Realize this has probably been asked before and I DID spend lots of time looking back at older post... but here is my question, with descriptive background first.

A widow is planning an RV trip across the country and wants a Personal Defense weapon for inside the RV. She is in her mid-sixties, about 130# (petit). Has no experience with firearms.

Choice #1 S&W Model 36 in .38 Special with PD ammo.
Choice #2 .357 revolver with 2" barrel and PD ammo.
Choice #3 12 pump shotgun with folding stock and pistol grips, loaded with PD or Buckshot loads. (I've read the FTI report)

Either will require training on her part but she intends on keeping the firearm within the RV, always. One consideration for the shotgun is she will be crossing state lines. She will have little opportunity to continue training after initial phase (and I doubt the interest either).

I would welcome everyones serious input and especially those based on experiences

I would go with a shotgun in this case if she were only planning on keeping it in her RV.
A 20 gauge is good medicine for short-range intruders and loaded with 00 buck or 4 buck it will serve her well.
Teaching her in the long run how to properly handle a firearm is you responsibility if you are going to help arm her.
With out a lot of hours at the gun range a handgun is not as reliable as a shotgun is under stress fire situations.
After she has become competent with the shotgun I would then move her on to a handgun.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/youth/model_11-87_sportsman.asp

5150 gave you good advice, but If your not going to use this as a carry gun a medium frame or large frame revolver in 357 with a four or six inch barrel loaded with 38 special Speer gold dots is much easier for most gals to shoot and to learn to shoot accurately. Another advantage is that anyone breaking in faced with a bigger more seeable gun is much more likely to leave without having to be shot.

I agree with the 20 Ga. Shotgun and buckshot, for a woman that hasn't had any practice. Not many people is going to argue with a shotgun, and if they do, they will wish they hadn't.

Can she handle a shotgun? Not everyone can....

If the only modification is cutting the buttstock to length, that will help a bunch.

Absolutely go with the shotgun!

As to MikeG's question, anyone who can handle a 357 should be able to handle a pump gun just fine, and probably better in a stressful situation.

A pistol grip shotgun can certainly be difficult to aim, but inside an RV, who needs to aim?

Nobody likes to be faced with a muzzle you can put your finger in, and that sound of the slide racking!

Since I am a Full time RVer, here is my method.

If in the front, I have access to my CZ .357 Sig.

If in bed there is a 16 Ga. 870 with a 18 1/2" barrel loaded with #4 Buck along side the bed, that I can sweep the whole bus with.

You don't want to have to travel the full length of the RV to get some protection.

One thing more, When traveling on the Hi-ways, be sure you are in compliance with the laws of the state you are traveling in. A friend got stopped and was arrested in Minnasota for having a loaded gun in his night stand at the back of his rig. The officer would not acknowledge that his RV was his home while he is traveling, only when it is parked for the night.

I agree with the 20ga and suggest 7-1/2 shot. A face full of that will stop most anything and there will be less collateral damage. I have an H&R youth model for just such happenstance. It's the safest firearm on the planet, always loaded, can't be accidently discharged, and only requires the hammer to be cocked to be ready for anything. Also, it's much shorter and handier than any other shotgun around.

If the single shot feature is a stumbling block then I would look for a self-loader, but that is much more dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced shooter.

For a handgun choice I'd say a LadySmith is the perfect choice, loaded with 38spcl+p. Easy to control, multiple rounds and always close.

As far as practice goes, the lady can stop and shoot in every national forest. There's always trash around, and defense shooting has trash for a target so it's an easy analog.

The best idea has already been posted: have both.

I hate to buck the majority but IMHO would favor a 4" .357 revolver over the shotgun. Would be very easy to sweep the camper in tight quarters and very controllable loaded with 6 rounds of .38 Special. Light in weight, it can be easily carried either hidden or in the open both in and out of the camper and quickly accessable. Often, the sight of any firearm is enough to deter thoughts of mischief and that's probably preferable over having the perp DOA in a puddle of blood on the camper floor and half a dozen LE personnel inviting you to go "downtown" to explain.

Tight quarters kind of rules out anything other than a pistol. Otherwise, I'd recommend a sword for an older woman who doesn't know firearms. And along that line, why give her something that might scare her to shoot? How about a Ruger .22? She could belt it for walks in snake country and believe me, if she gets 4-5 shots off at an intruder inside an RV with one, he'll leave, which is what she's after. Keep it simple.

