I have made up some cartridges for my hornet with the hornady 45gr .224 bee projectiles on the local gunshops advice.

So I loaded up with powder and I notice that I can load a heavier powder charge with these projectiles that with the sierra 45gr hornet projectiles.

Why would this be?

I have done a couple of things differently.

I have used a collet die to necksize, cleaned the brass, uniformed the primer pocket, deburred the flash hole and have also cleaned the bore out with sweets to remove any copper fouling.

The new bee projectiles are seated in further so I thought pressure would have increased with them. I used to only get 10.9gr in the case before with the sierras and now I have got up to 11.1gr with the hornady's. Have loaded up a couple more at 11.1, 11.2 and 11.3gr to keep an eye of any pressure build up.

The main thing is I wouldnt have expexcted to load more powder with these.

What was the determining factor?

I also purchased the factory crimp die to add a light crimp for when I go hunting with them. The accuracy seems very good so far.

One of the basic principles of scientific investigation is the independence of variables. The Murphy's Law version for human variables states: "Where more than one mathematician is involved in an erroneous calculation, the fault will never be placed." Same applies to physical variables. The only way to determine which one is to blame is to change them one at a time.

In this case, the change in bullet (bearing surface or pressure ring diameter difference) or the neck sizing method (difference in neck tension) or the crimp all have the potential to change the start pressure. This affects peak pressure by changing how quickly the powder gets burning. Altering primer pockets and flashholes improves ignition consistency, but may also alter firing pin impact and ignition timing just enough to let the powder move forward in the case on firing (assuming there is some remaining air space). That reduces pressure. If you had a lot of copper in the throat of the barrel before you cleaned it that will change the peak pressure, too.

All the above assumes similar shooting conditions and gun and cartridge handling. In particular, ambient temperature and barrel cooling time between rounds can affect pressure more with some powders than others. If the powder charge leaves air space in the case, you may notice a significant difference between tipping a muzzle down or up before firing (powder forward or back over the flashhole) or in whether the cartridges are nose up or down just before you put them in the chamber? With 46.5 grains of IMR 4895 filling the case only about 84%, the old M72 .30-06 military match ammunition would shift MV 80 fps and the primers would go from fairly flat to fairly well rounded just due to tipping the muzzle up or down before coming level to fire. It was completely repeatable. Still shot pretty well.

As I've preached hundreds of times: bullets are NOT the same, even if they weigh the same. Bearing length, jacket hardness and thickness, actual diameter and several more factor can (and DO) affect the pressure reached. It can go either way, causing some hot loads to be dangerous with a bullet swap, or -as in this instance- dropping pressures.

Let this be an object lesson to those who believe one can substitute any bullet of the same weight in a given load. NOT so.

Brad, in this particular instance, I'd guess that the new bullet jacket is thicker or harder. It doesn't obturate (bump up) to fill the rifling as tight as your older and softer Hornet bullets. Therefore, lower pressures are developed. They might also be slightly smaller in diameter or have a shorter bearing length, but my first bet would be on jacket thickness, as the Bee shoots at a bit higher speed than the Hornet, and the bullet designers would have made the jacket a wee bit stouter to compensate.

The biggest variable with the .22hornet is simply whose data you ae reading. Some keep pressures under 40K for all listed loads....others limit out at 42,500...others go to 45K..others don't presure test at all.

That's been a problem for as long as there have been hornet shooters. Were so many guns made over the years, many made with converted .22LR barrels, less strong actions, and with rather loose chambering.

You'd think most of those old Hornets aren't being shot...most aren't, but I've seen enough of the oldies and home-built Hornets out on the range to know a lot more of them survived and are still being shot than expected.

Most defineatly a caliber in which starting low and working up (in some cases, may have to work down)is important.

Couple of things -

The Hornady .218 Bee 45 gr bullet is a flat nose with short ogive, a long bearing surface and lots of bullet hanging below the cannelure. The Sierra 45 gr bullet is a typical pointed soft point with a flat base. The seating depth is different with each bullet, hence the Sierra gives you just a bit more case capacity than the Hornady.

Second, you mentioned neck sizing. Would this indicate the first loading with the Bee bullets were new, unfired cases and now you are neck sizing once-fired cases? Fireforming to your specific chamber and neck sizing only will usually result in a bit more space in the case.

Kdub,

All my cases are previously fired numerous times and necksized and all the treatment I stated in the first post etc.

I can understand differences in the procedures used to load the cartridges and the barrel cleaning, but did not realise just how bullet design and manufacturing came into it.

Makes perfect sense now.

I have done the three more cartridges as stated and will fire them tomorrow night after work. If there is no pressure signs, I will make two more (11.4gr and 11.5gr and see how they go) 11.5gr is the max listed load with that powder for that weight bullet so I wont be exceeding that. Its a compressed load anyway and its getting harder to seat the bullets in. So far I havent used the crimp on them as they seat snug. Once I find the pressure limit, I will go into testing groups to see which powder charge shoots most consistently, then add the crimp into the situation to see just what happens.

