I seem to be having all kinds of issues with my rechambered 284. I developed a load using 140 gr barnes xlc bullets with 53.5 gr of IMR 4350, went out into the desert and fired a couple of rounds at 25 yards to make sure it was getting on paper. I then went to 100 yards and fired three rounds,two rounds hit 1 3/4 inches high dead center, both rounds were almost in the same hole, the third round was 2 inches above the other rounds and about a half inch to the right. I went down four clicks in elevation and two clicks to the left , fired three more rounds, one round hit an inch high dead center, the other round was dead even with the aiming point but about 3/4" to the left another round hit even but to the right, I fired a fourth round and it hit dead center but 4 inches high, I was about ready to bury the rifle in the sand so I took a fifteen minute break. Thinking that the rounds that hit low are legitimate I went up four clicks in elavation, fired three rounds, one round hit dead center one inch high, another round hit even in elevation but about 3/4" to the left, and the third round hit dead center but about an inch higher than the other ones. This was my best group but I wanted to go a little higher, I wanted to have all the rounds hit 2 to 2 1/4 " high . I decided to check to see where each round hit after I fired, I should have done that in the first place instead of checking after shooting three rounds. I went up four clicks in elevation, fired one round, it hit dead center but 4" high, the next round hit about even with the first round about 1/4" lower, nice two inch group, I dropped five clicks in elevation, fired one round, must have pulled this round cause it hit about an inch low and about a inch to the left. I had two rounds left so I fired them, th first round hit dead center about 1" high, the last round hit 1 3/4" high and about 3/4" to the right. I had five rounds left but I wanted to try out my new first time chronograph, the extreme spread was 26 fps, so the load itself appears ok, I checked my scope and everything is tight, barrel tension is also ok, I could slide a piece of paper all the way down to the reciever. I am going to take this rifle as is to Oregon for a blacktail hunt in two weeks, where I am going the shots are no longer than 100 yards at most, I feel that as bad as this rifle is shooting I will be ok. I called Barnes and their ballistic person advised me to try to seat the bullets a little deeper, they call for an OAL of 2.800, these loads are at 2.850 OAL, the powder is already compressed I don't think I can seat them much deeper, Anybody out there got any ideas.

Sounds like your scope is the culprit.

I find that if I mess with the windage or elevation on my scopes it takes a shot or two for it to "settle" it back down. Usually the second 3 shot group I shoot after adjustments to the scope gets alot 'tighter'. Sounds like you adjusted your scope an awful lot...sounds like me when I get frustrated while zeroing in :)

...went out into the desert....

How long did you wait b/w shots? You may have barrel heat problems if you shot one after another quickly, or after 15 shots just started to flintch as you squeezed the trigger and that made the groups go all over the place.

I find that if I mess with the windage or elevation on my scopes it takes a shot or two for it to "settle" it back down. Usually the second 3 shot group I shoot after adjustments to the scope gets alot 'tighter'. Sounds like you adjusted your scope an awful lot...sounds like me when I get frustrated while zeroing in :)



How long did you wait b/w shots? You may have barrel heat problems if you shot one after another quickly, or after 15 shots just started to flintch as you squeezed the trigger and that made the groups go all over the place.

I waited about two minutes between shots.

I find that if I mess with the windage or elevation on my scopes it takes a shot or two for it to "settle" it back down. Usually the second 3 shot group I shoot after adjustments to the scope gets alot 'tighter'. Sounds like you adjusted your scope an awful lot...sounds like me when I get frustrated while zeroing in :)



How long did you wait b/w shots? You may have barrel heat problems if you shot one after another quickly, or after 15 shots just started to flintch as you squeezed the trigger and that made the groups go all over the place.

I think I may have found the problem, I had trouble finding the correct seating depth for the bullets that I was using,I played around with the seating depth earlier this evening, I took a once fired case and blackend the bullet with a match and then I put it in the case and chambered the round, I removed the case and noticed that the bullet had not moved much, I repeated the process and measured the OAL of the cartridge, it was 3.110" it appears that my rifle has a very long throat, the cartridges that are giving me problems are 2.850" OAL, apparently the bullet has a long jump before it touches the rifleing, I may have to live with this problem because the rifle was origionally chambered for 7mm-08, I don't think the magazine will allow me to seat the bullets out much farther, I will work on that later.

Freddie - here's another (rhetorical) thought: when was the last time you checked your bedding screws? I ask because that is one area I tend to over look. When I perfected my 165's in the .30-06 a few weeks ago, the first group was all over the place. Seating was consistent, scope was tight, I wasn't jittery, breathing was normal and measured. I couldn't figure it out. Just for grins I checked my bedding screws and wouldn't you know it - both were loose. One by 1/16" turn and the other by a little more. I tightened them with a torque gauge and the rest of the groups made sense! I don't mean to insult you (I felt silly with my experience level), but it's one area that is not checked often enough.

