I've read a lot of different things about this. What is the truth. I'm not fond of the hot soapy water cleaning technique, so any help will be appreciated. I've also been told that quick twist inline muzzleloaders won't shoot patched balls either. What is your take on this? I've got a couple of medals from our local club for the informal muzzleloader silhouette matches that I shot with my Black Diamond. The rules are that you can use any rifle as long as you use a patched ball and metallic sights. I've produced 4" groups at 100 yards with a round ball and 60grs of Pyrodex Pistol. I won't say that's always the norm, but I'm not the best with open sights, even if they are peeps. Do the round balls seem to shoot OK in the inlines with a moderate charge?

Hi, hciK:
I'm not the most experienced smokepoler around, but Bore Butter - Wonder Lube does build up. A friend was doing a lot of shooting before his bypass op. and got his rifle built up until he could hardly load it, and accuracy went to pot. It took him several hours and several brushes to get down to bare metal.
My T/C Hawkin flinter was well used when I got it. It's pretty hard to inspect a muzzleloader's barrel, but I finally got a look by sliding a disc of oiled paper down to the beech plug and putting a Maglite bulb in through the flashhole bushing port. (Turn off the head.) The barrel looked like it had several large pits in it. I checked again after shooting several hundred balls with Young Country 103 patch lube and the "pits" had disappeared. The "pits" must have been lumps of Wonder Lube bore conditioning. Oh for a proper bore scope. The patches aren't cut up as much either.

A Maglite bulb isn't long enough for a caplock barrel. My friend uses a "grain of wheat bulb" from Radio Shack to reach through the drum.

Some folks haven't had a problem with a build up. I suppose they brush aggressively each time they clean and don't let a build up get started. Apparently carburetor cleaner cuts it fast.

Round balls shoot as long as they don't strip the rifling, in theory. So you can't push a ball as fast in a fast twist barrel as you can in a slow twist, in theory. It sounds like your 60 gr. charge is working great, but how does a 100 gr. load shoot?

I posted some thought on water and soap here:
http://beartoothbullets.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=20597#post20597

Bye
Jack

I'm really only interested in using the round balls for practice/matches so I don't know what it will do with 100 grains. I suspect I'd be burning holes in my patch with that load. I have not been able to retrieve any patches as is, but I see no evidence of leading. I shot in a silhoutte match today, there where only 8-9 shooters, most of them where blown away by the fact that a quick twist inline took the gold with a patched ball. EVERYONE else was shooting traditional rifles, even though most said they had a modern rifle at home.

I found some rust in my bore previously, nothing major, but there none the less. I cleaned the bore with JB bore paste and light oil and made sure as I could be that there was no oil left in the bore when I was done. I am still not getting the results that Bore Butter promises. It's easy to examine the bore in my rifle as it has a removable breech plug. I've been using the Bore Butter and the natural type cleaner. Every time I run a wet patch down my barrel before shooting I'm getting what looks to be some evidence of light corrosion on the patch. I'm using T/C's pre-lubed patches because I'm new to the patch and ball deal, and I'm too lazy to be lubing patches. It was something of an accomplishment for me just to start using the powder measure instead of pellets! The barrel is easy to clean on this rifle because patches can be pushed through when the breech plug is out, but I don't know what to do about what I percieve to be corrosion even though I'm following the directions to a "T"

kciH,
With an in-line I can see why you would prefer not to use the soap & water method. With my Hawken-style rifle it is quite easy to take the barrel off, remove the nipple and snail cleanout screw and then just put the breech end in a bucket of hot soapy water and use piston power to draw the water up the bore with the ramrod. As I stated in another thread, I used this method for about twenty years with no probs. Often I just used Crisco as lube, and at one point I used Hodgdon Spit-Patch, which both worked well with hunting loads (100gr) on an Ox-Yoke patch.
Then when I started trying the "natural" lubes like Wonder Lube and cleaning with B-P solvent I started having troubles like you are having. It ended up pitting my bore to the point that it isn't useful any more.
BTW, I had (I can't find it now) a little bitty bore light you just drop down the muzzle. The only part of the bore you can't see is right at the flash hole.
FWIW, I'm no expert. This is the only muzzleloader I've ever had. ID

Hi, Gents:
I've seen that red stuff on the patches when I use pre-Wonder Lubed patches, but not with Young Country 103 lube. Some folks say it's burnt Wonder Lube residue, but it looks like rust to me! However, that's the color of the centre of a fired patch, so there may be sometime to this theory.

The easiest way to lube patches is to put a stack in a small tin can (pizza mix) and melt the lube into them in a double boiler. You can do a hundred at a time.

Patches only go 20-30 feet down range. Were you expecting them to go further and not looking close enough to the shooting bench? Then there was the time my Chrony quit, and I found a patch on top of the rear sensor. That was at 10 feet.

