and are not near as adaptive as the whitetail. Our mule deer also seem to suffering a real decline in the past ten years and I don't think thats a predation problem either.

It will be interesting to see what the wolves will turn to once the elk heards drop to a level that won't sustain them. Will it be the deer or will the wolves turn to the abundent livestock that is available? Will they adapt as well as our coyotes have or like the elk do they require a different and more private inviroment? Will they work closer to city limits and hunt the dog and cat populations as our local coyotes do. I know the yotes around here just salvate over a nice fat poodle.

Anyway lots of questions to be answered now that we are seeing the wolf population grow. I know that we have had two human/wolf interactions this year here in Idaho and more than one case of wolves taking hunting dogs here where I live.

Not to cry wolf, but once the game animals numbers start drastically dropping I believe were going to see more human wolf interaction. I'll bet a dollar to a donut that both the folks here in Idaho whom had the wolf interaction carry some kind of gun when traveling in the woods now.

Bob,

I hate to admit it but this worked real good for me in a very low way.

I had been talking about a marlin 45-70 CB. My wife ask me how they work on wolves. I explained to her how it would knock um flat. I now have my marlin cb! heh heh heh. Am I rotten or what?

Bob,

I hate to admit it but this worked real good for me in a very low way.

I had been talking about a marlin 45-70 CB. My wife ask me how they work on wolves. I explained to her how it would knock um flat. I now have my marlin cb! heh heh heh. Am I rotten or what?

The only lever gun I ever owned was an old Winchester 30-30 my dad gave me after he had a stroke and couldn't deer hunt anymore. I've often looked at the Marlin guns in 45-70 and admired how well they are made and put togather. What a great short ranged deer and elk rifle that, the 444 Marlin and the new 45 Marlin are.

There seems always to be guns I'd like to add to the collection, but being retired on a fixed income has curbed most of those thoughts

That 45-70 would make an excellent wolf protection gun, quick followup shots and plenty of ammo available along with darn good accuracy. I'm in envy. I'm thinkin about selling my 8 mag. It went out the last two years and didn't see one bull elk. Got the new 280 mountian rifle for deer and at this stage in live thats about all I can really handle as far as getting one out of the woods.

You know with all the time I spent in the woods over the last five years I've yet to see a wolf. Sure would like to. Friends whom have say they are almost black. All I've seen is tracks, usually over the top of deer and elk tracks. Had fresh tracks around the hunting camp every morning. Those are sure durn big animals.

A friend of mine gave me a little Taurus 38 special ultra-light and thats been in my pocket more times than not in the woods. It's accurate enough at fifty feet or under to make wolves really sick with 125 grain +P hollowpoints and it's never a bother to carry in a pocket holster. Got a reload in the other pocket. the light 41 magnum seems to stay home more often than not.

I was mistaken in my previous post. I read today in Bugle that they attribute 22 ungulate kills per wolf per year. With that, something around 10%-20% of Idaho's elk are being eaten by wolves, depending upon which number you believe for wolf population. If accurate, elk hunting in Idaho is about to be severely restricted.

Problem is when the wolves were wiped out originally it was done by folks whom were just trying to make a living and keep themselves and their stock safe. Seemed the reasonable thing to do.

Back then lawyers took care of villians. Today reasonableness seems to be a thing of the past and folks that never needed to control a preditor population to survive stand on a podium to protect and re-introduce the wolf and grizzly. They have no plans to control the populations, nor seem to care what effect it has on local stock or the hunting that so many of us live here for. Lawyers advertise on TV to get injury clients looking for big settlements so's a business can just stay working instead of going to court.

I guess we'll have to take a lesson from Alaska. One of their bumper stickers back in the late 70's said eat caraboo, 10,000 wolves can't be wrong. Should be seeing the same thing here pretty soon. Eat elk, 10,000 wolves can't be wrong.

The world seems to be going nuts, $3.15 cents gas, saw steak advertised at the local store for $6.50 a pound. I know the fella's kids down the street are eating more deer than the beef they can't afford and I'm turning a blind eye to it.

Heck I don't know how he can afford to drive the 27 miles to work and back for the $8.50 an hour he's getting. Only thing I can say is I'm glad I'm on the back end of this thing instead of just starting out. I hate to sound like such a pessimist, but I just don't know what to tell the grand kids about the future.