Freddie - here's another (rhetorical) thought: when was the last time you checked your bedding screws? I ask because that is one area I tend to over look. When I perfected my 165's in the .30-06 a few weeks ago, the first group was all over the place. Seating was consistent, scope was tight, I wasn't jittery, breathing was normal and measured. I couldn't figure it out. Just for grins I checked my bedding screws and wouldn't you know it - both were loose. One by 1/16" turn and the other by a little more. I tightened them with a torque gauge and the rest of the groups made sense! I don't mean to insult you (I felt silly with my experience level), but it's one area that is not checked often enough.

Thanks Sniper, I will check them out.

I've made the same oversight that Sniper did. Stock screw are definitely something that need checking.

Bye
Jack

I've made the same oversight that Sniper did. Stock screw are definitely something that need checking.

Bye
Jack

Thanks Jack, would the way that I position the rifle on my bench set up make a difference? I have an adjustable front rest that I purchased from Cabellas and I use a sandbag for the rear rest, if I happen to not position the rifle in the same exact position when I fire it will that make that big of a diffference, I will check the bedding screws, I can very easily slip a piece of paper between the barrel and the stock, maybe a little bit to easy.Thanks again, Fred

It's important to keep as many things as possible consistent when shooting benchrest. Think of it as an experiment. You want as many controllable variables to remain as consistent as possible. The only variable you cannot control is the wind and other external factors. So, position of your forearm rest is important - not critical - but another controllable variable. I position mine at the swivel stud. DO NOT lay your barrel on the sandbags, use your stock.

If your problems do not clear up, try using a "throwdown" scope. I always keep one handy for just such an occasion. I also use my wallet (usually very thin) to slap around the scope after making any adjustments. This settles the crosshairs as Bulldawg mentioned without wasting any ammo.

If your problems do not clear up, try using a "throwdown" scope. I always keep one handy for just such an occasion. I also use my wallet (usually very thin) to slap around the scope after making any adjustments. This settles the crosshairs as Bulldawg mentioned without wasting any ammo.

I'll have to try that. Thanks for the tip.

You haven't mentioned barrel cleaning. Maybe you have copper in the barrel?

Fastfreddy - you mention this is a rechambering for a .284 Win. You might want to check with the gunsmith to find out if he made it with a long throat, or leade, which would require seating the bullets out further than normal trying to get near the lands for a close standoff.

If this is a magazine rifle meant for hunting purposes, you should let the max magazine length dictate how far out to seat the bullets and learn to live with the best bullet/powder combination. If a single-shot, go ahead and seat the bullets out to whatever length required for best accuracy.

I'll suggest something a little different...the bullet. Of all the different bullets I've shot...if I had to name one that was the most inaccurate, I'd have to say the XLC followed by the Grand Slam. Now this is in my rifles some may differ but I wouldn't rule it out. Try out some 140 Grn Sierra Pro Hunters..they're an accurate bullet that would do a fine job on blacktail.

I'll suggest something a little different...the bullet. Of all the different bullets I've shot...if I had to name one that was the most inaccurate, I'd have to say the XLC followed by the Grand Slam. Now this is in my rifles some may differ but I wouldn't rule it out. Try out some 140 Grn Sierra Pro Hunters..they're an accurate bullet that would do a fine job on blacktail.

I have some 140 sierras on hand, they are not the boatails which I used to use in my other 284 that I blew up, I won't go into details on how that happended. Also have some 150 gr nosler ballistic tips, I will work on the problem later, will be leaving for the Oregon blacktail hunt on the 7th.

Fastfreddy - you mention this is a rechambering for a .284 Win. You might want to check with the gunsmith to find out if he made it with a long throat, or leade, which would require seating the bullets out further than normal trying to get near the lands for a close standoff.

If this is a magazine rifle meant for hunting purposes, you should let the max magazine length dictate how far out to seat the bullets and learn to live with the best bullet/powder combination. If a single-shot, go ahead and seat the bullets out to whatever length required for best accuracy.

