This is just out of curiousity, but I just saw a rifle (on a website) with a damascus barrel... is this safe?

I remember always reading on boxes of shotgun slugs (you know how bored you get in a stand) not to fire them in damascus barrels and I've handled a couple of old Remington doubles with damascus barrels (and case hardened recievers... they were gorgeous).

All I want to know what the safety thing is. Can damascus steel handle the pressure, and if it can't why would someone make a damascus barrel (is it just an automatic wall-hanger?)? Is it a matter of pressure or the hardness of the steel?

Part of the problem is that because the way damascus was put together it can have flaws in the barrels that can't be seen from the outside. Those flaws will not stand up to the pressure, especially from modern smokeless powder.

Some old shotgun barrels (usually on double barreled guns) were formed from wires that were wrapped around a mandrel and forged and welded into shape. This leaves a visible wire pattern in the barrel and such are referred to as "Damascus Barrels". Guns made with Damascus barrels are significantly weaker than fluid steel barrels, and more prone to corrosion and failure due to the welds along the length of the barrels. Damascus barrel shotguns should be examined by a qualified gunsmith and proof tested before use, to ensure that the barrels are sound before using the shotgun.

There are some folks still shooting damascus barreled shotguns with light loads of black powder, but most smiths don't recommend it.

It's the flaws that are the problem and it's worse in old guns as corrosion can get into the flaws and worsen the problem. On the other hand, good Damascus is strong enough for modern loads and many oldsters have been re-proofed recently with the brutal British proof loads.

The problem with your old Damascus guns is, do you take a chance and shot it without re-proofing, which is very foolish in my opinion, or have it proofed and take the chance of loosing a heirloom?

The art of making Damascus died out by WW I. Probably there's someone somewhere who can make it now, but it won't be cheap. It never was.

Bye
Jack

Are some modern made damascus steels being made, although I haven't seen any barrels made from teh stuff, supect it could be done...would be purely a style issue, and doubt it would be as strong as normal barrel steel. Have been some tubes covered in a tube of decorative damascus...an expensive decoration, nothing more.

Old damascus (I guess new as well) hides faults...with so many joints, and only one needing to be weak, it's always a risk to shoot old damascus doubles (esp. as you can't insepct all of the outside and have no clue what's under the top rib, bottom rib, or the barrel joint). I will shoot good solid damaswcas doubles, but with lite BP reloads...and if I ruin a gun or lose my fingers, accept that it was my choice to risk it.

Lots of damascus knife blades on the market. Custom knife makers are jumping on the damascus bandwagon. Here's a place you can go to get blanks and kits for lots of knives and lots of damascus blades and blanks.

http://www.texasknife.com/store/s-pages/TKS_MainframeStore.htm?TKS_BufingPolishingWhls1.ht m~smain

Interesting! But, some clarification is needed. First of all the barrels made from wires is a "Twist" barrel and is a walking Pipe Bomb......even when new.
Then we have the various high quality Damascus barrels made from various combinations of iron rods and steel rods. ....Rose, Crollie, Etolie (Star). Many were Nitro proved. Then we have the various tapers on the barrels. Some of the light barrrels have a reduced thickness about where the forearm is (as much as 1/2 the wall thickness of the chamber). In the higher the quality (and most expensive), we find very little slag in the barrel. I have yet to see one unwind in the twist, but rather ruptured in hunks. We had a barrel full of them at WW.....most were the cheap twist barrel from Belgium.....and many had mud (or something ) in the barrel when fired. Then we have to worry about the deph of any corrosion in the inside of the barrel. Vey little shows up on the expensive guns that were taken care of....and most is just etching that can be shallow polished out.
So......we are faced with many problems when it come to deciding if we will shoot a Damascus gun.
I have a heavy walled gun with "Star" barrels. It can be seen in the Tech Notes at Dixie Slugs. The barrels were ordered from England and the gun put together by C H Fox. It was designed for a waterfowl gun and weighs in at 10 pounds. The standard load is 4 drs of FFg and 1 1/2 ounce of shot and the barrels have a slight taper to 32".
All this boils down to a few things:
Always use blackpowder!.....Have the barrels checked by a qualified gunsmith that understands these guns (very few around!)....Stay away from "Twist" barrels!.... Use no smokeless powder loads, even those that have only 7,500 psi as the smokless pressure curve is farther down the barrel.
The thing you never hear about is how dangerous some of the early non-damascus barrels really were...."Cast Iron" no less!
Just be very careful!........Regards, James