What has set me off about the government/defenders of wildlife (talk about a misnomer) agenda is:

1. Rule number one: don’t introduce no exotic species!!!!!!!
2. We had wolves, were coming back from a hard place but, were coming back.
3. First order of the exotics was to eliminate our natives (another sub-species). I liked those guys, they were my friends; they belonged here!
4. Exotics formed larger packs. Multi-part problem, will return to it.
5. Un-natural federal protection; upsets the whole order of things. We could live with our natives because they weren’t protected; they kept within bounds, and didn’t need no protection. We had them; we saw them; we interacted with them; but, we didn’t have any reason to kill them, and didn’t. And their territory extended into Yellowstone Park.
6. Question has been asked how much meat do these wolves need. Short answer is that 5 pounds per wolf per day is the rule of thumb for maintaining a breeding pair. Longer answer is that these exotics are larger and that 7-10 pounds a day is more realistic as a minimum. More accurate is that, dogs aside, they don’t eat much of what they kill. They kill what they can, what they need is not easy to tell.
7. Idaho Fish & Game claims 1,000 wolves in packs up to 15. That is open to further discussion, but lets go with it. Suggests somewhere over 70 breeding pairs.
8. Ain’t no reason for wolves to form packs over just a few from the stand point of food per wolf. Reasons are territory and pup survival rate; and they like each other’s company. More wolves can control more territory and the food for pups is the regurgitation potential of the pack. Larger the pack, the higher the survival rate of the pups.
9. 70 packs/breeding pairs suggests rather more than 400 pups last spring, with a very high survival rate.
10. Packs of up to 15 are very unstable, members likely to break off to form their own packs (breeding pairs). Suggests that next spring could see the births of up to 1,200 pups, questionable survival rate for 2/3 of them; but good enough.
11. Our wolves had been killed down as far as we could a few generations ago. Ain’t saying they had a terror of man, because they seemed to enjoy interacting with us as much as we did. Just that they had a healthy respect.
12. My area was not a “pack area” but neutral territory, sort of a wolves singles bar. When individuals break off from their pack to find a mate, they must go to non-pack territory or packs will kill them. Was also high in beaver, a favorite food in the fall. That leads to a whole different sort of encounter. Fact is that when we kill something we leave the “choice portions” behind, from both wolves and cougars view of “choice”. They tend to follow us around during hunting season. Figure the gut pile from a 200-300 mule deer from the view of a wolf could only eat 25 pounds if entered it in gut eating contest at the fair.
13. Our wolves were smaller, and ran in smaller packs. They didn’t need as much food, and with their thin population weren’t overly concerned with controlling territory.
14. Our wolves were feeding largely on deer and beaver and rabbit. A new pair would live on beaver through their honeymoon. An established pack of 6 would require 30 pounds of meat per day and be unable to eat more than 150 pounds if you held a gun to them.
15. Packs of 15, of larger wolves concerned with controlling territory, is a whole other story. They need at least 100 pounds of meat a day and can easily eat over 500 pounds. Add federal protection to that, and we have a MAJOR attitude problem. We’re talking a lot of very frustrated big wolves, looking for something to take their woes out on.
16. Talking small packs of small wolves, getting laid regular, versus large packs of large wolves ain’t getting any; sublimate by killing.
17. Lot of talk about reducing elk herds by killing; not near enough of the stalking pressure. We are all responsible outdoorsmen here, with a love of God’s wild places in our hearts. It behooves us to learn as much as we can about the consequences of our actions. STALKING REDUCES NUMBERS! Runs game off from prime territory, burns calories they can’t afford running away, they stop mating, ….
18. Small animals, like beaver, made up about half our wolves diet. Not even a snack for a pack of exotics. Figure 7000 pounds of meat per day. Figure they eat what we don’t, but what we do is not their preferred diet. So figure what, 300-400 pounds edible per elk? Round numbers would be about 6,600 elk per year eaten. At least that many killed for sport, probably double or triple. And I am talking minimum, here (and “official numbers”). Add to that reduced reproduction, increased stress, ….
19. Before too much longer, the exotic wolves will be coming for us. Friends out towards Shawn’s way already have them coming up to their windows, looking in and licking their chops.

Hi Bob,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, computers, what a great machine when they work.

I'm in Coeur d'Alene , about 100 air miles NW of you..And to look at map, theres nothing to keep the wolf from getting this far but time.

Went for a drive yesterday, This pic was taken from the road that is the border for units 4 and 4A
looking NW. I hunt both here and unit 1 north of Clarkfork which is home to the grizz, S.S.S. has been in use here for sometime now..http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/Rowdy_444/100_1828.jpg Danny

Yup there coming your way. Mr. Stanton lives up in than end of the country, but I havn't ask him if he's noticed any up there yet.

Boy the Clark fork, what great fishing. Used to go over to Montana and fish it all the time. Health has kept me away for the last few years.

I hunt deer down here in 8-10-11 and 11A. Hunted Elk the last two years in 10 and didn't have much luck, think I'll stick to deer hunting this fall.

Here's the canyon just above where I live.

Wow, first you guys get the dam and now the wolf, lucky..

I spent some time working in the Clearwater country, two summers and one fall before the dam was built. Worked as a firefighter, at a place called Boehl's Cabin up on the North Fork at the confluence of the Little North Fork. It's under 12ft of water now.What a wonderful place. Worked for a man who now sits on the State Game Commision, Clearwater Div. and lives in Orofino Mr. Alex Irby a long time family friend. If you ever get the chance to, ask him what it was like there in the 1940s -1970s about all the game they used to have there.

