So what advantage does a .30-06 ackly improved give you over a standard .30-06? Also If I was to convert a .30-06 to and Ackly improved I am under the impression that you basicly fireform cases to the chamber. I am also under the impression that it is safe to use factory loaded ammo to do this. Is this correct? Now if I convert a .30-06 to an ackly improved and lets say I forget my ammo and I purchase factory .30-06 how bad is accuracy effected. Sory for so many questions I am intrested in a whild cat cartrage and I think that going with an imporved round would be the best way to start.

My understanding is that standard cartridges can be fired in improved chambers with little loss of velocity or accuracy.

I read in an older reloading manual that 30-06 AI showed no performance gains despite burning more powder. But they also mentioned it could have been that particular rifle. Seems every weapon is a rule to itself.

Scroll down this page to the "Similar Threads" section and click on the "What about 30-06 vs 30-06 Improved" thread. You'll find the answer to your question.

One of the biggest advantages in going to the 30-06 Ackley Improved can be easily seen when chambered in an H&R break open single shot. By going to a case with minimal body taper, it has proven to transmit less backthrust against the standing breech and in laymens terms, that means it batter the frame nearly as hard each time a round is fired in it. In the casae of the H&R, that means you can get more rounds fired down the bore before things start to loosen up. This is the biggest reason why I see so many of these guns in for rechambering to the IMPROVED case designs, because they are easier on the frames...

In a good bolt gun though, the "improved" performance is negligable....

A

So basicly converting to a .30-06 to an AI cartrage would offer little to no advantage other than burning slightly more powder. It could make it harder to sell the rifle if I wanted to. So more or less in the grand sceme of things it would just be a something I want to do if I converted one. At least that is what I am getting.

Zapzoo,
You cannot trust to re-sale value on any wildcat cartridge or custom firearm. Don’t look at re-sale value if you are looking at wildcats – look for “Improvement” and uniqueness.
Assassin points out the real advantage of the improved case shape. The ability of the rifle to handle “higher pressures” with less stress on the action. As A points out the H&R rifle chambered for the .30-06AI cartridge works under less strain and lasts longer, whether loaded to standard .30-06 pressures or increased pressures as allowed by the increased case capacity.
In this thread started by Kent on Ackley Improved cartridges I quoted P. O. Ackley in the 6th post on the 1st page. It is one of my favorite Ackley quotes as it explains in simple terms his customer’s attitude about the increased pressures associated with improved cartridges.
On the second page in the 7th post I included more quotes from Ackley and David White in the 11th post discusses improved cartridge shape and bolt thrust.


http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=5813

If you intend to load an improved cartridge to standard cartridge pressure levels your “improvement” will be longer case life and reduced stress on your rifle action. If you prefer to shovel in a little more coal and crack the throttle wide, you will receive higher velocities.

I have had a .30-30AI for some time.

It is a 21" SS T/C bbl (in 30-30Win) that has been reemed. I can easily shoot regular .30-30 ammo thru it. In fact,that is how I made my initial bunch of brass. The velocities were only slightly slower than a regular .30-30 chamber.

The AI version will hold almost 30% more powder and I can get another 150-200 fps with the 150's and the 170's over the regular old .30-30.

If I resized 375 Win brass I could get another 100(or so) fps.

How this equates to a .30-06,I'm not sure. But most Ackleys will give you another 150-200fps. Holding a AI up next to the regular round you can see that there is a greater amount of difference than one imagines.The shoulder is very sharp and pushed forward and there is almost no taper to the brass-----pruhdlr

A 30-06 AI will have approximately 4% greater powder capacity for another approximate 4% increase in velocity.

The advantage for a bolt gun is the neck sizing and extended life of the case, in addition to the reduced bolt thrust.

William,

it does'ne seem like it was that long ago that I posted all that stuff...

Either this Fall or next Spring i will be doing the same type of testing as before by locking various barrels in a vise and firing them to test and retest how much or how little case taper you can get by with before the cartridge starts sliding rearward upon case firing...

I have since developed many more cartridges and would like to test them as before, to see which of my new cartridges will stay fully contained within the chamber without backing out since they will be fired without the aid of a breech to further compound the testing. When I do get everything set up to do this, I will post pictures and testing information if you think others would fing it informative or at least interesting enough to make the posting worthwhile. What do you think?

A

Time does fly. I hate to admit this but have had some computer trouble – my fault. Could you post a link to your forum again?
I will be very interested in your tests. My wife and I are in a continual discussion over various .25 caliber wildcats. We have a .25-35 in a 20” Model 94, a .25-35AI in a 24” TC and we are looking for something in between. The .25 Bellum and the .25-35 Tomcat are the two top choices, probably on a Marlin 336. We are looking at various twist rates and are certain we will use a 100-grain bullet exclusively. Beartooth forum member “Snow” has a friend who is a custom bullet maker and his prices appear very reasonable – even factoring in the shipping from Australia. His 100-grain flat point bullet looks very good and we are excited about trying it out.
As you are well aware the .219 Zipper and the .25-35 are two cartridges that receive a benefit far out of proportion to the effort involved to “improve” them. When the subject is Improved cartridges is discussed most people think of increased velocity, ease of extraction, increased case life and use of marginal actions are the real benefit.
It will be great fun to see the pictures of your test.

