1st time poster here.
Indiana is in the process of changing the rules for deer hunting. The previous rules allowed only shotguns with slugs, muzzleloading rifles and handguns. The spirit of the new rules will allow rifles in pistol calibers. The letter of the new rules says the bullet diameter must be at least .358 and the case length cannot be less than 1.16 or greater than 1.625.

I have reloaded for many years but have never considered a wildcat until now.

From perusing my reloading books my idea is to chop a .416 Rigby off to 1.630 and neck it down to accept a .358 bullet.

Am I way off base? Is there something similar out there? What do y'all think?

Welcome to the forum breeze. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.

Why not just use one of the pistol calibers in a rifle. I've have very good luck with the standard 44 magnum for deer out to 150 yards and there are a number of guns chambered in pistol calibers such as Rugers fine little bolt gun the 77/44 and a bunch of levers in everything from 357 mag to 454 Casull.

You certainly could build a wildcat, but that's a lot of time and money to gain 50 yards or so.

You mention necking it down to .358. Necking down .416 Rigby case would result in a bottleneck shaped case, right? Doesn't it have to be a straight walled case to meet the new Ind. regs.? I don't think this would meet the requirements.

I've been thinking about this too and haven't come up with any great ideas. .357 Maximum may be the best option to get the most velocity, flat trajectory, and effective range.

I don't know anybody that makes a good bullet for that, though. I wonder if you could get by using a .358 rifle bullet like the Speer 180 FN. Most of the pistol bullets don't have a very good ballistic co-eff. and probably aren't tough enough for the velocities of the .357 Max.

Kart as long as the bullets fit the bore diameter I'd think that using rifle bullets would be fine. Good thought on the 357 Maximum, that cartridge didn't even come to mind for me.

Breez, it must be a straight walled case also. No bottleneck cases. Les

Thanks for all of the comments. Just to clarify

1. The DNR rules do not mention anything about being a straight walled case. Exact verbage from the DNR website is:

The rifle must fire a cartridge that meets the following specifications:

A) fire a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger;
(B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and
(C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.


Some cartridges that will be legal include the following:

.357 Magnum
.38-40 Winchester
.41 Magnum
.41 Special
.44 Magnum
.44 Special
.44-.40 Winchester
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.480 Ruger
.475 Linebaugh
.50 Action Express
.500 S&W

2. I have taken 2 deer with a Super blackhawk in .44 mag and bought a Marlin 1894 this spring.

I am just interested in trying something a little different.

Any other ideas?

You mention necking it down to .358. Necking down .416 Rigby case would result in a bottleneck shaped case, right? Doesn't it have to be a straight walled case to meet the new Ind. regs.? I don't think this would meet the requirements.

I've been thinking about this too and haven't come up with any great ideas. .357 Maximum may be the best option to get the most velocity, flat trajectory, and effective range.

I don't know anybody that makes a good bullet for that, though. I wonder if you could get by using a .358 rifle bullet like the Speer 180 FN. Most of the pistol bullets don't have a very good ballistic co-eff. and probably aren't tough enough for the velocities of the .357 Max.


Hornday has 3 bullets listed in both the .357 Max and the 358 Winchester areas of their reloading manual. A 180 and 200 grain SP and a 200 grain RN

.357 Max seems like a heck of a good proposition for such things.

Personally, I'd use one of Marshall's WFN profile bullets. I've killed deer with them in a .357 revolver, and they ought to be devastating at rifle velocities.

Think you'd have an easy 150 yard trajectory and that ought to cover quite a bit of deer hunting.

Of course you could buy a .44 mag carbine and just be done with it. What's the point of deer hunting if you can't spend money that you don't have to, though??? :p

Thanks for all of the comments. Just to clarify

1. The DNR rules do not mention anything about being a straight walled case. Exact verbage from the DNR website is:

The rifle must fire a cartridge that meets the following specifications:

A) fire a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger;
(B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and
(C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.


Some cartridges that will be legal include the following:

.357 Magnum
.38-40 Winchester
.41 Magnum
.41 Special
.44 Magnum
.44 Special
.44-.40 Winchester
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.480 Ruger
.475 Linebaugh
.50 Action Express
.500 S&W

2. I have taken 2 deer with a Super blackhawk in .44 mag and bought a Marlin 1894 this spring.

I am just interested in trying something a little different.

Any other ideas?

I guess you're right. I looked it up at this website, too:

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/about/wildliferules06.pdf

Well, now....allowing bottleneck cartridges does open things up quite a bit. May have to rethink things, here.

yeah i think that the .357 max in a contender carbine would be great.... good heavy hard cast bullet would hit like a sledghammer.

