How about some hints/ ideas on hand loading for accuracy. Always willing to learn.

Go to the "Archives" icon at bottom of this page. Click it on and do a search in the "Handloading/Procedures" section. You'll find all kinds of advice on the best reloading methods.

What's your reloading experience level?

Loading for accuracy... where to begin? There are scads of tips which could come into play, but if I give one piece of advice on the subjest it's always this:

Best accuracy rarely comes from maximum loads. Note, I said "rarely", and not "never", because once in a while a gun will thrive on being loaded to the gills. But in probably 90% of the guns I've loaded for, best accuracy comes with loads around 85-95% of max, regardless of the bullet being used. This seems to hold true for handguns and long guns.

Loading for accuracy means making everything as nearly consistant as possible and carefully developing/testing your loads. That means much more than simply weighting each powder charge but it's too broad a topic for short answers here.

Learning to use the "ladder" method of developing your load is probably the most helpful thing you can do as a start.

"Best" accuracy comes where you find it, many rifles do shoot their best with hot loads. YOU must find the sweet spot for your own rifles, not for the "average" rifle. No formula or secret to it, just takes time and effort.

In setting up reloading dies, do NOT lock the dies down in the press. Allow them to "float" in the press and this will help allow for more accurate loads. If you need me to explain this then just ask....

A

I've found using Lee's collet neck sizing dies produces consistently more accurate ammo for me.

To get bench rest performance from accurate ammunition you need not only a very accurate gun, but shoot from a quality bench rest with quality rifle holding equipment.

Having a scope that will give good magnification at the ranges you shoot also helps.

Keep in mind that achieving half inch groups off a bench rest with a high power rifle is totally different than shooting a deer at a couple hundred yards.

It's nice to have an accurate game rifle, but you certainly don't need bench gun accuracy to hunt deer.

In setting up reloading dies, do NOT lock the dies down in the press. Allow them to "float" in the press and this will help allow for more accurate loads. If you need me to explain this then just ask....

A


Please explain for sure. All the Lee instructions believe its better to take any play out of the press so I would have thought locking it would help.

Best accuracy rarely comes from maximum loads. Note, I said "rarely", and not "never", because once in a while a gun will thrive on being loaded to the gills. But in probably 90% of the guns I've loaded for, best accuracy comes with loads around 85-95% of max, regardless of the bullet being used. This seems to hold true for handguns and long guns.

I agree with you there! In probably hundreds of loads I've tested in my rifles, I can probably count on one hand the number of max loads that gave me the best accuracy for a certain bullet/powder.

Brad Y,

the problem with locking dies down tight in the press is that the large 7/8-14 threads will sometimes cock the die off center, even though it may be but a few thousandths of an inch...

In setting up a die to "float" I use the RCBS black lock rings that use a brass screw into the side of them to lock the ring to the die. I like this ring because I can easily see and use that set screw as an alignment guide when setting the die up to float...

Screw the die into the press but do NOT screw it in all the way because you do not want it contacting the shell holder. At the very least, place a .010 to .020 feeler gauge between the bottom of the die and the shell holder. Make a scribe mark on the press to where you can see that it will align with brass screw in the lock ring. Once set, when you reinstall the die in the press, screw it all the down and then back it up to where both the brass screw and the scribe mark on the press align with each other...

This type set up can be done with either a full length size die or neck die. I also use this same set up with the bullet seater but you need to keep a close eye on the index marks or else there will be to much variance in bullet seating depth...

I have been setting up dies this way for over 30 years and have proven many times over that setting dies up to "float" in a reloading press does increase the accuracy of loaded ammunition...

Any other questions, just ask!

A

I also use the Lee collet dies and they are awesome. All the accuracy you could ever use short of world class bench rest. Possibly even OK for that. I don't shoot the same class rigs as Assassin, but in the ones I do have, I can say the Lee collet has done better than any other. I have tried them. However I DO NOT dispute his techniques, nor do I even remotely doubt them. I just don't think Mr. Average can shoot well enough or would notice the difference with normal sporting rigs. My opinion is that it totally depends on what your looking to do. There are many different levels of performance.

jsr76,

your last statement is VERY TRUE!!!

When using the LEE Collet Dies, just me personally I also set them up to "float" as well....

A

in my little world, i could only start getting less than 1/2 MOA after i started neck turning the cases. there are lots of little steps like de-burring flash holes and weighing/sorting the cases, but neck turning removed a barrier for me. other people have known this for years, but i have only recently started playing with precision beyond what is needed for hunting.

monty

I have not yet neck turned. I have wanted to but haven't invested in the tools. I understand you don't want to go too thin. My best groups have been weight sorted. I always neck size and use the Lee trimming system every time, even if it doesn't take anything off. By the way, when you trim and don't take anything off, the collet dies are working perfectly. Those are well formed, well prepped cases. My opinion is that neck turning may beneficial to anyone, but most beneficial to those who have super tight chamber and throated comp. guns.

that was my hold-up. the cost of all the stuff. the pros often have two neck turners set up, one for the first rough cut, and the other for final cut. then the expander that sized the neck to the fit on the manderal, micrometer to measure neck thickness, ect...
from my understanding, neck turning is not dependant on chamber size, it is for a more consistant release of the bullet from the case.
it helped me, tho. even with the factory rifles.

monty

Here's what I do; just to prove I'm a dork.