Slim - used to have a Contender carbine barrel chambered for 25-225 Win some years ago. It was a neat little cartridge, but brass started getting hard to come by, so let it go to a fella that wasn't overly concerned about it. It behaved nicely and would probably fit in the middle of your 25-35's.

Kdub
The .25-.225 has been on our list. We were concerned about the small rim, the very straight case shape and the lever action rifle – feed and extraction worries.
David (Assassin) has cured part of this with his slightly modified .225 Winchester chamber. This chamber uses the .30-30 size rim and he forms his cases from .375 Winchester brass.
We were looking at the less “radical” improved cases for these reasons. I am very interested in hearing about Violator22’s results with his Savage Model 99 chambered for the .25-35AI. I am wondering if he will have feeding issues.

William,

You can get to the forum by going through the web site at:

www.dandtcustomgunworks.com

I chamber for Mike Bellm's 257 Bellm that is based on the 5.6X50R case as he has given me permission to do so since he is not doing anymore barrel work for the time being and is referring it over to me...

I have my vise and everything set to where I can start running "backthrust" tests but finding the time right now is the problem. Like i said before, it will probably be later this fall or early spring time before I can devote my time and attention to such a project. Since there has been such a great interest in my doing these tests again and fully documenting everything and taking lot's of pictures, testing several different barrels, chambers and loads, this could get quite drawn out...

I will contact you before i start conducting the tests and let you be my "moderator" along the way (if you would) and help me keep everything lined out so I don't forget anything along the way....

A

Thank you for the link. I havae commited a few small “errors” of judgement on my computer recently.
Time and now weather have affected my shooting over the past two or three Months. The rain has run us off the range during my free time. I finnaly took some days off to shoot the new Marlin rifle. My wife has given up trying to go to the “mud hole” and is shooting in the back yard.

One of the most interesting aspects of your previous tests was the chronograph set up on the backside of the vise to record the velocity of the primer as it left the cartridge case. I am looking forward to your tests.

William,

in doing those tests, we were very lucky that no one was killed by one of those primers or a cartridge case that came out of the chamber at over 2,000 fps!!!

A

Zapzoo:

I really had to think about what I wanted to say about the .30-06 AI before I posted. Mainly because I don’t have an axe to grind and my improved 06 is not the Ackley version, but it is reasonably close.

First- If you have a real tack driver I would not go about re-chambering it. I’m not saying the re-chamber job will make it lose accuracy, but it might. And in my opinion is not worth the risk. Rifles will be very individual in how much accuracy is gained or lost when firing factory ammo in an improved chamber


Second- If you just want to throw 165 grain bullets a little faster, it is probably not as cost effective as buying a .300 mag in the first place. Now if you want to handle heavy bullets a little better and not deal with the problems peculiar to belted cases the 06 improved is the ticket. The extra velocity seems to stabilize the heavy bullets over longer distances and the real heavies (250 grain .30 cal.) need all the help they can get. I have yet to figure out what needs to be shot with a 250 grain .308 bullet that cannot be shot with either a lighter bullet or a larger caliber, but they make ‘em so I shoot ‘em.

Third- People tend to be divided on the improved 06. Some will tell you that they are getting .300 H&H mag velocities while others say they wish they never messed with the thing. I’m not saying that I’ve seen all the data, but I never saw any loading data from Ackley that he indicated was for the improved 06 that was loaded with more powder than the loads he used in the un-improved 06! It must be out there, I’ve just never seen it from Ackley. This may be why there are some people who think it is a total waste of time and money.

By the way, In my books I can’t find a heavy bullet load (over 180 grains) listed by Ackley for the 06 imp., the normal .30-06 yes, but not the improved version.

Fourth- As far as selling the rifle goes; when you sell a wildcat fire arm, sell it to someone who is, or wants to be a wild catter. Many folks who hunted for years don’t follow changes in trends enough to know what we would consider even well known cartridges. The comments I’ve gotten from guys at the range when I shoot something as classic as my .375 H&H has shown me how closed out the world is for some people.

For me, would I do it again? Yes, but I would have done it different. I had two rifles that were wildcats at the time, the 06 improved and an 8mm-06. One of them had to go (so I could buy another gun of course), like an idiot I traded away the 8mm-06 that had been an excellent hunting cartridge in a rifle that fit perfectly. All because I had not done any load development in the improved 06 at the time. Maybe I’d be as upset at myself if it had happened the other way, I don’t know.

To my thinking the .30-06 Improved is really just adding sales tax to the velocity in lighter bullets, but nothing truly earth shattering. It has a little more function with heavier bullets and it is easy to load for. Like all wildcats it is fun to play with. A guy could pick a lot worse round to get into wildcatting, if he just wanted to test the water so to speak.