James stole most of my thunder but that's alright, less typing for me. Thanks Mr. James.

I'll second Mr. James on the use of "black powder only" (and that means real black powder, not the fake stuff!) and "Have the barrels checked by a qualified gunsmith that understands these guns (very few around!)" Absolutely, most gunsmiths of today operate within folklore and much of what they may pass-on to you concerning vintage barrels is likely unintentional mis-information.

What Mr. James says is absolutely true, you need a gunsmith that has intimate and legitimate knowledge of damascus gun barrels. While "proofing" is good to "prove" a believed to be "good" bbl, if the bbl condition is unknown, proofing can turn a beautiful vintage gun into scrap iron in less than a second. I always suggest you start with NON-DESTRUCTIVE testing FIRST! Modern QC equipment can quickly test gun parts for a relatively low cost (usually under $80 for a rifle receiver, double shotgun would likely run a little more because of the increased time and material being tested. Various NDI (Non-Destructive Inspection) methods are available that can spot corrosion, flaws, slag inclusions, porosity, ect. If you find any potential issues during the NDI, you know that proofing will likely cause catastrophic failure and thus it can be avoided which still leaves you with a good non-firing "wall hanger".

*in reply to Bob's post, buyer beware when it comes to modern damascus knife blades. There are a lot of fakes on the market lately - last gunshow I worked, a fellow vendor had several for sale that he had no idea were fakes. I've worked with metals all my life and you have to know what you're looking at to spot the fakes but once you know, they are rather easy to spot. The damascus appearance can be created by several methods such as oxidation cutting, acid etching, electro-chemical etching, electro-carbon etching and so forth. Follow-up processes usually involve staining and alloy depositing. These processes can create the appearance to an untrained eye and many people never find out they've been taken for a ride.

I weighed two 12 gauge barrels, both doubles, on the kitchen scale, which may be off a couple of ounces.

Browning B-S/S, 28", a strong modern shotgun. 3lb. 9 oz.

Neumann Bros damascus, 30", Belgian, made in the 1900-1910 era. A better class of Belgian gun, with double underlugs, Greener crossbolt and engraving. 3 lb, 5 oz.

Bye
Jack

*in reply to Bob's post, buyer beware when it comes to modern damascus knife blades. There are a lot of fakes on the market lately - last gunshow I worked, a fellow vendor had several for sale that he had no idea were fakes. I've worked with metals all my life and you have to know what you're looking at to spot the fakes but once you know, they are rather easy to spot. The damascus appearance can be created by several methods such as oxidation cutting, acid etching, electro-chemical etching, electro-carbon etching and so forth. Follow-up processes usually involve staining and alloy depositing. These processes can create the appearance to an untrained eye and many people never find out they've been taken for a ride.

Boy Mark that's certainly true in this day and age. I dabbled in knife making a little, just with standard steels. I'm pretty much of a tyro at knife making. I do like the looks of Damascus blades, but getting one by a reputable maker is out of my price range. Some of them are real pretty, but I like the easy care of stainless in the field.

Honestly, I don't care for SS blade at all. I've got some good stock that does hold an edge a lot better than other SS alloys but it still doesn't match a good carbon steel blade. When properly borwned, a carbon blade won't give you any gripes in the field as long as you don't leave it wet.

Considering this is going off the thread topic, I'll start a new one in the General forum.