I live in Indiana and own 200 acres in Southern Indiana where we have a horse farm.
I have hunted the property for years a having 70% wooded and 30% corn, beans and hay have taken many dear with various calibers.
You might want to look into Buffalo Bore ammunition to find great loads in .357, 44 magnum and .45 colt as well as others.
I love their handgun loadings for dear and I notice a big difference in performance over factory loads.
Good Luck.
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#9mm

All of this is why I have put so much time and effort into offering custom rechambering and and loaded ammunition for the 357 Maximum. I do hold an 06 license and am listed as an "ammunition manufacturer". I load the 180 gr. Remington JHP and Hornady 158 gr. XTP at the two primary loads...

Both the T/C Contender and N.E.F. single shot are the two main choices in 357 magnum to have rechambered as the 357 Maximum...

A

So what can you tell us about the ballistics of the loads you sell?

Really, current shotguns with rifled barrels and sabot loads have all the range and accuracy of the .44 Rem Mag, and other pistol cartridge rifles. So there's not much advantage to using those kinds of rifles.

What we're looking for here is something that can really stretch the range out to 200 yards and maybe beyond. You know, a "bean field" gun. How do we come up with the most effective shooting tool and yet stay within the limitations of the state law?

Here is a list of bullets and the "average" velocity that has been achieved with the various N.E.F. single shot rifles that we have rechambered from the 357 magnum to the 357 Maximum....

125 gr. Hornady XTP - 2,700 fps....

158 gr. Hornady XTP - 2,400 fps....

180 gr. Remington JHP - 2,200 fps....

200 gr. Beartooth - hard cast - flat nose - gas check - 2,040 fps....

Some barrels run a little higher in velocity and some run a little lower but the velocity figures are about average....


If you need serious knockdown power, get one of the H&R Ultra slug guns. It has ample power and a good enough trajectory to make 200 yard shots with relative ease. I shoot the 3" Federal Hydra Shok load at a shade over 2,000 fps. from H&R Ultra and when sighted in 2" high at 100 yards, I can go high on the front shoulder at 200 yards and rest assured that if the deer is not standing in his same tracks as what he was when I pulled the trigger, you can bet he won't be no more than a step or two away. From an accuracy standpoint, I have never seen one of these slug guns that would not at least keep 3 shots right at an inch or less at 100 yards when fired from a bench. the Hornady Y2K is also an excellent load as is Winchesters Partition Gold....

A

How about using a .25 WSSM case and opening the neck for .357 bullet? You'd have to trim the .25 WSSM down by .10 inch. I think that would get much more case capacity than cutting down the .416 Rigby case, though.

But, maybe the fat case and the big bore would cause "overbore" or something, I don't know. You'd be limited in the rifle actions that would be able to shoot the fat WSSM case, too, I would think.

....sounds like a big fat Bain and Davis round, which is based on the 44 mag. case necked down to .357...

But like the state rules and regulations are, the case has to be limited to one that is "straight sided" and not a "bottle neck" case design....

A

There is no restriction to bottlenecking. Only Bulet Diameter and Case Length. Period.

The 44 Bain-Davis is legal.
The 38-40 is legal.
The 44-40 is legal.
The 458 Socom is legal.

All are bottlenecked.

FWIW, I shoot a 180gr 78% meplat .358 WFN at 1780fps+/- out of my .357 Rossi 92.

Works just fine.

How about using a .25 WSSM case and opening the neck for .357 bullet? You'd have to trim the .25 WSSM down by .10 inch. I think that would get much more case capacity than cutting down the .416 Rigby case, though.

But, maybe the fat case and the big bore would cause "overbore" or something, I don't know. You'd be limited in the rifle actions that would be able to shoot the fat WSSM case, too, I would think.


Kart29 - I had the same thought after a little more perusing of a recent reloading manual. It looks like the WSSM cases have a larger body diameter than the .416 Rigby.

Not familiar with overbore though.

How about using a .25 WSSM case and opening the neck for .357 bullet? You'd have to trim the .25 WSSM down by .10 inch. I think that would get much more case capacity than cutting down the .416 Rigby case, though.

But, maybe the fat case and the big bore would cause "overbore" or something, I don't know. You'd be limited in the rifle actions that would be able to shoot the fat WSSM case, too, I would think.


Any tools available to estimate the performance of such a cartridge?

Select-a-load can do a lot, but the powder data is old. You give it a case volume, max CUP, bullet weight and BC and gun weight and it will pick an "optimum" powder and velocity and give ftlbs recoil. I don't rememer where the link to the program is (shareware) but I can zip up the DOS exe if you need it.

I have no idea about how to estimate the performance. I'm a handloader but know next to nothing about wildcatting. I have read stuff about big cases and big bores and something called "overboar" creating ineffeciency in performance. I guess that means you pack alot of powder in the case but it doesn't make the bullet go much faster.

Too much of too slow of a powder means a good chunkof the powder/pressure curve gets blown out the barrel.