Appreciate the inputs, all of em.
First step is to see WHICH weapon she can handle the best. i e RANGE TIME!
If she can handle the SG, a pump in 12 or 20 will probably be the choice. Former state Attorny General recommends same from legal pt.

I agree with Griz. A 20guage loaded with #6 OR #7 1/2 is an excellent choice. The light construction of most RVs brings over penetration into play. My 2 cents would be to get a less expencive single shot or pump and modify it to 20in barrel.

I might just pick the new Taurus Judge now, in .410. It'll be a handful, but a pistol packing 5 rds...would do the job rather well.

I might just pick the new Taurus Judge now, in .410. It'll be a handful, but a pistol packing 5 rds...would do the job rather well.

I agree. The new 5-round Taurus Judge can shoot .45 LC or .410 shotgun shells.

But if she's going anywhere in Yankeeland, she'll probably be violating numerous concealed carry/vehicle firearms laws in every state she travels in. Some have mandatory jail sentences for convictions and she might wind up in prison. God bless the South. Most of our southern states have more "liberal" gun transporting laws, but even those are getting more restrictive.

You know, nobody brought that up 'til now, but that might be the most important issue of all. A shotgun would be the best choice in that case. But keeping her Judge unloaded, in a closed case, out of her reach, would meet restrictions everywhere. And they're gonna pick on an old lady? (Plus, she's got snake medicine for hiking...)

Back to a Shotgun.
It was the only answer that seemed logical to me in this case.

My wife fits that description, except for the widow part, and she has her own .38 snub nose which she feels comfortable with. She can load it, she can pull the trigger, she can cock the hammer, and she can flat shoot that baby. For her, having a weapon that fits her hand and which she feels comfortable shooting is the main thing. Not the greatest firepower, but a couple a rounds in a vital spot would get my attention. I load it up with (6) 158 gr plus p hollow points and she keeps it where she can get to it. She would never use a shotgun, too big, too awkward, and in her hands it would not be the best choice.


Jim

Most 130 pound women with shotguns? She would be in the minority. Rather she feel comfortable in using the weapon than being afraid of it. Even a small .22 or .25 auto would be better than nothing.


Ordnance

I don’t see a 130lb person not being able to handle a youth model 20-gauge semi auto shotgun.
I see 60 – 90 lb children shooting them all the time with good results.
One needs to be proficient in whatever firearm he or she chooses regardless and if traveling with it needs to comply with the state laws he or she happens to be in at the time.
Having an un-loaded handgun in a secure wrapper not readily available is not going to do you much good and expecting an elderly person to quickly get the gun and then load it in an emergency is probably not going to happen.
A shotgun is the easiest most efficient weapon for beginners and the youth models are light and fast in tight quarters.
The 20 and 12 gauge shotguns loaded with 00 buck are one of the most destructive killing devices at short range devised by man and will put a person down right away with a load to the chest.
Practice with any weapon she chooses is paramount in either case.

You know, nobody brought that up 'til now,. . .

See posts #1 and #7. The law will have to be a consideration in one form or another. The only reasonable step to take is to try to remain in compliance with the Firearm Owner's Protection Act, and in some states, like New Jersey, even that may not help before you've expended a lot of lawyer money. The weapon, therefore, needs to be unloaded every time she sets out for a new destination and kept in a locked container, not including the glove compartment, that she cannot access readily during a traffic stop.

Try several guns at the range. See what she's most comfortable with. Make sure she can safely load and unload and store the piece without risking an unintended discharge. I tend to favor the shotgun idea for the inexperienced shot for all the reasons cited above and because they are more likely to point and hit instinctively with the longer tube. However, unloading a pump or a self-loader may be less safe than handling a single shot or double-barrel is for her. You'd need to test this.

I think it completely depends on the Gal....if she's in decent shape, and decent health, there is no reason on earth she couldn't learn to handle a handgun in a reasonably short length of time....the handgun I would pick is a S& W .38 spl. hammerless......this is plenty of power for 15 feet, and all she will need, and be able to handle easily...I also would recommend jacketed hollow points, at Standard velocity.. one day at the shootin range and she would be good enuff for just about anything she would encounter, if taught properly....teach her to get it out and put all 5 in a pie plate at 15 feet.....and while your at it, get her a concealed carrry permit...this takes care of most of the legalities, as most police organizations will honor another areas carry permit, and even if they won't, it's good credibility ....and it shows that the Gal has had some training and isn't just some wacko witha gun

this can all be accomplished within a week or ten days with a little persistance, and she will be relaxed and become confident with the small lightweight low recoil weapon.