Bye
Jack

IDShooter,

I don't have a problem performing the hot water washing, it's a simple process with an inline, moreso than with a fixed breech rifle I would have to imagine. It's a pain, but tolerable I guess. The issue I have with it is that when I immerse the plastic, fiber optic front sight of the rifle into the hot water, bad things happen. I'm not knocking TC here, because I love the rifle and many other of their products, but the front sight and ramp are both made of plastic. When you make a rifle with a suggested cleaning process of immersing the front sight in very hot water, why would you make it ouf of plastic? I guess I'll have to go back to the hot water method. It was a lot more convenient to just clean the bore with some natural cleaner and run a bore buttered patch up and down the bore a few times before putting the breech plug and nipple back in.

KCiH - When I get a new m-loader the first thing I do is clean the barrel and everything with soapy HOT water. I have to wear a leather glove to keep from being burned when holding the barrel. I then rinse w/ boiling pure water. Wait till the barrel drains and dries, it won't be long. While everything is still real hot, I swab w/ bore butter so that it really sucks into the metal. I now consider the barrel and plug, etc, to be seasoned. I NEVER again use soap, no more than I would when washing a seasoned cast iron skillet. I will occassionally use just pure boiling water to reduce the build up and finish up w/ a new swipe of butter, but I don't do that much. My guns stay loaded w/ powder and ball at all times year round. I keep the hammer down on the nipple w/ a piece of inner tube as a sealing gasket, and keep tape over the muzzle always thus preventing the intrusion of moisture from breech or muzzle. This system has never failed me, even after a couple of years the suckers go off instantly. By the way, I have lots of fun shooting patched RB's w/ 60 gr. ffg at stuff that's 40 or 50 yards away. This w/ my 1 in 32 twist barrel. I don't use that load hunting, I use the belted conicals w/ 100 gr. ffg, but the squib load RB's sure are fun, accurate enough for plinking, and a lot cheaper. See ya

Mainer,
Thanks for the input on this. From the advice I'm getting on here, I think I need to start over again with a fresh hot soapy water clean for one last attempt. I'm certain there is no petrochemical products left in the bore, the problem I'm having is that the bore butter does not seem to be giving me the corrosion protection that I need. I used to use the HOT water method which led me to a problem with the plastic front sight and ramp that T/C, who's products I love, unwisely decided to provide as standard issue on a rifle that would have it's muzzle imersed in hot water. I've since taken care of this problem by replacing the front sight and ramp with a set from Williams, which took a little doing to make the ramp match the fat muzzleloader barrel.

Thanks again for all the input on this matter.

kciH - I pump the hot water w/ the breech submerged, and the muzzle up.I also like to have a pan of boiling water with some "butter" melted into it. I soak my breech plugs and nipples in this.

Is TC's bore butter the same stuff as wonderlube 1000plus?

Hi, Muzzlestuff:
Welcome to the board. I skipped over your post yesterday and thought I'd get back sooner.

It's the same. I've heard they've changed the formula a couple of times, and they use a stiiffer blend on the wads compared to the stuff in tubes. At least it was when I tried it several years ago.

Check the 4th Q&A here: http://www.oxyoke.com/wonderlube.html

Bye
Jack

KCIH, if you use pyrodex and warm water only and compound it with bore butter you will ruin this rifle in time.
Pyrodex is not totaly water soulibable,and bore butter is a patch lube and nothing else.
Pyrodex contains some chemical called percholite or sumthin like that and it will not come totaly clean.It may look lean but it will cause deeep pitting after extended use.
Clean with a 90% rubbing alchole found at any drug store,then dry patch and use Brakefree clp to protect the barrel.
The best info i can give on the round ball accuracy is Dutch Schultz.
I think this is the link www.bpaccuracy.com

Hi, Gents:
Potassium Perchlorate. A poisonous crystalline compound, KClO[3], used as an oxidizing agent, a bleach, and a disinfectant and in making explosives, matches, and fireworks.

It liberates chloride ions when it's fired, which, when combined with sodium or potassium ions, create salt, which rots barrels. Fellow name of Bill Knight aka Mad Monk wrote a chemistry textbook on black powder and the various substitutes over on the old Shooters.com. Pyrodex is the most corrosive of all.

Bye
Jack

Thanks Jack , I knew there was a reason I didn't like pyrodex besides being somewhat gummy. Also someone had mentioned about lubing their patches !! I tried that when I first got in too Blackpowder but what I found was that on real cold days the patch would actually stick to the ball and I could not hit the broadside of a barn. I have just spit lubed then since and have not had any trouble
Bob

There is no substitute for a good women, a good rabbit and squirrel dog, and genuwine black powder.
If the woman can tan hides, cook and make corn likker, it won't get no better.