Danny

What stunningly beautiful country!

Hi Guys,
Just thought I'd stop into the old shootin' and poachin' forum to see whats going on. Yup: same old folks flappin' their same old uninformed gums. Poachin' threatened species. Quite the bunch of "hunters" you are!

Same species, same subspecies!

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/boreal2/HallClassification1981.jpg


Beware the barbarians at the gate, with their stone axes and odd cries.

Same agitator.

Same agitator.

You guys deserve a little agitation. Half of you promote poaching on a shooting forum. You are poor reps of sportsmen. You give fuel to the anti hunters and radical protectionists. They could probably raise a lot of money by linking this forum on anti-hunting forums. Talk of poaching threatened species gives real hunters a bad name. I don't want to be associated with poachers and will make sure that kind of talk is challenged, wherever I go.

Do yourselves a favor and just follow the third "S".

I think the moderators should lock every poaching thread on this forum and ban anyone who promotes poaching.

Beware the barbarians at the gate, with their stone axes and odd cries.

I don't want to be associated with poachers...

Then why are you here if you have that opinion of all of us?

Bring your evidence of "poaching". Otherwise, you should end the childish hit-and-run postings.

That's enough of that!

boreal - consider yourself banned from the forum. That way, you won't have to "drop in" to see what the same ol' poachers are doing.

You guys deserve a little agitation. Half of you promote poaching on a shooting forum. You are poor reps of sportsmen. You give fuel to the anti hunters and radical protectionists. They could probably raise a lot of money by linking this forum on anti-hunting forums. Talk of poaching threatened species gives real hunters a bad name. I don't want to be associated with poachers and will make sure that kind of talk is challenged, wherever I go.

Do yourselves a favor and just follow the third "S".

I think the moderators should lock every poaching thread on this forum and ban anyone who promotes poaching.

Beware the barbarians at the gate, with their stone axes and odd cries.

The wolf question in Idaho, Montana and Colorado has been a touchy subject for hunters whom live here. Lots of us have strong feelings about the subject. Though lots of folks talk about killing wolves here, very few wolves have been killed by "poachers" or by anyone for than matter including federal wolf control folks.

As far as endangered Wolves in Idaho have doubled and almost tripled over the goal populations since they were re-introduced and have been delisted as endangered.

Idaho is to the point where it now looks like all federal protection will be withdrawn this winter and we will have some kind of season on wolves at least here in the areas I hunt in. I for one will be glad to legally hunt wolves.

I can see that this question of rather or not wolves should be here is important to you, but you might want to tone your reteric down a little and try not treating the forum members like poachers. Everyone has a right to their opinion including you. A sign of maturity is the ability to express that opinion so folks on the other side of it have the ability to understand it.

Most folks that read your post including me figure your just trying to stir poo poo instead of help us understand why you feel the way you do about the western states struggle with the wolf problem.

I keep up with the pro-wolf group in Boise, the Idaho wolf defenders. Here is a pix of a wolf when you go on their website. Sure makes you want to go over and rub his tummy and thow a stick for him to fetch.

As far as endangered Wolves in Idaho have doubled and almost tripled over the goal populations since they were re-introduced and have been delisted as endangered.

Bob,
I'm really sorry to tell you this, but Steve Nadeau himself said that there are 5-6 times the number of wolves in Idaho req'd for delisting. That's a heap of wolves.

Bob,
I'm really sorry to tell you this, but Steve Nadeau himself said that there are 5-6 times the number of wolves in Idaho req'd for delisting. That's a heap of wolves.

I really didn't know the figures, Boreal just griped me off and enough to challenge his endangered BS. I know that Oregon is expecting our wolves to spread into the Wallowas as they work there way across the Snake. I'ts sure gonna put a crimp into some fine elk hunting up in that country.

Last I heard is the feds are gonna relenquish total control back to Idaho this winter. I've got a couple of friends work down at the Lewiston F&G, but havn't talked to them for a couple of months. Talked to someone down there yesterday about a couger in my back yard and totally forgot to ask about the wolf delisting news.

I'll believe it when it happens, when they actually begin issuing tags for wolves, not just some press release that says "Idaho now has control of wolf management..." or some other statement designed for appeasement. I wouldn't mind holding a wolf tag in my pocket when elk hunting, but I'm not going to go into deep depression if I never see one (haven't seen one yet) while holding a tag.

I can think of a few items to tickle that wolf belly with!

Bob,
I was going to ask your source for the de-listing. Ain’t heard even a whisper about that. Futile to argue numbers; ain’t none of us got sufficient data. But de-listing; well, that is FANTASTIC news!
Good picture of a tame wolf but, I got to say, real life; ain’t nothing looks as cute and cuddly as a polar bear. “Looks” being the operative word.

