Hi All,

I sure could use some help here.

I don't know much about overpressure situations. My new-to-me M44 Mosin-Nagant was exhibiting a "sticky bolt" while shooting some Russian surplus ammunition from 1986.

It has no problem shooting heavy ball from Hungary made in 1951. The action is very slick using that stuff and I can reach over and operate the bolt handle with no problem (I'm a lefty). The ammunition is copper washed steel.

The Russian stuff is light ball. It has a laquered case mouth and primer, and the case is not laquered. It is copper washed steel as well.

When I first fired it I could hardly get the bolt open. I then came to the internet forums and found that the Mosin-Nagants have "sticky bolt syndrome." I followed the steps to correct this.

While it helped somewhat, the problem still existed.

I took a closer look at my spent cases. This is typical of what I found on the Russian stuff.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/M44/Overpressure2.jpg
At first I thought these were a couple scratches, perhaps manufacturing defects.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/M44/Overpressure1.jpg
I then noticed that the case is cracked, with light visible through the crack.

The rifle is OK. It's sturdy, if not purdy :)

Can someone tell me if this is a sure sign of overpressure? I don't know what else to look for; I've never seen an example of a flattened primer.

The bands which go around the cases look to be from some sort of annealing process. Looks like other heat treated metal I've seen.

Also, this ammo blows moisture of some sort back. Is this indicative of anything?

Overall, what exactly am I looking at gents? Over pressure, or is this typical of Russian stuff?

Personally, I think hard extraction + random case ruptures = overpressure.

The case code is "60" at 12:00 and "86" at 6:00 for those who may be wondering. I do not have a lot number.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Josh <><

Unfortunately I can't see your photo's as my computer just reads them as "X".

A normal fired primer looks much like an unfired primer with a dent in it from the firing pin and maybe a little flat spot around the dent with tool marks from the bolt face. A flattened primer looks pretty much what it sounds like. The primer pocket is filled with primer and has tool marks and a dent in it. It looks like you filled the primer pocket with silver putty and put in machine marks and a firing pin dent.

The other problem you may encounter is when a primer flows back into the firing pin hole. this can cause sticky extraction. It looks like the primer was pushed out of the pocket and has a dent from the firing pin. I've mostly seen this in severely under loaded cartridges. They also get the blow back you describe.

It may not be a case of too much pressure, the cases could have a harder alloy that may have become brittle.If this is in combination with a chamber that is a little on the large size that may be why you're getting split cases. This might acount for the "blow back" you are seeing, this coupled with the laquer on the case may also account for the sticky extraction.

It can be dificult to determine the exact cause of these things from any distance, and I wish I could see the photos as a picture is better than a thousand words. Frankly, if the ammo isn't working out for you trade it off for some other stuff. Try some commercial loads and see if the same problem exists. It really is only a problem if it occurs with a variety of ammo.

Regards,
Gene

Josh I wouldn't use that ammo in your gun. Sticky bolt's usually donate to much pressure. I'd go back to cartridges that were working OK.

Josh, Steel cased ammo degrades fast compared w/ brass cased ammo. Ammo in a sealed spam can will last for years.
60 is the manufacturer. Here is a reference site. As Bob has said, I would not use this ammo, even though MN's are prone to have tough bolts. The swelled shoulder is a big issue. Measure a few cases of Russian, and compare them to the Hungarian. Jim
http://mosinnagant.net/r2ssia.asp

Thanks All,

So far as I know zinc is not involved. The cases are advertised as copper washed steel with red laquer sealant.

I do not have the pic of the SPAM can it came out of... but I do have some other pics for ya'll:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/M44/flat1.jpg
Head-on primer view, comparison fired and unfired.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/M44/flat2.jpg
I'm attempting to show the primer depth here. I don't know if this is normal.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/M44/Dsc00026.jpg
Case length comparisons.

Is it just me or does the OAL of the Russian stuff look to be shorter than the Hungarian heavy ball? Photos don't do it justice; the unfired Russian case is definitely shorter in length to the shoulder and to the mouth.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/M44/bulge.jpg
Circled is the bulge which will not let me chamber one of these spent shells.

The bulge is present on every fired case I've examined, and is the reason it's not extracting properly. The laquer has very little to do with it and there can't be any cosmoline left in the chamber anyway, after the cleaning I gave it over the course of two days. Remember, this involved a 20 gauge brush and drill as was recommended.

I was told that the burn rate can change over the years. The ammo is moved around and while it may start out as granules or flakes, the continuous movement gradually makes it finer. Does this make sense?

Any more comments? It's only doing this with the Russian light ball.

Thanks,

Josh <><

They do look to be different lengths. That is odd to say the least! It would explain your issues. I would break down the Russian ammo and use the bullets only!
Some rifles prefer heavy ball to light ball, but you have an issue I have never seen. The primer is bulged, so break down or trash the ammo. Jim

Thanks guys.

I think I'm going to go with my gut and not fire this stuff after firing my Hungarian heavy ball.

That stuff works very well - it lets the action work almost like there's not a round to be extracted.

Since I polished things up the bolt feels almost like a stock Rem 700 (I know... blasphemy). The Russian stuff I bought may or may not be safe, but it doesn't feel safe and it's really not fun to shoot when I'm dreading working the bolt.

Thanks all... you've been a great help.

Josh <><

Josh, Pull the bullets, I'll buy them!
I have 2 91/30 and an M44, all are smooth. Jim

I would take the advice you have received here and at the Urban Survival Forum and not use the stuff.

Rest assured, the cracked cases and excessively-cratered/backed-out primers are NOT normal. Ditch that junk.

the laquer makes the case look shorter.that unfired primer is seated awful deep.and the heat treatment goes have way down case.I have some russian ammo probable made during ww2 when they did not wash the acid out of the powder very well and aet the case and the bullets went finished.they went from factory into the line.dont use them