Jack thanks for the reply.the Mad Monk is the fellow who educated me and many others over on the now dead shooters forum.
He has taken barrels that were seasoned in borebutter and pyrodex and cut them in half.What a mess they were.
I dont shoot pyrodex,i shoot triple seven now which also contains the same chemicals as pyro but in very reduced amounts.So they need to be cleaned with some thing besides soap and water.
I have goex and aint never had problems with it with soap and water but the triple seven is more consistant on velocity and fouling from can to can.Dont always want to buy 25# of powder at once.
The triple seven seems to be the best sub powder made so far.Hasnt got the nice aroma as the black powder but it does make good smoke.
If we want to keep are smoke poles in good shape for years to come we need to over come the seasoning myth that has ruined many of gun.

I have used the bore butter for storing in between matches, of interest I used to have a 1-48 54 tc hawken and used 530rb and .020 patch with a load of 120gns of p pyrodex and it shot 3inches at 100yds wasn't supposed to but did. This was my deer load for years. I almost always shoot black powder but have expiermented with all the new stuff to come along, black canyon I shot a lb of it without cleaning the bore on a CVA .50 I bought for 25$. It shot well but was a tad slow and you had to load it with very heavy pressure if you wanted consistancy, also the shelf life was a year and it went to hades. The end result, I don't use bore butter for shooting just for in between shoots, can't get around the cleaning chore. Take care and have fun. Swany

Gentlemen,
I am currenly shooting a Rem 700ML, blue, not stainless. To clean I use Windex with Vinegar. I cut up blue paper shop towels for cleaning patches. After cleaning and drying the bore, I preserve with BreakFree CLP. If I suspect plastic sabot build up, I put a foam ear plug on the nipple, drop the hammer, set the gun upright in the corner of my workbench and fill the bore with carb cleaner. Let it soak for an hour, pour it out, dry, lube and put away.

1:28 twist shoots round balls great w/50grain charges of 2Fg.

And I agree that Pyrodex should be the powder of last resort. I prefer real BP.

Mule

So i guess none of you like TC maxi ball and maxi hunter with the lube in it? So the TC moosemilk looking stuff(#13 bore cleaner) not good(its a form of moosemilk right)? How you intergret it if you do use it since most you guess don't use it i don't think.

bravo2,
If you haven't noticed, shooters, reloaders and bullet casters are a bunch of tightwad scroungers. I have almost been run over picking a wheel weight up in the street. TC #13 is a good cleaner. For the price, I can buy four times as much Windex. And Windex works just as well or better. The more I scrounge, the more I can afford to shoot :D When I want to shoot big lead bullets, I use Lee REAL or Mini's cast from soft lead-roof flashing. See, it's a tightwad scrounger thing.
Shoot Safe!
Mule

That fugures,lol! I cleaned my muzzle loader and tell you i got it cleaner, i tried this gun scrubber #3 stuff by shooter's choice and i got down to leading and got it out and then black came out so guessing it was bp too. It was brownish lube before that then light brow,tan like before i got to the gray lead looking stuff, i oiled it down with CLP instead of the lube. I will just use lube on bullets when shooting only since most of you agree thats the way to go. Shooters Choice cleaner/degreaser gun scrubber3 works great! I did not need to brush,tried brushing and it was not any help since cleaner already got it out. I'm going to try the lapping bullets the guy on here has to make it smoother and if any rust in there it should strip that out too. I just need a lot of input on favoite loads. I got Triple7 powder for it in ffg. Not tried anything in it yet and not evan shot one. I want to get a cva hawkens ML 50 carbine later,seen one once that was camoed and liked it,but not seen any in a couple years, nor any cva hawkens style.

bravo i dont see nuthin wrong with using borebutter as a patch lube or on conicals,just want to clean it out good when your done shooting.
i tried the tc maxi hunters in my lyman gpr with good results,took a pretty heafty load of 777 but it shoots great.
Im gonna try the maxiballs in the knight one of these days just to see what they do. :D

Propredator, what gr weight is the bullts you tried in TC maxihunter that you really liked? I'm thinking on getting some 350fr in it to try will trying the 320 in maxiball conicals. You got a 50 right? Inline or side hammer one?

Hi, hciK:
hours and several brushes to get down to bare metal. I'm not the most experienced smokepoler around, but Bore Butter - Wonder Lube does build up....
Round balls shoot as long as they don't strip the rifling, in theory. So you can't push a ball as fast in a fast twist barrel as you can in a slow twist, in theory. It sounds like your 60 gr. charge is working great, but how does a 100 gr. load shoot?

I posted some thought on water and soap here:
http://beartoothbullets.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=20597#post20597

Bye
Jack
The 2 deer I put in my freezer both fell from an inline .50 CVA using a patched RB & 100gr. Neither one of them kicked or twitched, just fell down dead.

As I said before, most of the OTC (Over The Counter) lubes contain stuff you don't want in your bore; fillers, dyes, ect...

Bore seasoning is BS, are you shooting or cooking breakfast? What gets me is that centerfire shooters will go through extreme measures to ensure they have a clean bore and these same people will buy into the "seasoning" BS when it comes to ML's. The so-called "seasoning" is most times caused by the build up of burned crud contained in the lube, it's fouling not seasoning!