You guys are really helping me understand this calibre as well as teaching me to reload to best effect. Most sincere thanks.

Brad

Brad,

Perhaps you could share a few more details? You haven't mentioned which powder or gun you are using? As Ribbonstione said, depending on your action, the load pressure limits may vary from what you have in your book? Between the lot of us, we have quite a library of loading manuals and information we can cross-check to see if one of them lists loads developed your particular gun? Some here may even have run the very same bullets and rifle configuration you have and be able to share their results.

If what limits your load work-ups now is powder compression, we may be able to suggest different powders? With the additional details of your gun's barrel length and a known sweet spot load, including its bullet and COL and the water weight capacity of your fired cases, I can run a computer table to suggest other powders and loads to try working up to in the future. One nice thing about little cases is you can sometimes "borrow" a 35mm plastic film can full of powder from another reloader to try out; especially if they want to try a similar quantity of the powder you have.

Thanks mate

Well as per my other numerous( :o ) posts about hornets, its a 77/22 in the blued barrel not the heavy stainless one. Load is so far 11.1gr of AR2207 with a 45gr hornady .224 bee projectile. My remington brass weighs between 44.9 and 45.4gr- dont know the water weight. BR4 primer. I still have 0.4gr to go unitl I reach max in the published load data but have no pressure signs so far.

I use lee collet dies, dead length bullet seater with no crimp as the bullet seems to fit firmly as is. I do have a factory crimp die as well and will test it further once I find a preferred load.

Basically and I have stated this is other posts, I dont have access to other powders. The ADI range is what Im stuck with. Its okay by me as these bee loads seem to be going well, it just interested me that I could fit more powder in the case than before,without showing the signs of excessive pressure.

If you could generate a computer list of others it would be great, but again im limited to powder so i could only change the projectile and primer.

Brad, check here at Hodgdon for Hornet reloading data.
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Just fill the fields and hit Get Data. Anytime you switch components you should rework your loads from the bottom up. You can never really know just how swapping primers or cases or bullets will affect the rest of the load. Hey, at least the pressure on this one went down and not UP right? Lucky, but I'd rather be good and then lucky.
My first thought about the Hornady bullet would have been bearing shank length. Some of the Hornady bullets vary from one place to another along their shank, fore and aft of cannelure for example, and without actually seeing the bullet in question, that would be my guess, and only a guess.

I've got a Hornet on a Ruger #3 and they are a lot of fun but mine is picky about brass. It likes the Remington brass but dislikes feeding the WW brass because the rim is a hair too thick. Other than that it's fun to shoot and an accurate cartridge that I really need to spend more time with.

Brad,

I can run a list based on the default case, but in QuickLOAD that default is on the small side (in the Hornet, default is 14.5 grains water capacity), so it will tend to err on the low side in suggested loads. In that smaller case, it says 9.3 grains of AR 2205 (92% filled case capacity) will match your peak pressure from 11.1 grains of AR 2207 (107% case capacity), but you lose about 100 fps. The most promising powder appears to be Vihtavuori N110. I don’t know if you can get that Finnish powder where you are or not? Without compressing, 8.8 grains (98% case capacity) matches pressures and velocities of the 2207 load and gives you a little bit of room to try a slightly greater charge. At 8.9 grains, it has only slightly higher pressure, but exceeds the velocity of the 2207 load.

If you want something more exact, weigh an empty case fireformed in your gun (but not decapped or sized), then weigh it again filled with water just level with the case mouth (no meniscus above or below level). The difference in the two weights is the case water weight capacity (a standard measure), and by conversion of grains to grams, represents the actual powder space available in cc’s. That volume is what determines actual pressure and barrel times for different powder charges in your particular gun. The measurement compensates for case brand and your chamber dimensions at the same time. The QuickLOAD program subtracts the bullet seating depth from that volume automatically. Especially in these little guys, a little space can make quite a difference.

The barrel length determines how long the bullet takes to get out of the muzzle. If you have an established sweet spot load (and you may not yet have one), it is leaving the muzzle at just the right phase of the barrel vibrations for best accuracy. Other loads chosen to match that same barrel time will then be at the same sweet spot. The program calculates that, within the limitation that its powder data are all from a single lot sample of each, meaning suggested loads still need to be worked up to. Barrel length, in this case, is the same as the U.S. legal measurement: the distance from the breechface of the closed action to the muzzle crown.

Thats great thanks mate, how did WW 296 perform?

I knew already the 2207 is better with the heavier hornet projectiles. 11.1gr is the highest ive gone so far without seeing pressure signs, obviouylsy i can go more until I find that limit, then more than likely my best accuracy will come when backed off. The 45gr bee projectile is seated right on the cannelure, where I had the loads with the 35gr v max with 2205 and the 45gr sierra with 2205 seated a fair way out toards the lands. I used to use 9.3gr of 2205 with the 45gr sierra and it was seated out a bit. Wasnt a bad load, but wasnt great and the velocity was poor so I went to the slower powder. Velocity has improved since (and the muzzle flash has too)