I think some of us, meaning me, have been way too hard on Boreal. She is obviously going through some hard times. Ain’t taking a shot, read the posts; am just trying to show proper respect. I’m wrong, I apologize; but that’s my take.
Had she directed those last posts at me, would be fair and understandable (my posts weren’t exactly paragons, though I don’t hold with killing wolves [me killing wolves]). But they were directed at people talking scenery! A person this unstable needs some understanding. Do agree with the moderators decision, just saying: we should say a prayer for her. She needs them.

Bob,
I was going to ask your source for the de-listing. Ain’t heard even a whisper about that. Futile to argue numbers; ain’t none of us got sufficient data. But de-listing; well, that is FANTASTIC news!
Good picture of a tame wolf but, I got to say, real life; ain’t nothing looks as cute and cuddly as a polar bear. “Looks” being the operative word.

I think some of us, meaning me, have been way too hard on Boreal. She is obviously going through some hard times. Ain’t taking a shot, read the posts; am just trying to show proper respect. I’m wrong, I apologize; but that’s my take.
Had she directed those last posts at me, would be fair and understandable (my posts weren’t exactly paragons, though I don’t hold with killing wolves [me killing wolves]). But they were directed at people talking scenery! A person this unstable needs some understanding. Do agree with the moderators decision, just saying: we should say a prayer for her. She needs them.

It's really hard to believe how some folks view wild animals. Years ago going thru Yellowstone I watched folks hand feeding grizzlys. Just couldn't believe the chances folks take.

The delisting news was in the Boise paper. I picked up the article on the internet news I watch. I havn't talked to a couple of folks I know in the Lewiston Fish and Game office about this yet but will next time I'm down there.

Idaho and Montana have been working to get seperated from Wyoming's negative stance. That's the main reason it's been held up for so long. The feds insisted that all three states have approved plans ready to take effect before any delisting.

Got to agree with you on the prayer. Folks really line up on one side of this wolf issue or the other. I guess it depends upon how you view hunting.

I do believe everyone has a right to their opinion, but expressing it on a pro-hunting forum in the manner it was seemed planned to inflame rather than anything else. Hopefully the answer I gave was more respectful than the post even though it griped me.

One thing for sure the way we hunt elk in this part of the state has changed. They are not hurding up like they used to and unless you happen to run over one in the road you've got to dig them out of some bad places in units 8, 8a, 10 and 10a.

I'm not sure I'm even going go elk hunting and probably will concentrate on a nice whitetail here where I live and spend the winter doing yotes.

I'm really not in it for the meat any more and just the experience getting out is good, plus I've got two grand daughters whom are going to try for their first deer this year.

It would be as big a thrill for me to be there when they shoot their first deer and anything I could do. Besides over the last 45 years I've killed my share.

In our local paper today, buried in the Sports section, was an article that a "local" man, a bowhunter, killed a female wolf, with an arrow! Unfortunately, the paper website does not have this article, so I can't link to it.

Article said that a big herd of elk ran by him, full speed, and there were wolves chasing them, so he stood up yelling, trying to scare them off. Apparently one of the wolves lunged at him so he stuck it. Hope it was a head-on shot.....

Is it possible to make a pdf copy of the article and post here?

Checked with IF&G today, on the delisting thing. Idaho has requested that the feds de-list wolves in Idaho unilaterally; separate from Wyoming. Feds ain’t said no, but they ain’t said yes either. If they do say yes, will be the beginning of a long process; announcements sent to all the wolf lovers to come and give their opinions, and file their lawsuits, hearings, and so forth. So, unless the feds decide to nix this in the bud, ain’t nothing happening anytime soon.

In our local Wednesday paper this week "Feds reject Idaho plan to kill wolves". This was the plan to kill 43 wolves in North Central Idaho (Lolo pack) to help boost lagging elk numbers. Apparently, not enough "studies" have been done.

What part of the management of wolves did Idaho gain? Apparently just the costs, but not any real decision-making.

Well seems they do have a little control, but the anti-wolf folks plan to take any decision to court and make it as expensive as possible for the state to assume any real control. Thats the word I've got from a few friends that work for IDFG.

Here's a couple of articles in the paper a few days ago. I especially like the one about the out of state folks whom bought the cheap idaho property.

Fish and Game to kill more Idaho wolves blamed for livestock deaths

September 25, 2006 5:51 PM
The Associated Press

BOISE, Idaho Three Idaho wolves have been killed by federal hunters in recent weeks and state officials have authorized the destruction of 10 more, due to recent attacks on livestock that left some 63 sheep dead and five injured.

While disease and non-predator-related causes result in more than two-thirds livestock deaths in Idaho, state Department of Fish and Game officials say these wolf control actions are needed to curb future attacks.
At least 43 sheep were killed since August by wolves of the Lick Creek pack, which roam western Idaho near the Snake River.

Elsewhere in the state, other wolves killed 20 more sheep in the last week.

So far this year, federal and state agents have killed 26 wolves in Idaho, and another nine have been legally killed by ranchers whose livestock were threatened or attacked.