All my ML bores are clean and shiny enough that you can inspect them by shining a light in the muzzle and using the reflected light from the breech plug to see the whole bore.

I clean with my own blend of cleaner, I don't like windex because it does contain the blue dye and the evaporating agent they use in it to help curb streaks is corrosive and can penetrate the breech plugs threads resulting in delayed problems.

Fast twist barrels will shoot roundballs to some degree of velocity and a lot of it will depend on the quality of said ball. Spinning a RB too fast will cause the inherently stabile projectile to become unstabile because it's flaws will be exagerated. Using low velocities will usually allow their use in bores with a twist rate exceeding the necessary number of turns.

Petroleum products combust into ash & soot and simply add to the amount of fouling you're getting from the powder. Blackpowder lubes need to do more than lube, they have to help control fouling or you're left with spending more time wiping than shooting. Using my lube I ran a 67 shot string w/o wiping before the carbon ring at the top of the powder column got to where I could feel it on loading. I tried this with the OTC lube that claims X thousands of shots w/o wiping...carbon ring is serious by shot #5 or 6 in every caliber of rifle & smoothbore I tried it in following the direction exactly. You may be able to keep loading but at some point you'll have the ball sitting on the carbon ring and the result will be destruction of your barrel. Because of this I do not condone firing long strings w/o wiping but the safe number of shots you can go needs to be determined by the condition of your bore and the quality of your lube.

You don't need boiling water to clean your bore if you start with a clean bore and use the right lube & proceedure. Warm water, 100°F-110°F is plenty hot enough to clean w/o worry about the fake sights & stocks. All salts are water soluble but some are just more stubborn than others. Back to the issue of the lube, if your lube keeps the salts from being able to stick to the bore, it makes cleaning easier.

Email me, markkw@earthlink.net

I read an article somewhere about "miracle oil" used by bp shooters as a patch lube for the past couple of hundred years. It's olive oil. Anybody ever use it?

Olive oil will readily begin oxidizing immediately when it contacts air, it is also very reactive to oxidizers and produces peroxides in direct relation to the amount of oxidation. Smoke produced from heating and partial combustion forms a medium hard adheasive varnish. In temperatures below 43°F, olive oil will begin to separate, at 35°F it looses all effective lubricating properties. When oxidized in combination with blackpowder, complex salts are formed. The complex salts are less soluble in water and will readily oxide bond to iron and get trapped under the varnish layer.

Depending on the climate, growing season, ect, the amount of sodium contained in any particular batch of olive oil can vary greatly and this will not be reflected in the "nutrition information" on the individual package. Nutrition information is based on an average of representative samples and does not reflect the actual composition of the particular organic product.

Thanks for the info Markkw..I guess I won't be trying that old recipe...now, what about urinating down the barrel like the old Buffalo hunters ;^)

There's a reason they put non-corrosive materials on either side of the urinals in commercial rest rooms. Ammonia salts are extremely corrosive. Want to prove this to yourself, take a clean degreased piece of steel and pee on it and come back a few hours later and see the rust.

Before you ask, I'll bust your bubble and tell you that peroxide will kill your bore faster than not even bothering to clean it at all.

There's a lot of mythes and a lot more very bad home brew recipes out there that do more harm than good. I've been testing and experimenting with lubes for both blackpowder and smokeless for 20+ years now.

The whole "seasoning" thing is pure horse pucky. Seasoning as in a cast iron fry pan is nothing more than allowing a varnish layer to build up on the surface.

Blackpowder lube must do a minimum of three things; 1- lubricate, 2- prevent corrosion, 3- be non-drying. Most BP lubes fail all three of these "must have" conditions but some will work in limited capasity. Most of the home brews fail because of using the wrong ingredients. Most production lubes fail because they contain a lot of crap you do not need nor want while others simply use the wrong components as well. Dye's (colorants) are not needed nor wanted and only serve to appeal to the purchaser visually. Fillers are used to bulk up the product so you need to use more lube than is really needed resulting in the seller selling more lube. Perfumes are also added to appeal to the purchaser yet most of these agents add to the corrosiveness of the powder fouling. The yellow dye used in one common lube turns extremely abrasive when exposed to the heat from the powder burn.

Markkw, I do very little bp shooting but when I do I find it a lot of fun. I have a T/C Hawken in .45 cal that I bought back in the late sixties. I've alway used fffg bp, wash with hot soap and water and then clean with Hoppes #9. I bought some T/C bore butter but now I hesitate to use it. What do you recommend?

Sent you a PM

Olive oil will readily begin oxidizing immediately when it contacts air, it is also very reactive to oxidizers and produces peroxides in direct relation to the amount of oxidation. Smoke produced from heating and partial combustion forms a medium hard adheasive varnish. In temperatures below 43°F, olive oil will begin to separate, at 35°F it looses all effective lubricating properties. When oxidized in combination with blackpowder, complex salts are formed. The complex salts are less soluble in water and will readily oxide bond to iron and get trapped under the varnish layer.