Regards,
Gene

i'm an ackley fan. they are quite controversial and something to remember is that the parent case will dictate the level of gains. the 30-30, 250 savage, 6mm rem and the 6.5x55 are good cadidates because they have a lot of case taper. so is the 7x57, it will run with the rem mag after it's improved.
i have the 6.5x55AI and absolutely love it. i'm getting close to 3000 fps with 130gr tsx's and ramshot magnum, case life is great and accuracy is phenominal( as a side note case shape has nothing to do with accuracy, just thought i'd throw in the fact that it's not uncommon to put 4 shots into one hole at 100 yds and have the 5th shot go .25 out of the group) i also have a 30-30AI, very worthwhile conversion. i also have a 338/06AI and it will match 338 win mag velocities with 200gr bullets and about 12 grains less powder.
i'm getting ready to build another one, a 25/06AI. it will easily run with the 257 wby and to boot the brass is cheaper and due to the difference in powder consumption it will be much easier on barrels.
the great thing about this hobby is not having to justify the validity of a cartridge, if we did nobody would be shooting these obscenely overbore cartridges that require 30% more powder just to go 200 fps faster. if you want to do it, do it, but be forewarned it gets addictive.

i'm an ackley fan. they are quite controversial and something to remember is that the parent case will dictate the level of gains. the 30-30, 250 savage, 6mm rem and the 6.5x55 are good cadidates because they have a lot of case taper. so is the 7x57, it will run with the rem mag after it's improved.
i have the 6.5x55AI and absolutely love it. i'm getting close to 3000 fps with 130gr tsx's and ramshot magnum, case life is great and accuracy is phenominal( as a side note case shape has nothing to do with accuracy, just thought i'd throw in the fact that it's not uncommon to put 4 shots into one hole at 100 yds and have the 5th shot go .25 out of the group) i also have a 30-30AI, very worthwhile conversion. i also have a 338/06AI and it will match 338 win mag velocities with 200gr bullets and about 12 grains less powder.
i'm getting ready to build another one, a 25/06AI. it will easily run with the 257 wby and to boot the brass is cheaper and due to the difference in powder consumption it will be much easier on barrels.
the great thing about this hobby is not having to justify the validity of a cartridge, if we did nobody would be shooting these obscenely overbore cartridges that require 30% more powder just to go 200 fps faster. if you want to do it, do it, but be forewarned it gets addictive.

Yes, it can be addictive. I have a 30-30AI in a Super 14 Cont.,
30-06AI in a Mod 70 Featherwt & a 25-06AI Sendero. I get real gains with the 30-30AI & the 25-06AI, the gain is small with the 30-06 AI, but it is nice to load & very accurate.

How much should I expect to pay to get a chamber converted to an Ackley?

Depends on what type of action. My T/C's were(IIRC) $70,but that was a few years ago.

Bolts and levers would be a bit more.

Would also suggest that you have it done(especially for the AI's) by a very reputable (real) gunsmith.

My AI's came out perfect,but I have heard some real horror stories. ---pruhdlr

remember that the AI chamber is .004 thousandths shorter than the standard chamber so if you use the factory barrel it will have to be set back. to be honest, all my ackleys have been on fresh barrels with the exception of the 30-30. a person needs to be realistic as to what to expect, the less taper in the parent case the less there is to gain. just the same, don't let that stop you. with 180gr bullets the 30/06AI is very worthwhile, and besides, there is nothing wrong with trying it yourself and coming to your own conclusions. this hobby more than any other is full of experts who gauge their knowledge on a sample group of one (rifle). you can buy a master beta shooting crony with a printer for right at $200.00 and decide for yourself. admittedly the 30/06AI, especially with lighter bullets doesn't show the gains that some other AI's do across the board.... nonetheless, if you read Fred Zeglins book "Wildcat Cartridges" the 30/06AI is one of the most popular of the AI's. if you don't rush me i could look back thru the book and find the quote and the page. by the way, that quote didn't come from Fred, it came from one of the top reamer makers in the country.
bottom line, you do what you feel like doing, i can guarantee that if you do it right you won't lose any accuracy. and beyond that it'll give you some experience with something a little different.
just remember that velocity increases at 1/4th the rate of case capacity. you really should buy the 2 volume set of ackleys books, some of the load data is questionable, simply because he doesn't elaborate on how he came to his conclusions, but just the same there is so much good info in there on such a wide variety of shooting related topics.... i've read them over and over and yet i find myself reading them again, repeatedly. like i say, approach his maximum loads with caution, and the only reason i say that is because he doesn't elaborate on his pressure testing methods. otherwise, its good data.
by the way, you can get those books from brownells. fred is a believer in the ackleys and i thing a real gem for our generation and place in time. i encourage you to also get his book. i was visting with him the other day and he was telling me about a book he's working on about P.O. himself, it ought to be out in about a year he figures. i'd bet it'll be a good one.
any other questions, be sure to post 'em.