Snakepit: E. Idaho home turns out to be reptile refuge

September 26, 2006 8:08 AM
The Associated Press

ST. ANTHONY, Idaho An eastern Idaho couple who jumped at the chance to buy a rural home near Saint Anthony because it was cheap found out why: Hundreds and perhaps thousands of snakes live beneath the house and on its surrounding property.

Lyman Hepworth says when he opened a pumphouse door near the home, snakes fell on his head.

He says he once reached for a light cord _ only to find it was a snake.

State Fish and Game officials say the house is likely a place where the snakes hybernate.

Jeanine Hepworth says after the weather warmed earlier this year, "we walked into the yard and the whole yard moved."

The Hepworths never moved in, saying they couldn't plug up all the snake holes.

They're now looking for another house to buy.
But they've sent a video of the snakes to a T-V program offering home makeovers, hoping to get some help.
(Standard Journal)


Judge bans snowmobiles to protect caribou in northern Idaho

September 26, 2006 8:20 AM
The Associated Press

SPOKANE, Wash. Aiming to help save northern Idaho's rare mountain caribou, a federal judge has declared nearly 470 square miles of national forest land near Priest Lake off-limits to snowmobiles for now.

The herd, thought to consist of three dozen 400-pound animals, is the last in the lower 48 United States.
In a 31-page ruling, U-S District Judge Robert H- Whaley banned snowmobiles throughout a caribou recovery zone in the Idaho Panhandle National Forests.

They'll remain banned until the Forest Service develops a winter recreation strategy taking into account the impact of snowmobiles on the herd.

Whaley says "The court chooses to be overprotective rather than under-protective."
(Spokesman-Review)

26 wolves killed so far, out of an estimated 800. 3% or so...it's a start. A guy I work with spent the day bowhunting yesterday up the East Fk of the Big Wood River. Saw a few elk, but the wolves were howling most all day he said.

I like the snake story. I knew a guy from St Anthony...he called it St Agony!!

Actually with the ones the ranchers killed the total is 35. Last year I put my camper up a few miles out of Pierce at Campbells pond and we could hear the wolves gathering every evening to hunt not more than a mile from our camp. Were wolf tracks around our camp every morning. I didn't see one elk in three weeks and the deer were scarce.

I know there were elk there cause there were fresh tracks all the time, often with wolf tracks over the top of them. I found no kills, but pretty sure that they were moving the heck out of both the deer and elk.

Banning the snowmobiles won't do much good if they don't do something about the Wolves.

I kind of thought our valley might be somewhat insulated from the effects of wolves, but I don't think that anymore. A bowhunter stuck a wolf several weeks ago that came at him. The other wolves followed him all the way back to his pickup. Reports of a wolf hit on highway 20 (just south and West of here, between here and Fairfield) that was reported, and when either the F&G or police investigated, the wolf's mate was guarding the carcass of the dead wolf, growling at them, and the officers ended up shooting the growler. Further reports of wolves chasing horses just West of Hailey.

They continue their march across the country unhindered. It will be telling how our elk hunt goes this fall.

When this whole thing started the state didn't want it to happen. Feds moved in and took over and to heck with the majority of folks desires in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming.

This is going to change the face of hunting in these Western states and is going to spill over to Oregon and Washington.

Even if we get some real control from the feds the pro-wolf folks going to sue every time Fish and Game does any major wolf control.

I know Wyoming was the big hold up wanting to make any wolf off a Federal park open game I do like their moxy even if it did not work.

Eventually that's what is going to have to happen here also. I just doubt that we will see it in my lifetime. I have yet to see a wolf in the woods. I've heard them aplenty and tracks are everywhere in the places I elk hunt.

Reports now are there across the river from where I live and several folks from around town here say they have seen at least one.

Could be when the wolves start eating the pro-wolf folks poodles some of them might change their minds.

Seems the insanity continues. Some joker wrote a letter to the editor in our local paper suggesting that dogs should be banned from the Sawtooth National Recreation Area because dogs might carry viruses that would kill wolves. I guess it's not enough with these people that there are at least 6x the number of wolves in Idaho now to enable delisting.

Sigh.....got to go take my parvo pup for a walk!

Well, this is kind of funny. Some forest service employees got scared of the wolves howling and were evacuated by helicopter!

http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005112785

"By STEVE BENSON
Express Staff Writer


Two U.S. Forest Service employees from Utah were evacuated by helicopter from the Sawtooth Wilderness in late September after encountering a pack of howling wolves about five miles east of Graham in the Johnson Creek drainage.

Johnson Creek is the southwestern portion of the Sawtooths and in the North Fork of the Boise River drainage.

According to Ed Waldapfel, spokesman for the Sawtooth National Forest, the incident occurred Sept. 23 at about 10 a.m. when the employees observed wolves chasing a bull elk across a meadow.

"A little while later they started hearing wolves howling all around them," Waldapfel said. "They called on their radio or satellite phone and asked their supervisor if they could leave the area."