Depending on the climate, growing season, ect, the amount of sodium contained in any particular batch of olive oil can vary greatly and this will not be reflected in the "nutrition information" on the individual package. Nutrition information is based on an average of representative samples and does not reflect the actual composition of the particular organic product.
Sounds pretty good. Like you know what yer talking about. Ever actually fire a blackpowder firearm using olive oil in the lube? I'll make my reply short. When is it ever 35 degrees inside a blackpowder firearm once the powder ignites? I've used olive oil suspended in paraffin wax and bees wax for lube pills in cap and ball revolvers on many an occasion and all my barrels and cylinders are free of any kind of varnish and trapped complex salts. Usually while firing the guns occasional checking will show plenty of shine in there. That's before an occaisional wipe down with a patch wet with a solvent or ballistol. Maybe the beeswax or paraffin in the grease cookies (lube pills) tempers the alleged negatives of all that oxidized olive oil. Oxide bond to iron? My barrels are steel. Anywhoooo, maybe it's a good thing I don't use olive oil all the time anymore. Mutton tallow(unsalted) is better I think. :) Wonder what that does chemically to my iron....I mean, steel barrels? Side note.....I never was a fan of the seasoned barrel. Never made much sense to me. I'm a fan of the clean barrel. The use of WD40 penetrating oil to wash out any water or soap left from the barrel cleaning must unseason my barrels of all the varnish and trapped complex salts. Yeah, WD40 "is" a petroleum product. Sacrilege. Flog me. Whip me. :p hee hee

Ever actually fire a blackpowder firearm using olive oil in the lube?

Yes I have, quite a bit actually. Been testing BP lubes for more than 15 years.

When is it ever 35 degrees inside a blackpowder firearm once the powder ignites?

Once powder ignites, it's not but what about the lube and barrel assuming the ambient temperature when hunting in 5°F weather all day? Once the olive oil breaks down thermally, it never returns to it's previous state and it's not a very good lubricant to begin with.

Oxide bond to iron? My barrels are steel

The major component of all steels including stainless steels is Fe (IRON)


Mutton tallow(unsalted) is better I think. Wonder what that does chemically to my iron....I mean, steel barrels?

Nothing, if it is in fact "pure" (un-cut) and is not exposed to blackpowder combustion.

I'm a fan of the clean barrel. The use of WD40 penetrating oil to wash out any water or soap left from the barrel cleaning must unseason my barrels of all the varnish and trapped complex salts.

Yes, WD-40 will displace water but it will not cut through varnish and it will not dissolve salts. Varnish is clear and shiny until it oxidized (burns) and turns dark. Just because it's shiny does not mean it does not have salts, moisture and oxygen trapped under it. WD-40 leaves a residual film behind too. BTW, most all soaps are abrasive & corrosive.

Revolvers burn little powder and operate at low pressures with a short barrel and loose even more by venting at the cylinder gap in addition to the nipple. Long guns are a much different creature with barrels 4 to 6 times longer than most pistols and loose very little pressure while burning at least four times as much powder.

Yes I have, quite a bit actually. Been testing BP lubes for more than 15 years.



Once powder ignites, it's not but what about the lube and barrel assuming the ambient temperature when hunting in 5°F weather all day? Once the olive oil breaks down thermally, it never returns to it's previous state and it's not a very good lubricant to begin with.



The major component of all steels including stainless steels is Fe (IRON)




Nothing, if it is in fact "pure" (un-cut) and is not exposed to blackpowder combustion.



Yes, WD-40 will displace water but it will not cut through varnish and it will not dissolve salts. Varnish is clear and shiny until it oxidized (burns) and turns dark. Just because it's shiny does not mean it does not have salts, moisture and oxygen trapped under it. WD-40 leaves a residual film behind too. BTW, most all soaps are abrasive & corrosive.

Revolvers burn little powder and operate at low pressures with a short barrel and loose even more by venting at the cylinder gap in addition to the nipple. Long guns are a much different creature with barrels 4 to 6 times longer than most pistols and loose very little pressure while burning at least four times as much powder.


Fifteen years uh? I been at it over 20. If you got the info then post it. What lubes do you use. Share the knowledge.