I'm certainly not an expert, but I think that given the maximum case capacities and bullet BCs that come into play I don't see anyone wildcatting a (practical) 300yd round out of the new specs.

I have a spec sheet drawn up for a 38-284, 44-284 and 45-284 that meet the maximum case length criteria of 1.625" if you guys think that it might be something worthwhile....

A

The law was passed with the intent that currently manufactured handgun rounds already in use in Indiana would be used in the rifle platform.
At least that is how it was presented to the lawmakers when it was submitted for approval.
High power rifle hunting in Indiana will not be coming any time soon and the more modified ammunition and rifle platforms hit the field the sooner the DNR will modify the law.

I would not be surprised if they modify the law in the next season or two being more specific on what is allowed out in the field.
But for now enjoy.

I honestly wouldn't worry about it too much 5150.

The simple fact that custom rounds require custom guns will keep a practical limit on the number of modified platform/cartridge guns down.

Likewise, the DNR specifically expressed that its intent was to maintain the "short to medium range" Ballistic Profile - i.e., doesn't really matter what cartridge/platform so long as you can't really make it perform significantly better than a High End Slug Rifle shooting SSTs.

Is it possible that someone will figure out how to put a high BC .357 Spitzer outset far enough in a fat bottleneck case to get .308 class performance? Maybe. But that's not going to be a gun or project that the average Hoosier Hunter, or worse, a Slob deer shooter, will get into.

The problem children will still be problem children and will shoot whatever is "easiest" to get - and that won't be a wildcat.

Several other states besides Indiania have changed the laws as well because they too have basically the same restrictions and as such, I don't think that it will be long before at least 1 if not 2 ammunition manufacturers will pick up on the 357 Maximum once again and start offering factory produced ammunition for it...

The 357 Maximum has a case length of 1.605 and can be loaded to shoot any bullet that the 357 magnum shoots but, it offers it's best performance on deer with 180 gr. bullets. Ballistics are nearly identical to the 35 Remington and it's killing power may not match any of the belted magnums but it has taken more than it's share of deer...

The bullets shown below are the 357 magnum on either side with the three in the middle being 357 Maximum...

With velocities that can be achieved from 22" rifled barrels like the N.E.F. single shot with 180 gr. bullets, 200 yard shots would not be a problem, especially since most guys are not going to be taking a shot at even half that distance....

A


http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/100_0108.jpg

There used to be a wildcat .44 mag necked down to .357 the name escapes me just now. It may be a simple rebarrel job on a Marlin or Winchester that is in .44 mag. I don't know if it would be worth the time and trouble to do.

Maybe a .444 or .45-70 trimmed and necked down would make more sense. If you had money you could neck down .577 brass and figure out a rifle to put it in.

This sounds like a cool project for a Ruger #3. Thing is I really don't think you'd get an incredible gain in velocity, but you may do better than what anyone else has. It would sure be different!

Regards,
Gene

Gene,

the 44 necked down to 38 caliber is the 357X44 Bain and Davis........ I offer this one in both the Marlin and Winchester...

With some of the spitzer bullets that are now available in 44 caliber, the 445 Super Mag. or shortened 444 Marlin case to 1.625" would make a good round as well and would work in the less costly N.E.F. single shot or a couple of the lever actions....

A

I like the B&D. It's a great cartridge - and you could theoretically mod a Win 92 clone to shoot it.

But even still, the .357 Max and B&D are only on par with the SST for max effective range, so the advantages are simply in shootability/practice/carryability over the 12ga. (and that's why I like them)

I suppose you could chamber a Win 1894 for .357 Max - but Ilike the 92 better... ;)

Assassin:
Do you have a web site? I'd like to check out what you offer.

Thanks on the Bain and Davis thing, I was wracking my brain for this and I guess a bunch of other guys posted while I was typing my reply.


Regards,
Gene

Gene,

PM sent....

A

Thanks for all of the info from everyone. I contacted Z Hat. He has already been contacted from someone about a cartridge based on the 243 WSSM and had a drawing for a cartridge. He calls it the .35 SSS. He estimates that performance should be close to or a little better than the .358 Winchester.

Any tools available to estimate the performance of such a cartridge?
.243WSSM & .25 WSSM brass is over worked when necked up.
Neck has alot of stress marks. Have tried both of them you get the same case capacity as a .358 WIN. We have designed a cartridge using a WSM case with more case capacity. 358 GRANT Already have the reemer, forming dies, and reloading dies.

The first two that came to my mind are the .357-.44 B&D which has been mentioned a few times, and the .357 AMP (AutoMag Pistol), which is more or less a rimless .357-.44 B&D.
But it sounds like you are on the way to a decision.