Waldapfel said the employees, whose names he did not know, were from the Rocky Mountain Research Station in Ogden and were conducting forest inventory work in the Sawtooths, began hiking back to their camp a couple miles away. But they claimed the howls persisted, Waldapfel said.

"No matter which way they went they said they could hear the wolves," he added. "They climbed onto a rock outcropping and continued to communicate with their supervisor.

"They admitted they were very scared and wanted to get out of the area."

Shortly thereafter, Waldapfel said the employees' supervisor contacted the Sawtooth National Forest and "asked for a helicopter to come in and retrieve them."

Waldapfel said the wolves never made any aggressive or threatening moves toward the pair.

"It was the sound of the howls that scared them," Waldapfel said, "and the fact (the employees) were from another part of the country. They're not part of our regular workforce and so they hadn't had training for this kind of wildlife encounter."

Steve Nadeau, the state's wolf program supervisor for the Idaho Department of Fish and Game, was shocked that wolf howls would elicit a helicopter evacuation in a wilderness area.

"Holy moly—sounds to me like someone's read too many of Grimm's fairy tales," Nadeau said. "I'm flabbergasted that (the Forest Service) would go to that extent over wolves howling in the woods because wolves howl in the woods all the time. That's how they communicate.

"If they felt threatened I guess the Forest Service reacted appropriately. But I can't imagine why the feeling was any more than anyone else walking in the woods."

Lynne Stone, a Stanley resident who regularly observes wolf behavior in the backcountry, said when wolves howl "the echo can come from 360 degrees."

"Especially up in the mountains, where there's a lot of rock, there are great wolf-howl acoustics," she said. "They probably weren't surrounded by wolves."

Stone, who has observed wolves in the mountains around Stanley on 17 different occasions since the spring, said wolves are very focused during a hunt, and the Forest Service employees were not in any danger.

"When wolves are hunting they are on target. They will be oblivious to you," she said. "I'd be more afraid of running into a moose cow with calves, or a black bear with cubs, than encountering howling wolves.

"These guys were not at risk, and it's too bad they didn't take time to enjoy one of the greatest experiences you could ever have in terms of observing wildlife."

Waldapfel said seeing and hearing wolves in the backcountry in the Sawtooth and Boise national forests is not uncommon.

"But for someone from another state or another area where they don't have wolves, I could see where it could be a very frightening experience," he said.

While there are no documented cases of wolves attacking humans in Idaho, Waldapfel acknowledged "these employees probably were not aware of that fact."

Waldapfel said the Sawtooth National Forest will review its training procedures to better prepare out-of-area Forest Service personnel for what they may encounter while in the field.

"We'll spend some time this fall and winter reviewing our current procedures," he said.

The Utah employees were flown to Ketchum after boarding the helicopter. A Forest Service crew returned to the scene to break down their camp and retrieve their gear Sept. 25."

I see where one of the hunters after the escaped elk shot one inside the fence of the elks owners. More fuel for his fire.

I'm not putting up a hunting camp near Pierce this year. Just deer hunting. We sat every evening and listened to the wolves howl and gather. They would do this for about half an hour and then it was dead quiet. Pretty sure they were hunting quietly then. got to be that anyone not familiar with that sound could become scared. It does sound like it comes from all around.

Had to been a real pucker moment for them, especially if they weren't armed. can't emagine folks going in the woods without at least a 22 pistol in the pocket.

Had to been a real pucker moment for them, especially if they weren't armed. can't emagine folks going in the woods without at least a 22 pistol in the pocket.

I doubt that they were armed, but jeez, the could have sharpened a stick or something. :rolleyes:

We need about 10 more stories like this.

Man, The wife and I were thinking of heading west when the kids get a little older. But seems like the wolves won't leave much to hunt. Coyotes have taken over the woods in SC. A friend went deer hunting last week and killed 3 coyotes instead. One was chasing a small doe. So much for they won't hurt the deer population our F & G folks say. We at least can shoot them on sight year round. Maybe someone should put out some anti freeze for the poor wolves to drink.

Man, The wife and I were thinking of heading west when the kids get a little older. But seems like the wolves won't leave much to hunt. Coyotes have taken over the woods in SC. A friend went deer hunting last week and killed 3 coyotes instead. One was chasing a small doe. So much for they won't hurt the deer population our F & G folks say. We at least can shoot them on sight year round. Maybe someone should put out some anti freeze for the poor wolves to drink.


We've still got some pretty good hunting. Wasn't just the wolves that put our elk herds in a decline. A few really bad winters a few years ago decimated the elk in this part of Idaho. Add to that a growing black bear population that along with the wolves love elk calves adds to the problem.

Folks are still harvesting elk, but not at the percentages of ten years ago. The wolves have changed the face of elk hunting in this country. They keep them on the move much more and where you used to see herds of 10, 15 and 20 you now see singles and they are brushed up much tighter. You've got to get into some nasty country and dig them out rather than have a herd pass you by like the old times.