I've used olive oil even in fridgid weather(like CVA Grease Patch better though) and even though it seems like it can freeze(put some in the freezer awhile and returned it to room temp and it's not separated or any different than before it was frozen. I don't have trouble with it. Proof is in the pudding. I use it and it works well especially in lube pills for cap&ball revolvers when it's "mixed with wax". Tell me about wax now. hee hee Yeah sure the major component in steel is iron. Of course once it's steel it's different. That's why it's called steel.
Mutton tallow is ok until it's exposed to blackpowder combustion? Heck, I better let all the people that use it and think it's a good lube that it really ain't. I guess when it's mixed with wax and works wonders to keep my cap&ball revolver barrels free of fouling for over 200 balls it's an illusion right? Try yerself and see. Mutton tallow is a good lube and has been accepted as such in the blackpowder fraternity forever.
WD-40 can't cut thru varnish and disolve salts? It's a penetrant ya know. It loosens foreign stuff and cleans it off the steel. Removes it by penetrating under it and washes it out. It doesn't have to disolve salts. The water and dishsoap do that well enough.The WD-40 removes moisture and does disolve stuff like varnish(if it's there at all) and removes salts. It's a penetrant(repeat).
Just because it's shiny doesn't mean it doesn't have salts moisture and oxygen trapped under it???? Well, look in my barrels cap&ballers or rifles(if ya could) and see if you see any sign of all that varnish,salts ect.ect. causing corrosion. It ain't there. The corrosion that would be there if all that stuff was actually left in the barrels is not there.
I think you just want to debate. Well, for the good of all the blackpowder shooters that may read this.....if you got the info then give it up. Refrain from the negative and give some positive info. Tell me too! What have you found in the last fifteen years that works well as a blackpowder lube? T/C Natural Lube 1000? Dixie GunWorks "Old Slickum? CVA Grease Patch? Mutton Tallow? Beeswax-olive oil? SPG Lube? Thompsons Lube? Side note.....have you ever used lube pills (grease cookies) made of equal parts bees wax-paraffin wax-mutton tallow(or olive oil) under the balls of yer cap&ball revolvers? Tell me what's negative about that too? Tell me the lube pills don't act as gas checks to remedy the "under sized chamber syndrom" the Italian revolvers have? Well I have to go put my bottle of olive oil back in the cupboard now since I can see it's no different now than before I put it in the freezer. hee hee Heck....I better stop reusing that olive oil fer stir fry veggies since the heat and the refridgerator are making it separate and "thermally" break down. Funny I hadn't noticed that aspect of it. looks the same to me after using it fer stir fry veggies and then storing it in the fridge. By the way. I havent noticed the olive oil oxidizing once the air hits it when the bottle is open. How long does it take for the "oxidizing" to ruin it? Anywhooo....in regards to the truth about "bore seasoning"....I'm a fan of the "clean barrel" and I see bore seasoning as something that should be cleaned out of a rifle barrel.......so after it's stored awhile I don't go back and find "reddish brown stuff come out with a clean patch. I want the barrels clean and greased fer storage until I shoot again and wipe the grease out. As I think I mentioned(for the sake of offering positive info) earlier when I clean a barrel I will go back to it every day or two for awhile and slobber oil on patches and wipe the bore and then remove that with clean dry patches and then re-slobber with oil and let the barrel sit until I go back to it and wipe the barrel and get "white patches" coming out. Oil saturates under any stuff in the microscopic pores of the metal(look at a barrel under a microscope and it looks like mountains and valleys) left after cleaning and puts it in suspension in the oil so it can be removed. There is almost always some stuff (no matter what lube is used) left in the barrels even if initially patches come out white. The repeated oiling and wiping removes it. Also saturates into the threads of a breech plug to help reduce corrosion in that area. So....if you believe as I do or you are of the opinion that "bore seasoning" is deprimential to the barrel steel then we are at least in aggreement on that opinion. Of course the "seasoning" is burnt organic matter that leaves "carbon" stuck to the barrel like in an old iron frying pan that has been seasoned. I believe corrosion causing stuff can hide under that "carbon" that "seasons". Stuff like the salts and acids left behind from blackpowder combustion. Like I said I'm a fan of "THE CLEAN BARREL" hee hee That doesn't mean that I refrain from using T/C Natural Lube 1000 either. It's not a bad lube. Neither is SPG lube. The secrete ingredient(edible and organic-could it be olive oil mixed with beeswax?) originating in "SPG lube" that revolutionized the blackpowder lube industry is the lubing ingredient in all the "yellow" lube stuff no matter what company sells it. In my "opinion" Steve Garbe that invented SPG Lube sold the secrete ingredient info to companies making the "yellow stuff". Just my opinion. I don't know if Steve Garbe "seasons" the bores of his blackpowder cartridge rifles or not. There is a web page for SPG Lube that has an e-mail address where the question can be broached. Makes sense to ask the inventor about the "seasoning" since the ingredient that seasons was discovered by him as far as I know.

If you're waiting for me to lower myself to your level of personal attacks, it's not going to happen.

I will be more than happy to debate you facts though. You say you've been working on lubes for over 20 years but have you spent the multiple thousands of dollars like I have on scientific testing? Have you spent endless hours doing research on compounds and chemicals learning everything about them?

You say you want to hear "positive info" but have you read your own post?

OK, Gents, let's keep this discussion civil.

