A probably stupid question, but can anyone tell me where the terminology "ball ammunition" came from?
Four years in the military & I never questioned the term's origin...
At least I'm fairly sure it doesn't mean it's masculine.

"Ball" is a throwback to the days of muzzleloaders.

Lead balls were the standard loading and were sometimes altered to include buckshot. Hence, the loading was then called buck and ball and increased the close range effectiveness of military smoothbores. Take care...
Oberndorf

Lead balls were the standard loading and were sometimes altered to include buckshot. Hence, the loading was then called buck and ball and increased the close range effectiveness of military smoothbores. Take care...
Oberndorf


well then can you explain the term ball powder. I always thought it ment not cordite. but cordite was not around back in the muzzle loading days and the term ball ammo only became widley used after cordite.

It's little balls :)

Seriously, it's little spheres or slightly flattened spheres. There's also stick and flake powder, which resemble (short) sticks, and flakes.

Cordite is of course a very long stick and no, I don't have any idea how it got it's name.

well then can you explain the term ball powder. I always thought it ment not cordite. but cordite was not around back in the muzzle loading days and the term ball ammo only became widley used after cordite.

Different things.

"Ball powder" describes a type of powder (which is different due to it's manufacturing method). Some other common methods/types are "flake" and "extruded".

I would think Cordite would be considered an extruded powder (although it wasn't chopped up into short kernals like today's extruded powders). I also think Cordite was smokeless, or as many of the early "smokeless" powders were- semi-smokeless. But there were several versions of Cordite as the years passed.
I think the burning rate was controlled by the diameter of the strands (smaller diameter being faster burning).

I've heard Cordite was considered pretty hot burning, and it would give quick gas erosion of barrels. What I have wondered is if it was really that hot burning compared to current powders, or if it was just hotter than the then-common "black powder" and the barrel steel was easier to erode than today's (?).

"Ball ammo"- as said by others- describes the projectile it is loaded with/for (originally: ball, buck, buck and ball, etc; then later: ball, tracer, incendiary, etc).

Thanks, guys! I love this site! As usual, I got my question answered & learned a few extra things that hadn't even crossed my foggy little mind...

It's little balls :)

Seriously, it's little spheres or slightly flattened spheres. There's also stick and flake powder, which resemble (short) sticks, and flakes.

Cordite is of course a very long stick and no, I don't have any idea how it got it's name.

I know the ins and outs of powders but the name ball powder is actualy used by the military to describe any non cordite smokless powder. so going back to the early days there was the 303 british with a 220 grain round nose projectile on black powder. then they came out with a cordite round. the mk7. it had cordite and a 174 grain pointed projectile . then came mk8 or 303 ball ammo. thats because it had ball powder. the name has nothing to do with the projectile.

there is cordite and neonite.
now for barrel erosion. cordite was very corosive and it ate away at the metal . when a barrel thats seen alot of cordite is used with ball powdeer the ball powder erodes away the metal thats been chemicaly changed by the cordite.

interesting topic

I don't think the .303 Mk. 8 was loaded with ball powder. Most of the nitrocellulose loads were loaded with a tubular powder with a burning rate similar to 3031 or 4895 IMR powder. The Z headstamp was actually a sideways N, for Nitro.

Cordite is a double based smokeless powder, with both nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin, with vaseline added to tame it a bit. Later cordites were cooler burning than the first lots that made it's reputation for burning barrels. Cordite from a Mk. VI cartridge is .027" in diameter and 1.4" long. It's been out of the cartridge for 30+ years and may have shrunk a bit.

Much more on the .303 British.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British

Bye
Jack

I know the ins and outs of powders but the name ball powder is actualy used by the military to describe any non cordite smokless powder. so going back to the early days there was the 303 british with a 220 grain round nose projectile on black powder. then they came out with a cordite round. the mk7. it had cordite and a 174 grain pointed projectile . then came mk8 or 303 ball ammo. thats because it had ball powder. the name has nothing to do with the projectile.

there is cordite and neonite.
now for barrel erosion. cordite was very corosive and it ate away at the metal . when a barrel thats seen alot of cordite is used with ball powdeer the ball powder erodes away the metal thats been chemicaly changed by the cordite.

interesting topic

Nada.

"Ball" or "Spherical" (trademarks used by Winchester/Olin and Hodgdon, respectively) designations did not come about until true ball powders were developed following WWII.

Before that, it was stick, flake, or sheet-cut powder.

I do believe that first ball powders were made by recycling old single-base WWII surplus powders, and adding nitrogylcerin and heavy deterrent coatings to increase the energy content, and control the burn rate, respectively.

Strongly suspect that if the military had any particular name for smokeless powders, it was simply nitrocellulose, or something of that nature.