As for deer hunting it still is great. Were deer loaded so to speak.

One thing for sure is lots of hunters blame the wolves for all the elk loss problems and it just isn't so. Certianly there is a problem with to many wolves, but hopefully in the near future we will be able to do something about that.

Lots of folks pushing for total control and shooting seasons and limits on the wolves. We've lots of folks from our Governor on down to most of the fish and game folks in favor of drastically reducing our wolf population.

This state is still one of the pristine places to live and hunt.

In our local paper today, buried in the Sports section, was an article that a "local" man, a bowhunter, killed a female wolf, with an arrow! Unfortunately, the paper website does not have this article, so I can't link to it.

Article said that a big herd of elk ran by him, full speed, and there were wolves chasing them, so he stood up yelling, trying to scare them off. Apparently one of the wolves lunged at him so he stuck it. Hope it was a head-on shot.....

Is it possible to make a pdf copy of the article and post here?

I talked this evening to the guy that stuck the wolf. He said that after he reported it, he had a meeting with the Feds, told his story, offered to take them up to the scene, etc. They weren't interested (or concerned I guess) and didn't give him any trouble. He could have stuck another at 20 yards and didn't. Glad there wasn't a lot of harrassment of him over it.

They fell for it in OR too. Reintroducing to NE OR. Just wait til it all goes up in smoke on them. At least in the PRK they realized fairly quick what happens when you don't control your bear and cougar populations. They got increased human predations real quick. OR officials took note also. Hunting those species will be real interesting for a couple years. I grin when I think about those animal "rights" hand-wringers fretting over this. :p

Shawn,
My understanding was that he had literally stabbed, not shot, the wolf. Would be worried by the other side knowing when to cut their losses in a no win situation. What exactly is the true story?

markw76,
Never met an animal rights activist could justify the life a feed lot steer versus a free and wild animal, from the animal’s perspective. Then it hit. The feed lot steer has all it’s needs and decisions met and made by others: perfect animal socialism. Now I understand.

Marshall,
Didn’t mean to get political here, just trying to understand.

I could be wrong but that comment was about hunting and seemed to follow the thread to a tee so I think you are OK. sometimes I would like to be a feed lot steer but the wild and free part is still there so I fight to remain at least a cantankerous old f$#t.

Shawn,
My understanding was that he had literally stabbed, not shot, the wolf. Would be worried by the other side knowing when to cut their losses in a no win situation. What exactly is the true story?

I didn't get that impression in talking with him...actually drew the bow I think, but could be wrong as I didn't ask that specific question.

Many stories circulating about a bunch of hybrids in our area now. More than just stories I guess as they confirmed two of the "wolves" killed between Hailey and Fairfield on Hwy 20 were hybrids. At least two separate reports of hybrids chasing sheep and horses in the area. Have to wonder if people dumping hybrids was a deliberate act to muddy up the growing controversy.

Looks as if Idaho is getting closer to REALLY being in control of wolf management. This paper is quite liberal, and todays paper had a larger more neutral article on this issue, but in summary, Idaho should have true control by 2008, with tags issued for wolves. http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005113563

This article, in the link, is more of a commentary by one of the more liberal writers of the paper. The "60 day public commentary" is a bit worrisome, especially since we're looking at 2008, 8 years after recovery goals were achieved. But we're getting closer.

Looks as if Idaho is getting closer to REALLY being in control of wolf management. This paper is quite liberal, and todays paper had a larger more neutral article on this issue, but in summary, Idaho should have true control by 2008, with tags issued for wolves. http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005113563

This article, in the link, is more of a commentary by one of the more liberal writers of the paper. The "60 day public commentary" is a bit worrisome, especially since we're looking at 2008, 8 years after recovery goals were achieved. But we're getting closer.

Meanwhile Oregon is importing the **** things. Maybe some other species is in need of a predator.

Meanwhile Oregon is importing the **** things. Maybe some other species is in need of a predator.

Hey, package up some wolf "nature hikes", smear some bacon grease on the backpacks, and we could be on to something. :D

Shawn Crea

There are a ton of wolves up around bear valley. I saw 4 a while back. You can hear them on a regular basis in most areas around Stanley.

I have also called them in using a "power howler" meant for coyotes in an area in Garden Valley. I have never seen so few elk in Idaho ever.

Shawn Crea

There are a ton of wolves up around bear valley. I saw 4 a while back. You can hear them on a regular basis in most areas around Stanley.

I have also called them in using a "power howler" meant for coyotes in an area in Garden Valley. I have never seen so few elk in Idaho ever.

I've heard this but I don't spend much time up in that area. I do know that the elk numbers at one of the winter feeding stations in the Big Smoky's north of Fairfield have declined dramatically. F&G counted 2 kills attributed to wolves in a short section of road. We saw fewer elk out hunting this past fall.

Edit: Oops, that's 20 kills, not 2.