Bye
Jack

Markkw, none of what I replied with is meant to be a personnal attack. It is just a discussion to me about an aspect of shooting blackpowder. I do try to offer info that I believe ,from experience, is tried and true and helpful to people. That is what I try to offer. Helpful info that may make someones excursion into blackpowder shooting more enjoyable. Sure I read my own post. I wrote it. No I haven't spent lots of money on research and I haven't spent countless hours researching lubes. I have spent countless hours shooting blackpowder rifles and cap&ball revolvers though. More fun. hee hee hee Anywhoooo..... where's the info on some really good blackpowder lube? Still researching?
Keeping it a secrete for commercial use only?
Moderator Sir, I don't see anywhere in my posts where I was not civil. I may say it like I see it for the sake of the other shooters and state any positive info I may have to share. I may refute or contradict someones opinion but isn't that part of a discussion? Are we allowed to disagree with peoples opinions on this forum? I feel an obligation to do so if I see there is mis-information being put forth to people. Of course I assume people will know I'm stating an opinion. I usually will give a clue or state outright that something is an opinion rather than accepted established scientific proven facts. Opinions from experience. I'm an "old timer". An "old timer" that will do whatever is possible and civil to further the sport of blackpowder shooting by giving info that I've found to be sound. I feel a kinship between myself and all the blackpowder shooters that post on a forum. I respect them all and sincerly hope I don't come across to them with un-civil postings. Anywhoooo.........I will try to be as civil as is possible for me to do. See ya Buds!

Well all that I can contribute is that I have been shootin' BP Rifles and Revs 20+ years myself. Sense I can't find Young's Lightning Lube any I make my own blend of lube pills with Bolwax(lite petroleum based toilet seal rings), or more politicaly correct Beeswax, parafin, and Olive or Soy Oil. (Corn oil, vegie oil, peanut oil, canola oil) will work as substitutes. Also Crisco, Tallow, T/C Natural lube 1ooo Bore Butter. I use these pills with BP C&B Revolvers on top of black powder and uder the ball. Keep them shootin' all day without the fouling harding up and freezin' the cylinders. Long with keeping the arbor lubed(splatter from between the cylinder and forcing cone) and that space for fouling softened. Keeps the barrel fouling softened/lubed grooves. Also does seal each udersized chambered to groove ball as would a well lubed patched ball in a rifle. Increases accuracy and longevity of shooting time and no need to clean between loading of say at least 100 rounds.
For Rifles I prefer pillow ticking and Mooses Milk. But have used Olive oiled patches with no complaints. Washed in Scalding Hot Soapy water and rinse.
That's been my experiance and is my preferance.
X- Aerospace, but it don't take a Rocket Scientist to shoot BP the way they want to and tell what works.
I am always willing to learn a better way and listen when revealed.
SG

Well all that I can contribute is that I have been shootin' BP Rifles and Revs 20+ years myself. Sense I can't find Young's Lightning Lube any I make my own blend of lube pills with Bolwax(lite petroleum based toilet seal rings), or more politicaly correct Beeswax, parafin, and Olive or Soy Oil. (Corn oil, vegie oil, peanut oil, canola oil) will work as substitutes. Also Crisco, Tallow, T/C Natural lube 1ooo Bore Butter. I use these pills with BP C&B Revolvers on top of black powder and uder the ball. Keep them shootin' all day without the fouling harding up and freezin' the cylinders. Long with keeping the arbor lubed(splatter from between the cylinder and forcing cone) and that space for fouling softened. Keeps the barrel fouling softened/lubed grooves. Also does seal each udersized chambered to groove ball as would a well lubed patched ball in a rifle. Increases accuracy and longevity of shooting time and no need to clean between loading of say at least 100 rounds.
For Rifles I prefer pillow ticking and Mooses Milk. But have used Olive oiled patches with no complaints. Washed in Scalding Hot Soapy water and rinse.
That's been my experiance and is my preferance.
X- Aerospace, but it don't take a Rocket Scientist to shoot BP the way they want to and tell what works.
I am always willing to learn a better way and listen when revealed.
SG
I sometimes worry that we might get too scientific about all this stuff...over engineer things that don't need to be over engineered.

Just to make my first post on this particular forum, I'll toss in that I don't happen to believe in the bore seasoning concept...I want no bui;ldup what-so-ever in my bores and I clean/scrubb them back to the bare, raw metal after every shoot.

Hooked breeches sit in a 5 gallon bucket of steaming hot soapy water, patch & brush it good every time, hot water rinse, dry patch it immediately to avoid flash rust, let it sit a couple minutes for the residual heat to work, patch it heavily with WD40, dry patch that out and heavily plaster it with NL1000...heavily.

Except when deer sesason is in, I shoot every Saturday morning year round and don't like to wipe between shots...NL1000 lets me shoot range sessions without wiping between shots for most of the year.....in the cooler, drier, low humidity months of Dec/Jan/Feb here, I use a wetter patch lube...Hoppes No9 Plus...to keep shooting the whole session without wiping between shots.

Been into muzzleloading 15+ years, Flintlocks for the past 5 years...it's a great hobby

.....in the cooler, drier, low humidity months of Dec/Jan/Feb here, I use a wetter patch lube...Hoppes No9 Plus...to keep shooting the whole session without wiping between shots.