Use new brass, neck size it, check trim length, trim to shortest case in the batch. Inside and outside neck chamfer, then use Sinclair primer pocket uniformer in a hand drill to re-cut depth of pockets and square them up. Next, use the flash hole uniformer from the neck side and deburr the flash hole (except 6mm PPC where I ream the flash holes with a .0624" straight flute reamer). Next turn the necks to the thinnest wall thickness after measuring with a tubing micrometer, for example if a case measures a neck thickness of .015" at twelve O'clock and .013" at 6 O'clock then I turn the entire batch to .013". Except of course in rifles set with a specific neck diameter, which may require removing more to gain the desired clearance. Then segregate by weight if the average is beyond my tolerance level. All this is done at the kitchen table while watching Trains and Locomotives on the RFD Channel, or reruns of CSI.

Or I purchase Lapua or Nosler brass and skip all but the neck turning for custom dimensioned chamber necks.

Use hand primer seating tool and match primers, or select primers that have proven accuracy advantage in given load. I purchase every primer brand of the sizes I use in 5,000 lots. Priming is best done watching PGA competition on the Golf Channel.

I use Redding or Forester match dies, shoulder bump full length sizing bushings, or with neck size bushings, or real old RCBS sets that were made when Waldo was a pup and dies were dies. Do not use the expander button but size .003" smaller than the fired case dimension. I do not crimp.

Eye (I'm boring myself with all the personal references) then work up a load with likely powders matched to bullet design and weight. My preference is to use an old balance beam scale that has proven calibration and weigh each load to the zero point with a rotary measure and powder trickler.

Bullets are seated just shy of the lands and cartridges are checked for concentricity. 001" to .0015" is max run out I'll use. Then it's to the range or field and set the ground squirrels a tremble in their dens. Sometimes I think I should'a taken up golf!

Oh crud, I forgot about the moly! I impact plate all my bullets with moly using the Lyman kit. It does make a difference in extending barrel cleaning cycles.

No, it doesn't really deal with chamber size, but in super tight bench guns you neck turn to match your barrel. Like I said before, it could help anyone out, I don't dispute that. But bench guns and their reloading use it a huge amount. They have tolerances so tight that they have to match up things most people don't even consider for even their top-notch handloads. just a different performance level. They have to build shells that wouldn't, perhaps, even chamber in another rifle of identical chambering. All in the name of accuracy. But they would scare you with what can be done. However, in the name of sport shooting, I can't recommend a better die than a Lee. And if you shoot bolt action or single shot, I can't recommend any better than the Lee Collet Die.

No, it doesn't really deal with chamber size, but in super tight bench guns you neck turn to match your barrel. Like I said before, it could help anyone out, I don't dispute that. But bench guns and their reloading use it a huge amount. They have tolerances so tight that they have to match up things most people don't even consider for even their top-notch handloads. just a different performance level. They have to build shells that wouldn't, perhaps, even chamber in another rifle of identical chambering. All in the name of accuracy. But they would scare you with what can be done. However, in the name of sport shooting, I can't recommend a better die than a Lee. And if you shoot bolt action or single shot, I can't recommend any better than the Lee Collet Die.

Yeah, Lee dies are really good. I use them for normal hunting loads, I still can't figure how they make them so accurately for the money. Maybe it's the Keebler Elves? But that Factory Crimp die is the best for ammo that needs a crimp, like the .348 Winchester in a tubular magazine.

Many reloading manuals have good sections on accuracy loading. The key is always going to be uniformity. Start with a load your rifle seems to like and then experiment with it. You can add steps like neck turning as you go or obtain the equipment. You can also play with things such as seating depth that don't require any special tools.

Maybe the best advice that I can add to what has already been offered: Get organized and keep meticulous records. I put basic details on the stickers in the ammo boxes but they reference back to a log sheet with every detail that went into that load.

Lumberjak definantly hit the nail on the head - THE KEY TO TOP ACCURACY IS - UNIFORMITY!!!

A

Very interesting Assassin, Im going to try it for sure. Im not the type of person that has the exact measures for things like floating dies on hand, but I might try backing them off the shell holder 1/8th of a turn. I do believe that my past reloads have been off centre with a slight bulge on one side where the bullet is seated, and the other side smooth. I can understand a slightly off centre die would have this effect.

Thanks for the valuable tip.