In response to faucettb's news paper clippings; that is just the tip of the berg. I believe that the entire area of the Priest Lake and Divide Trail were determined to become roadless.
Then it was made into a grizzley habitat study area limiting further access. Then 35 caribou were re-introduced into the study area that migrated to Canada and never returned! (wonder why..).
That was the reasoning leading up to the banning of snowmobiles. In the meantime, the cougars have gone unchecked in both Washington and Idaho, killing the deer and I am sure a few caribou.
In the 70's the preservationists claimed their were only 6 grizzleys left in the lower 48 states. I had seen two in the Priest Lake country and one was shot by mistake by a guided hunter. Yes, they were prosecuted!
Living in Alaska, we are faced with the same well heeled emotional organizations. They claim that civilization is pushing the wolf out. NOT by my personal observation. There are populated areas on both side of the river(wolf freeway in winter), where frequently signs appear after long weekends, looking for fido. The local wolf pack has 18 animals I have seen only once in a full line. The rest of the time no more than two. They stay strung out when hunting, maybe 50yds apart, and move as if all were tied to the same string. If you see one on the road, chances are, more are closer than you think.
The big controversy is aerial wolf hunting, but as marksmen I ask how many you think you might actually hit, IF you found them, from the door of a Super Cub. To my way of thinking, not nearly enough! At least you can still ambush them in the winter with a varmint rifle.
We have these problems in a state where the constitution REQUIRES that management of fish and game populations for consumptive use be maintained, to include predator control.
I can't begin to estimate how much food this pack consumed, but @ 150yds I would say none were under 125lbs in size, with many larger, in several color phases from all black, blk/wht, white, grey. It truely was a spectacular sight to see. Their only competitors for the fresh born moose calves are the grizzleys. But that is another story...
I wish you all the best of luck getting back control of your predators. I want to move back to Idaho someday...

Boy T-Bird I remember when I spent five years up there in the mid to late 70's. It was a big controversy then over the wolf population. One bumper sticker I remember seeing a lot was "Eat Caribou, 10,000 Wolves can't be wrong".

I know for sure it's changed our elk hunting here. No more herds. If you see two togather it's something. I didn't even put up an elk camp last year, the first time in the last ten years.

I've heard that our Fish and Game is going to open some kind of limited season next month. I'm going to get my new license on the 1st. Hope it's a no tag situation. Guess I better check with my source in the F&G after Christmas.

Boy T-Bird I remember when I spent five years up there in the mid to late 70's. It was a big controversy then over the wolf population. One bumper sticker I remember seeing a lot was "Eat Caribou, 10,000 Wolves can't be wrong".

I know for sure it's changed our elk hunting here. No more herds. If you see two togather it's something. I didn't even put up an elk camp last year, the first time in the last ten years.

I've heard that our Fish and Game is going to open some kind of limited season next month. I'm going to get my new license on the 1st. Hope it's a no tag situation. Guess I better check with my source in the F&G after Christmas.

That bumper sticker is still relavent, for sure. I have several ADF&G folks living around here, who are decidedly pro wolf by political affiliation. So sad...

I met an old timer in the 70's @ Marshall Lake, name of John Dean, who had written books on trails that could be walked in a day. At the time he was using a cane, and the purpose was to identify types of trails seniors could traverse, with varying skill levels and physical handicaps. He told me of a heard of elk that wintered in the upper Priest Lake area, along the divide trail. He lobbied to get the old forest service trail cleared again, first time since WWII, which I think was done in the 80's. The herd was healthy at the time.

As an aside, old John Dean was a character. An old barnstorming pilot that taught Jimmy Doolittle to fly!. He was always upset with the government cause they would not give him a pilots liscense after they became a requirement. LOL

I have yet to hunt wolves in the winter from a snow machine, but one of my co-workers did it every year in the area where he hunted caribou. The Denali Hwy is not cleard for car travel in the winter, so makes a fair place to jump the buggars. Many years he comes back empty handed, relating just how smart these critters can be.

I know this is an old thread but I came across an ad for this website today and decided to take a look.

http://action.defenders.org/site/PageServer?pagename=savewolves_homepage

What do you guys think?

I live up here in N.E. Montana. We do not have many wolves up in these parts. There seem to be a few that pass through now and then and eventually wander onto the wrong property. I am thankful that the wolves arent here yet. The elk and deer have a hard enough time surviving the winters let alone a very keen predator.

If nobody has welcome to the forum BigSky. When I was little my dad lived and worked for a while at Swan lake up by Flathead. It's been a long time since I've been back there.

One thing for sure is our wolf re-introduction seems to have been more than successful. At least the pro-wolf folks along with the wolves seem happy about it.

I'd sure like to send some of our excess over there to you. Seems a shame just to spoil the elk hunting in just one state.

I know one thing as much as I'm in the woods I've never seen a wolf. I've heard them plenty and seen tracks a bunch, but I think that it's going to be much harder to simply let tags out and expect hunters to bring the pack sizes down to a reasonable