Been into muzzleloading 15+ years, Flintlocks for the past 5 years...it's a great hobby

TC I'm pretty sure you may have used Mooses Milk or heard of it... I also have used Hoppes' No. 9 which i really good also. Seein' how you been shooti' Smoke Poles a time. Do you have a recipe to make Mooses Milk or know the ingreediants? Once upon a time I did have it from a Rondevous campfire jawjaggin' jug passin' session any moons ago... but it's long gone now.
Good ta meet ya.

TC I'm pretty sure you may have used Mooses Milk or heard of it... I also have used Hoppes' No. 9 which i really good also. Seein' how you been shooti' Smoke Poles a time. Do you have a recipe to make Mooses Milk or know the ingreediants? Once upon a time I did have it from a Rondevous campfire jawjaggin' jug passin' session any moons ago... but it's long gone now.
Good ta meet ya.

Here's one from a guy on another forum...a lot of guys on that forum use it and give it rave reviews:

Quote:Stumpkiller's moose milk

Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) __ 8 oz.
Castor Oil _______________ 3 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap ________ 1 oz.
Witch Hazel ______________ 4 oz.
Water (non-chlorinated) __ 16 oz.

Add in the above order and shake well to mix as added, and again before every use or transfer. Oil and water don't mix, dontcha know. Castor is alcohol soluable, but not in water. And yes, the witch hazel does seem to make a difference in how well it smears and coats the bore.

I dip cotton strips twice, allowing them to dry flat, for "dry patching" (it's still oily, but not messy). Works great as a wet lube and powder solvent, too.

For absolute target or hunting I either wipe between shots with a spit patch if using a ball block or else add a drop of fresh milk to the patch and smear it between my thumb and index finger if cutting at the muzzle.

==========================================

Quote:Stumpy's moose snot

A premium multi-shot between wiping (10+) patch lube stable over a wide temperature range.
SPECIFICALLY designed for use of patched round balls in a loading block

Beeswax 2 oz.
Castor Oil 8 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.


Heat beeswax in a soup can set a pot of water. ( A double-boiler. I keep my beeswax in a one pound coffee can and measure out what I need by melting it and pouring it into measuring cups). Add just enough water so the inner can does not begin to float (should be just short of the lube level in the can). Heat the water to a low boil. In a separate can, add the castor oil and Murphy's oil soap (cold). Once the beeswax is melted, swap the castor oil can in the pot of water for the beeswax. Add the beeswax to the oils. It will clump up. Stir with an ice tea spoon as the mixture heats up. When it fully melts there will be a scum that floats to the top and just won't mix in. Be patient. DO NOT COOK THE MIXTURE. Once the solids are dissolved there is no need to heat further. Skim the scum off. Remove the mix from the heat and wipe the water off the outside (so it won't drip into the container when you pour it out). FINAL TOP SECRET STEP: Add a teaspoon of Murphy's Oil Soap and stir vigorously. This last step makes the lube frothy and smooth - really adds to the appearance; though it doesn't seem to matter to the function of the lube. Clamp the can in the jaws of a vice-grip pliers and pour into the waiting tins. Allow to cool a half hour.

Note: it if is a hinged tin - line the edge that has the hinges with a strip of aluminum foil so it doesn't ooze out before it cools.

Here's one from a guy on another forum...a lot of guys on that forum use it and give it rave reviews:

Quote:Stumpkiller's moose milk


Flintlock thanks for the recipes, I'll have to try them out.
Got um in my BP Notes Folder... sounds good to me.

SG

Hi, hciK:
I'm not the most experienced smokepoler around, but Bore Butter - Wonder Lube does build up. A friend was doing a lot of shooting before his bypass op. and got his rifle built up until he could hardly load it, and accuracy went to pot. It took him several hours and several brushes to get down to bare metal.
My T/C Hawkin flinter was well used when I got it. It's pretty hard to inspect a muzzleloader's barrel, but I finally got a look by sliding a disc of oiled paper down to the beech plug and putting a Maglite bulb in through the flashhole bushing port. (Turn off the head.) The barrel looked like it had several large pits in it. I checked again after shooting several hundred balls with Young Country 103 patch lube and the "pits" had disappeared. The "pits" must have been lumps of Wonder Lube bore conditioning. Oh for a proper bore scope. The patches aren't cut up as much either.

A Maglite bulb isn't long enough for a caplock barrel. My friend uses a "grain of wheat bulb" from Radio Shack to reach through the drum.

Some folks haven't had a problem with a build up. I suppose they brush aggressively each time they clean and don't let a build up get started. Apparently carburetor cleaner cuts it fast.

Round balls shoot as long as they don't strip the rifling, in theory. So you can't push a ball as fast in a fast twist barrel as you can in a slow twist, in theory. It sounds like your 60 gr. charge is working great, but how does a 100 gr. load shoot?

I posted some thought on water and soap here:
http://beartoothbullets.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=20597#post20597

Bye
Jackare you kidding?