IMO, she could obey all of the laws written on carrying a firearm in a vehicle and end up a victim or she could have the firearm loaded at hand and end up a survivor. If the perp is in her vehicle she has every right to protect herself. Whether or not she has committed a firearms infraction can be determined in court at a later time so long as she is the one still breathing. Have gone through traffic stops numerous times crossing the state line and have yet to have LE enter my vehicle looking for firearms. Customs on both sides of the U.S./Canadian border the same. They all asked their questions then waved me on. Could have driven a BMG across these borders with no one the wiser. Of course we should obey the law but there is also a time to exercise common sense. For a woman travelling alone in a RV, common sense looks pretty good.

Also, it is very tempting for a perp to grab at a shotgun as there is much more to grab onto. Once the firearm comes into view, retreat is no longer an option. Didn't intend to get on the soapbox.

Flair gun. MUST remember - no shooting inside motorhome.

Ol Outlaw...don't try that around IL or WI let me tell you. Around here, only the criminals are allowed to carry guns. (Read again for best understanding...)

And I still wonder about the choice of a long gun in an RV. Those are tight quarters. Nor would I use anything bullet-wise that could penetrate those thin walls. Paper thin. So some sort of shotshell or Glaser Safety Slug or the like is about all you could use. Imagine her missing and killing someone two campers down.

Go to your local gun store and handle a youth model pump or semi auto 20 gauge.
I think you may find it very easy to handle in tight quarters. These are models intended for very small people overall all about the same length as an m4 if not shorter and much lighter
Over penetration is greatly exaggerated with shotguns and I would not be concerned with a 20 gauge loaded with 4 buck or 4 shot.


Be careful about cross state carry.
Rv carry>
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USRVCarCarry.pdf

Who honors your permit.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USReciprocity.pdf

Given that the vast majority of states now have decent CCW laws on the books I would say the first step is to apply for a CCW if feasible. That piece of paper would go a long way in protecting her legally. More and more states are including reciprocity in their CCW laws and having one would justify the carrying of a gun in her RV somewhat.

As to the firearm to be carried...

RV have tight quarters meaning it can be difficult to maneuver a full stocked shotgun however it need not be ignored. Her sole purpose should be staying alive and defending her property. setting herself as far as possible from the door in her sleeping area a shotgun can be used across the top of the bed very efficiently. However a handgun would be better if caught out in the drivers compartment. The Mossberg 500 HS419 Home Security shotgun equipped with a folding stock might be the best compromise.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/mossberg.jpg

Loaded with 6 rounds of Sellier and Bellot (5 balls of 000 buck) it would cetaintly be enough to end a confrontation. The Taurus is not a bad idea if her hands are big enough to handle to size of the grip.

I like 5150's suggestion. I picked up a carton of Federal H1324B at a gun show one time. It's a reduced recoil 12 ga. law enforcement load of #4 buckshot, specifically intended to limit over-penetration. It is easier on the shoulder, too, which helps a smaller person. Still hurts if you are shot with it.

I understand the pointability concerns with the shotgun, but believe they are exaggerated in the mind's eye. Everyone I know who's been through Gunsight's pistol instruction then taken their shotgun class has concluded the shotgun is the preferred go-to defensive weapon indoors or out (at modest ranges). This is despite all their extensive pistol training. That may be unexpected to hear, but, based on everything from greater psychological intimidation to far fewer shot placement errors with no follow-up shot normally required, the shotgun demonstrates quite a bit of authority. Yes, the gun should be short. An 18" barrel and a relatively short 13" military pull stock is desirable from that standpoint, but a folding stock is not necessary to manipulate the thing. Training remains more important than gun choice.

It should be kept in mind that the RV interior is a tunnel. Thermopylae comes to mind. If you position yourself at one end, pretty much nothing can get in that you can't shoot at before it gets to you. Any window above the bed becomes the weak point for being awakened by a break-in and still finding time to come to your senses and grab the gun. That window can be reinforced with mesh or replaced with polycarbonate to slow an entry attempt down. Always sleep oriented to provide a clear shot at the door(s).