He used a standard reamer conforming to SAAMI specs. I believe it does have a long throat. I first used the cleaning rod approach to find the seating depth, put a bullet in the chamber, insert the rod, mark it at the end of the barrel, then close bolt, re insert the rod, mark it and then measure the distance between marks, came up with 3.100" oal. That did not satisfy me, it was just to much length, so tried placing a bullet in a fired unsized case, put it in the chamber, close bolt, remove case and bullet, bullet got pushed back a little bit but rifleing marks were hardly visible and only on one side of the bullet, smoked the bullet and got almost the same results. Got frustrated and seated the bullet to a OAL of 2.850, thats where I am at now, the origional test with the cleaning rod was probably legitimate, it probably does have a long throat, will have plenty of time this winter to play with it.

I have found that many rifles don't like the barnes X bullets. After throwing lots of money down range with poor results I finally decided that there are far too many well constructed bullets out there and switched to other makes.

Sadly, I tend to agree, Akbushrat.

The bullet shelf is loaded with partial boxes of Barnes bullets that the rifles just don't seem to digest as well as the Hornady's and Sierra's. Shame, because I really wanted to use them.

If the bullet you are using is a bevel or boatail base, combine that with the short neck on a 284 then seat it out as far as possible you will get a bad bullet wobble at ignition especially if the leade or freebore is any where oversize. M1Garand suggested my favorite bullet for my 7mm/06s. If you have a 22 inch or longer bbl that 284 case plus the freebore begs for more powder. If you are not at the end I would suggest going higher. I am presuming something I shouldn't do that you have a good bolt gun you are using and it is bedded. I had a friend that had near the same problem as you but on a 40X Remington in 25/06 the only bullet that would touch rifling was a 117gn round nose, and when it did you could remove the bullet with your fingers. That rifle shot .300 groups at 200yds, with 117gn sierra spitzer boat tails. Fred the owner had to go to the very high end plus a little with IMR4350. It did not show pressure signs.

If the bullet you are using is a bevel or boatail base, combine that with the short neck on a 284 then seat it out as far as possible you will get a bad bullet wobble at ignition especially if the leade or freebore is any where oversize. M1Garand suggested my favorite bullet for my 7mm/06s. If you have a 22 inch or longer bbl that 284 case plus the freebore begs for more powder. If you are not at the end I would suggest going higher. I am presuming something I shouldn't do that you have a good bolt gun you are using and it is bedded. I had a friend that had near the same problem as you but on a 40X Remington in 25/06 the only bullet that would touch rifling was a 117gn round nose, and when it did you could remove the bullet with your fingers. That rifle shot .300 groups at 200yds, with 117gn sierra spitzer boat tails. Fred the owner had to go to the very high end plus a little with IMR4350. It did not show pressure signs.

The bullets have a boatail but not as extreme as a sierra or nosler. I am using 53.5gr of IMR 4350,the Barnes people advised me that if once fired cases expand .0005 then I have reached my maximum, the 53.5 gr load expands the cases to .0005, at 54gr the case expanded to .0007, at 54.5 gr I had a hard time opening the bolt and the case expanded .0008, I dropped down one grain and that is the load that is giving me the problem, I am going to check the stock screws, the load averages 2877 fps and the barrel is free floating. I was just checking some reloading records from about 6 months ago, I have a thompson contender pistol that was giving me the same problem, I called nosler bullets and talked to one of their ballistic technicians, he told me to seat the bullets out farther and see what happens, guess what , the gun shoots 1 1/2 groups all day, I wonder if I have the same problem with this rifle. Thanks for the help.

Sounds like your scope is the culprit.

Maybe / maybe not - but if it was me, I'd sure want to rule it out....

I had a problem very similar to yours a while back. Tried all kinds of load combinations, before a suggestion from a board member hit the nail on the head. Scope went back to the manufacturer for a warranty fix.

Optical parallex will sure produce some consistently CRAZY groups. Been known to make a guy consider a perfectly good rifle for kindling.

Maybe / maybe not - but if it was me, I'd sure want to rule it out....

I had a problem very similar to yours a while back. Tried all kinds of load combinations, before a suggestion from a board member hit the nail on the head. Scope went back to the manufacturer for a warranty fix.

Optical parallex will sure produce some consistently CRAZY groups. Been known to make a guy consider a perfectly good rifle for kindling.

The warranty is expired, the scope is about 12 years old.

When I read your initial post, I was puzzled by all of the scope changes you were making. While many of the suggestions above are perfectly valid - check the scope, bedding screws, seating depth, bullet type, etc, perhaps you just needed to fire a few more groups without changing anything. If you fired several groups you might find whether or not it is grouping consistently in the same place. A three shot group that is not a tight group is a lousy thing to use to start making scope adjustments. From what I could understand, you were adjusting for the widest shot, not the centre of the group.
Fire a few groups, and if you want, use the same backer target for all, and see what kind of groups you are getting and use the common backer target to see what overall shape of the group.