I've toyed with the idea of a 357AMP carbine for a while (I have a .357 AutoMag, so already load it). Maybe the new regs here in IN will give me the push to do it.
I was just hoping someone else would do it first, so I could read or hear about it, then not have to bother. Wildcatting the lazy man's way!

If anyone wants the .358 GRANT for Indiana's deer season.
JGS made our reemer and Hornady made our forming and reloading dies. They both have drawings of the cartridge.

This is a picture of the WSSM case that has been necked to .357 with the case length meeting the proper requirements....


http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/35-wssm.jpg

This is a picture of the WSSM case that has been necked to .357 with the case length meeting the proper requirements....


http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/35-wssm.jpg
We tried two different lots of 25 WSSM brass and one lot of 243 WSSM brass plus even annealed it and it still showed cracks in the necks. Olso necked it up in four stages .280, .308, .338, &.358. Gave up on that and took 300 WSM case and cut it down made body longer, 40 degree shoulder,and shorter neck than the WSSM. WSSM necked up has same case capacity as .358 WIN we have increased that. And still meet the specifications of the new laws. Look at Nosler 225 gr ACCUBOND .423 BC & Sierra 225 gr SBT .348 BC . Where there is a will there is a way!

D Grant,

what type case neck expanders did you use in opening up the WSSM case necks? I had problems until I started using the Hornady Eliptical neck expanders....

A

D Grant,

what type case neck expanders did you use in opening up the WSSM case necks? I had problems until I started using the Hornady Eliptical neck expanders....

A
Assassin I used Redding tapered expander. But even with the brass untouched you could see little marks in the necks. That is why I tried annealing it. That is why we tried 3 different lots. Shipped the brass back to Winchester and they sent me ccoupons for the price of the brass after they looked at it. That was 5 months ago. They might of had a problem that they fixed. But that made us make something a little better with a little more work forming brass, but I think it will be worth it.

When expanding necks like this, this is the process that I go through -

1 - trim neck .020...

2 - heavy chamfer and deburr...

3 - anneal case neck in lead pot - 900 degree temperature for 13 seconds. Inside and outside of case neck is coated with Motor Mica to prevent lead from sticking. As soon as the case neck is remover from lead, it is dropped in a bucket of cool tap water...

4 - a hornady eleptical expander is used in 6.5 caliber, 7mm, 308 and then 358 to expand the neck...

By annealing the case necks this way, I can do 50 pieces and "might" lose 1-case due to case neck splitting....

A

When expanding necks like this, this is the process that I go through -

1 - trim neck .020...

2 - heavy chamfer and deburr...

3 - anneal case neck in lead pot - 900 degree temperature for 13 seconds. Inside and outside of case neck is coated with Motor Mica to prevent lead from sticking. As soon as the case neck is remover from lead, it is dropped in a bucket of cool tap water...

4 - a hornady eleptical expander is used in 6.5 caliber, 7mm, 308 and then 358 to expand the neck...

By annealing the case necks this way, I can do 50 pieces and "might" lose 1-case due to case neck splitting....

A
Assassin don't get me wrong I like the idea of the WSSM case , we worked with it for about 2 months. But my bad results with them drove me to create something a little better. It will be a little more work (4 steps of forming dies and fire forming to get the 40 degree shoulder) but that is the fun in it to me. Everything I did with the WSSM looks like it will be at or just above a 358 WIN. The 358 GRANT will be the next step up. The guys at Hornady realy liked it.

Mr. Grant,

I completely understand...

I'm glad you got it to work out for you and glad that you got "something a little better"...

I've been handloading for 38 years now and have designed and developed my own line of cartridges for over 20 years now and enjoy every minute of it...

I do a lot of work with the 307 Winchester and 444 Marlin case for use in the T/C Encore and have a lot of fun making more useful cartridges for these great single shots. The great accuracy gain is what make it more worthwhile as well as the increase in velocity over the original chambering...

If I can offer any advise or suggestions that you think might be helpful, don't hesitate to ask. I'm always willing to help and willing to learn from others as well....

A

Mr. Grant,

I completely understand...

I'm glad you got it to work out for you and glad that you got "something a little better"...

I've been handloading for 38 years now and have designed and developed my own line of cartridges for over 20 years now and enjoy every minute of it...

I do a lot of work with the 307 Winchester and 444 Marlin case for use in the T/C Encore and have a lot of fun making more useful cartridges for these great single shots. The great accuracy gain is what make it more worthwhile as well as the increase in velocity over the original chambering...

If I can offer any advise or suggestions that you think might be helpful, don't hesitate to ask. I'm always willing to help and willing to learn from others as well....

AAssassin thank you after the rifles are done and I start working up loads I will keep you posted. It should not be long. Our gunsmith recevied the reemer last week and Hornady shipped the dies today, should hav by Thursday.

Mr. Grant,

please keep us posted.......sounds very interesting....

A