So, I just started reloading for my .223 NEF Handi-Rifle.

I'm using brass that is once fired in my rifle.

I'm using the Lee collet neck sizing die.

Prior to sizing, the ID of the case neck is about .225. After sizing, with the die adjusted to 1 1/4 turns past touching the shellholder, the ID of the brass is right at .223. Is this adequate for holding bullets that are .224 in diameter? I think I read in my Lee Modern Reloading II manual that a neck ID of .001 under bullet diameter is about the maximum neck tension you can get. I've read about polishing down the OD of the mandrel of the collet die to size the neck to a smaller ID. But any difference greater than .001 between case neck ID and bullet OD just results in the neck being resized when the bullet is seated and no increased neck tension results. Does that sound right? I think a .223 case neck ID is about perfect for holding a .224 bullet, right?

Anyway...I have read here about there being problems getting consistant neck tension using the collet neck sizing die. I have a Lee Factory Crimp Die and am debating on whether or not I should use this to crimp the case mouth after seating the bullet in brass that has been neck sized with the collet die. Anybody ever used this process or have any insights into it?

How do you know if you are acheiving consistant neck tension when neck sizing brass? I can measure the ID using calipers or inside micrometer. Any other ways?

Thanks

I think you're good to go, especially for a single-shot.

In my experience, you can get greater neck tension with 0.002" - 0.003" under bullet diameter, but this is much more important in revolvers where you don't want bullets creeping out and tying up the gun under heavy recoil.

By the way - information for everyone - the inside jaws on a pair of calipers may or may not be accurate to 0.001." An inside micrometer is really the only way you'd know for sure.

Try some loads and see..... both with and without the FCD.

I think engineers and general machine shop practices assume that calipers are accurate +/- .003" to .005". I only have a cheap pair of calipers and I find in "shadetree practice" I can be more accurate than that. I know it wouldn't do for ISO9000 certifiication or anything, though.

Still, if i measure a bullet and it comes out to .224 and the same tool measures my neck ID as .223, I feel confidant that I'm getting pretty darn close to .001 interference fit.

I'm taking some machine shop classes at community college right now and have access to some pretty good measuring equipment. Maybe I will take a case there and verify my at home measurements. That would be an interesting experiment. I love to play with precision measuring tools.

I have found that as the brass "ages" it tends to bounce back more. It wont' stay at .223 but rebounds to closer to .224 I took the mandrell out of the collet die, put it in my 3/8"drill and spun it with some 200 grit emery around the mandrell where the necksizing actually takes place. I removed just anough materiel to get to .221-.222. This ensures a good, tight fit between the neck and the bullet, even on 5-6 times fired brass.

RJ

"...the ID of the brass is right at .223. Is this adequate for holding bullets that are .224 ... I read in my Lee Modern Reloading II manual that a neck ID of .001 under bullet diameter is about the maximum neck tension you can get."

Wellll, yeah, it seems you've got it right. ??

There is a learning curve to using the Lee collet die. You must follow the directions and apply at least 15 pounds pressure at least twice turning the brass each time. If you can't push the bullets in once seated then you have enough neck tension.

You also need to anneal your brass at least every fifth firing to get consistent neck tension with the Lee collet dies.

Annealing is easy, just set your cases in a shallow pan of water about a half inch deep. Heat the necks to just red and tip them over. This makes the necks dead soft and easyh to size in the collet sizer. Some of my cases have 25 firings on them using the collet die.

Adding to my last post: Only use the emery in the small area where sizing takes place. I like to feel a very, ever so slight "drag" when pulling the shell back over the mandrel. (And I do aneal after 5-6 loadings like faucettb said.)

RJ

Thanks for the help. I'm curious, though, about what faucettb says about not being able to push the bullets in once seated. Is that how you estimate neck tension?

When you say "can't push the bullets in once seated", what exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean "can't push them in without hurting your thumb", or "can't push them in by forcing the tip against a hard surface", or "can't push them in with a hydraulic ram". It's somewhere between extremes, I know. But, other than measuring the interferance fit, I don't know how to measure neck tension, exactly.

I have read here about annealing necks for use with neck sizing dies and reducing the mandrel diameter. Good stuff and I will look into that if I'm not getting enough neck tension.

Still, I'm wondering if the neck tension is somehow determined to be insufficient, if the Factory Crimp Die won't solve that problem easier than polishing the mandrel or annealing the brass. I doubt I'm the pioneer when it comes to this idea.

Durn Kart your just trying to confuse me and I'm easily confused.

When I started using the Lee collet dies I got poor results. Some cases held a bullet and some would allow the bullet to be pushed in under thumb pressure.

I was used to using standard fl dies and they always had about the same seating pressure. I went back and re-read the directions on the collet dies to see why I was getting such odd neck tensions.

What I found was that not only did you have to apply a lot more force at the bottom of the die stroke you had to turn the case once or more and apply that pressure once or twice more to obtain any consistancy in seating pressure.

I now size with a goodly amount of pressure, turn the case size again, turn the case and size again with what I hope is consistant hard pressure.

You shouldn't be able to push the bullets in with pressure from your thumb or even a moderate pressure from pushing the case against the bench top. The idea here is that there is enough pressure holding the bullet so it won't back out during recoil or when it hits the mouth of the feed rail when being chambered. I really don't know how to estimate that tension, but it has to be enough to reliably hold that bullet during handling, loading and feeding.

Like I said there is a learning curve to using these dies effectively or there was for me at least. Annealing has always been one of my reloading steps and is doubly important with the collet neck sizing dies.

:D

Sorry man! I wasn't intentially trying to confuse anybody. I tend to have the effect on people sometimes though. Sorry.

I've been reloading for 35 Rem using both a FL die and a Lee Loader (basically a neck sizer I think). I've found that using either of these sizing methods, it's not too difficult at all to push a seated bullet deeper into the case just by pushing the point of the bullet against the tabletop. So, if the neck tension I've always gotten with FL dies is too loose, why should the collet neck die be any different? See my dilemma?

I guess the important thing I'll have to look at is whether I can notice a significant difference from one round to the next. Hopefully I won't end up with half a box of cartridges with the bullet stuck way too deep in the neck. If I find I'm getting some bullets that are too loose and some aren't I'll just smack `em all with the FCD and be done with it.

I set my dies up for 0.002" of neck tension. I too have taken the Lee collet dies apart and made the mandrel slightly smaller to get this size. Piece o'cake.

I cannot move the bullet into or out of the case with just my hands.

Spinning the case and working the lever twice with a Lee collet die is a good idea. Works for me, at least.