For the purpose of the thread im going to state what i did when i started then the stages to present.....

Originally, it was full length sizing all the time, not cleaning the primer pocket, re priming then loading with powder straight out of the powder thrower and not checking the loads.

I then started paying attention to the load weights, cleaning the primer pocket, trimming cases and have recently bought the lee collet dies. I will be getting a primer pocket reamer next week along with the flashole deburr tool. I also have decided to weigh each powder charge and try to equalise them as much as possible. Ive also changed to a bench rest primer. As stated before I will be trying a batch with the floated dies as well.

I think just listening to all the above tips will give you some kind of idea what works. Saying that I will give the tip of start reloading now and work out roughly what powder and primers show promise with the projectiles you use. Then try to uniform how you deliver those projectiles.

Good luck

That slight bulge in the case neck can be a sign of neck thickness irregularity, so that when you size, expand and seat a bullet the thick part of the neck makes a bulge.

Then there is the chance that the bullet wasn't guided into the case straight at the beginning, which cocks the bullet slightly. Those sliding bushing seater dies are designed to prevent that. So is a proper mouth chamfer.

Nothing says that the new case has a neck perfectly concentric to the case body, it can be eccentric by a few thousandths, and reloading dies generally won't correct the deficiency.

Another thing is that cases fired in a factory chamber are likely to be eccentric, and lobed axially, even have a case head that is not perpendicular to the chamber axis because of chamber reamer run-out, chatter and wobble. Most factory chambers are not even in perfect alignment with the bore throughout their length. Then there is the locking lug to receiver fit which is close, but can cause the case head to tilt toward the loser of the lugs, as can a bolt face not perpendicular to the bore. When you fire a cartridge all these errors add up and result in a completely cockeyed case. Your die set is probably closer to perfect than the case, even locked down in the press, so that the case is causing most of the problem. Look at the fired primer dent, it sometimes tells a story: In the attachment (click on it for a larger view) you can see a .220 Swift case fired in a factory chamber and a .22-250 fired in a Remington 40-XB that was trued. Which chamber was better aligned with the axis of the bolt?

Point is: Don't blame the dies and press, there are so many factors to deal with in perfecting loads it almost becomes alchemy.

The only way to eliminate as many of these variables is to have an action with close tolerances (custom actions or blueprinted factory) custom barreled by a top-flight gunsmith, with a set of dies made to the chamber. Fire forming in such a rifle will straighten and iron out a lot of case defects. Benchrester's use precision dies and an arbor press to eliminate the press-die alignment errors, but you need a precision rifle to see the difference. Or you can fiddle with the top-tier dies and materials with good results.

In setting up reloading dies, do NOT lock the dies down in the press. Allow them to "float" in the press and this will help allow for more accurate loads. If you need me to explain this then just ask....

A

what do you mean by floating the dies. if that is what i think it is wont it allow the seating of the bullet to be different every time.

barnhill06,

back up to post #10 on the first page where I tried to explain what I meant by allowing the dies to "float" and see if I explained it well enough....

A

That's the beauty of the Forster Co-Ax press. It is configured to allow you to "float" the dies or lock them in place - your choice.

I like to float mine as this asssures case and bullet alignment with the shell holder. Also, with the Co-Ax there's no finicky set point for the die/shell holder. You press the cartridge into the die until it bottoms out on the shell holder, not matter how high or low you screw the die into the lock ring. 'Course, you've got to allow for clearance of the yoke type handle.

When I set up my dies during a loading session I will run the case into the die before I tighten the die in the press. I lock them down more often than not. I have floated the sizing die (neck and FL), the expander die (for straight wall cases), and the crimp die, but never the seat die.

I don't float the dies, but I check that the cases are being sized concentrically, and the bullets being seated straight, with the RCBS Case Master.

That tool has saved me a lot of grief and rescued one set of dies, and brought top accuracy from some other sets.

I have a machine washer that I use for die set-up. It measures 0.150 inch thick. I place it on the shellholder and screw the die down to touch it. Lower the ram a little and screw the die down about 1/8 turn. Raise the ram and set the lock ring. I can see the die"plumb up" as the press cams over center. Is much like setting up for full lengh sizing. Most cartridges that I load for end up with about 1/2 of the neck getting sized with this method.

Seater die gets similar treatment. With a case in the shellholder, I screw the die down until I feel contact with the crimp shoulder and stop. Remove the case and put the washer on the shellholder and raise the ram. I put preasure on the ram as I set the lock ring. DO NOT TRY TO CAM THE PRESS OVER CENTER for this operation. I am just wanting to see the seater die "plumb up" in the press threads. Seat and crimp(if needed) in seperate operations.

I don't shoot competitive. All I own are hunting rifles. No problem getting sub MOA groups with this technique.

The "floating die" idea never occured to me before. I see merit there too! I'm gonna try that.

Cheezywan