My years at Quantico taught me several things about firearms and the human instinct to survive.
One of them was in order to best compliment the natural human instinct to survive one must first build ones ability to handle a survival situation.
Being able to act instinctually to a situation witch may come suddenly without any warning is paramount to your survival. The ability of the individual regardless of practice and time at the range will be different from person to person.
Knowing your limitations in a situation and adapting to meet those limitations is also key.
Handguns are terrible man stoppers and relying on one regardless of caliber is a fool’s bet. It will take multiple shots in most cases.
Grandma needs to figure out what her own limitations may be and adapt accordingly.
She may find she is unable to handle a firearm with any proficiency and decide not to carry one.
With all that I believe a little youth model 20-gauge semi auto would best accommodate most of the needs here. A compromise if you will.
As said before, a shotgun loaded with buckshot is the most devastating short-range small arm ever devised by man.
Unclenicks observation about Gunsite is on the mark and I would add that after many hours of formal training given your pick of an entry or short range weapon most go for the shot gun at other facilities as well. Blackwater is one that comes to mind for me.

If I was going to advise someone with limited experience to carry a shotgun, it would not be a pump or auto. It is too hard to unload them safely. Why not a 20Ga hammerless coach gun?
Andy

Exactly what I was thinking. 5150's life experience in this world (where do I sign up for training?) convinces me that the shotgun is the choice. But I'd go for a double. Nice and simple. The rest test all of us from time to time...not something an older woman should endure.

I think a double barrel or single shot shotgun would be wise to some degree. I only was concerned about perceived recoil for an elderly woman.
A semi auto 20-gauge youth model has little recoil and with somewhat limited and basic instruction can be very easy to manipulate for a first time user.
However choosing a double or single if recoil is not an issue would be a good choice to. I like those little coach guns.
My pistol-packing grandma carries a .38 special and is very proficient with it.
She refuses to carry anything else because that’s what she learned on and that all she needs.
Does that mean she is less armed because she won’t carry a .45? No.
She can hit a 6-inch target at 50 feet with it all day long. She can’t hit paper plate with a .45 at 30 feet. Recoil is an issue for her.
As for life experience, yes I have some but that is not the point here and I try not to get into that too much. I only express my opinion for what I think I would tell someone in a similar situation. There can be many different opinions on one particular subject and they all can have merit. I have been wrong before and adjust as needed.
Blackwater does now offer civilian combat training.
Gunsite and many other civilian combat firearms training facilities are popping all over the place now and with little research and a few dollars they will be glad to meet your needs.
I have personal experience with Blackwater
Links:
http://www.blackwaterusa.com/
http://www.gunsite.net/

Personally, I'd feel better for her if she just went ahead and took a CCW class in her state and get her license. If the teachers are any good at all, they would be able to help her feel comfortable handling different types of guns, she'd get a really good grasp on what to expect from her choice of firearms. If the class is associated with a firearms dealer she may be able to shoot a couple of different guns to help her make a more educated decision.
It would also make more information and resources readily available about how to travel with firearms.

I agree with most above posts, but for practical reasons I think the shotgun with a standard stock fitted to her is the best. The pistol grip can be a little harsh, especially with "Wal-Mart" on sale loads. If she travels to Canada, she can take the SG, but not the hand gun.
Pumps tolerate lack of maint. a little better than an auto, but I prefer semi-auto Beretta or Rem, both in 20 gauge. Either of the above will require lots of practice loading and unloading for safety's sake.

You should not rule out the old Coach Gun style sxs in 20" barrels. Two shots very fast, simple look-n-see for loading/make safe. Twelve or 20 with any combo of shot she is comfortable with. (or Over/Under)
You can get them in shorter barrel lengths, but in Canada the barrels are measured a little different. US accepts 18" from bolt face where Canada says 18.5", which is probably determined by metric measurement. Pay attention to over all length before cutting off stock. I carry an old Stevens 520 pump w/18" barrel and a 12g SXS hammer gun with 20" barrels.
Another tip. When you decide which gun to go with, get it cut to fit and put on one of those very soft recoil pads. She will thank you for that, especially with the lighter shotguns.
Hope it's not too late to contribute. I just noticed the original post was in August 07.
T-Bird
Sorry 5150, you said it all already. Guess I just did not read that far down before I answered. I think you got it right.
T-Bird

Its hard to kill with pepper spray... at least give her the option, firearms aren't always the answer... travelling with handguns is almost always go to violate somebody's law... and whats the point of carrying an unloaded firearm, you might as well have a brick.

I think you can still get a mossberg 20 ga for under $250... much less if you shop around pawn shops...