Ball powder was developed a bit earlier, and was used in WW II for carbine and pistol ammunition. Hatcher's Notebook, page 329. I don't beleive anyone outside the USA used it.

Bye
Jack

Well, hmmm, I'm on a roll today :rolleyes:

I gotta find where my information came from. It may have been from Phil Sharp's Complete Guide to Handloading (which was my dad's and he has it again), and I probably confused post WWII with post WWI.

Guess I better stick to opinion posts for the rest of the day :p

I am pretty darn sure, though, that the military would have been using stick/flake powder post-cordite, and for quite a while before true ball powders would have been invented. Let's leave it at that for now!

Did anyone but the Brits and Commonwealth countries use Cordite? Hatcher doesn't mention Cordite in any US military ammo.

Bye
Jack

Some right, a lot wrong, some just plain silly beyond belief!

The term "Ball" was originally used to distinguish between a solid, then round, bullet and special purpose ammunition , such as buckshot, buck and ball or foraging (birdshot).

When elongated bullets, still in muzzle loaders, became the norm, the old terminology began to distinguish a solid bullet from other special types, such as clean-out and explosive bullets.With the advent of fixed, modern type ammunition, the term "ball" still denotes a plain bullet, distinguishing it from other special types: tracer, incendiary, spotlight, blank, guard, etc. It is no more, or less, than a term to specify that ammunition is loaded with a particular type of bullet! It can be considered an archaic term.

So far as "Ball" powder is concerned. This was developed toward the end of WWII by Winchester as a speedy way of re-working deteriorating lots of standard powders. It continued after the war as a simplified manufacturing method, and to re-process surplus militray powders for the civilian market. "Ball" is a trademark of olin Mathieson Chemical Corp. which is the producer of Winchester brand ammunition. Burning rate of ball powders is controlled by deterrent coatings and rolling the ball shaped pellets to a somewhat to quite flattened shapt to very the web thickness. Hodgdon uses the term "Spherical" to denote the same thing as "Ball", which they cannot use since it is a copyrighted name.

All smokeless powders are variations of the single/double base theme. Single-base is nitrocellulose only, while double-base is combined with varying percentages of nitroglycerine. There are additional materials added to alter burning characteristics to adapt to a specific use. Tubular or solid extrded, Cordite, Neonite, etc. specify a manufacturer, style of grain, etc. It's like asking "What do caliber markings mean"? It depends. The powder grains can be formed by extrusion in rod or tubular form, rolling in sheets, or the special process that forms ball types. The extruded types can be various diameters, and cut to different lengths, all the way from a few thousandths inch long (Bullseye) to quite long (4831, 4064). In some cases the exact same extrusion and formula is used for both extremes. The grain shape, web thickness and deterrent coatings modifying the burning rate for the particular application. Rolled powders are usually cut from the sheet and the grains will be found to be square or lozenge shaped usually. Cut sheet powders are all of European origin, and, I believe, obsolete.

"Cordite" is a particularly British term. It designates a double-base powder which is extruded and cut in longer lengths which are specific to the cartridge, and loaded much differently than other smokeless powders. The grain (Cord) length usually corresponds to the interior length of the cartridge being loaded, from the interior base to the base of the bullet. In bottleneck cases, the Cordite is loaded in the case before the case is formed! Correct me if you have direct knowledge elsewise, but I don't believe Cordite was ever available for handloading since there would be so many complications to its use. It certainly cannot be dispensed through a measure. The only practical way I can see it being sold would be in rolls, like wire, for the loader to cut to length to fit the caes, and then only for staright body cases! All-in-all not very practical. So far as I have ever seen, Cordite was strictly used in Commonwealth countries, and is now obsolete.

Thanks Alk.... feel better about my memory. Must have been the Winchester / Olin process that I recall reading about. I assumed that was the first use ....

Interesting re: Hatcher's Notebook and military use of ball-type powders prior to WWII. Jack, is there a date in his notebook for the first use?

Not terribly important in the grand scheme of things but hey we all like trivia :D

The only use of cordite I know of for hand loading was when making 303-25 from military surplus. take off the 303 projectile pull out 3 sticks of cordite and then resize the case to 303-25 then fit the .25 projectile.
now with the left over cordite. collect it untill you have the enough then chop it into 1/8th" pieces and use it for reloading shot gun and pistol.

those old timers did it hard compared to today.

Hatcher doesn't give a date, but I learned that the date was 1933. Scroll down to Ball Powder. IIRC, the process was developed to re-process surplus WW I (One) powder.

http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/propulsionsolu.html

Bye
Jack

Jack - I can't recall any cartridge loading of cordite other than British ammunition. Interesting question.

Remember breaking a few cartridges down some years ago and finding cordite in them. The strings looked like uncooked spaghetti with a half dozen or so straight lengths in the case. For the life of me, can't remember what the cartridges were, though.

Cordite was loaded in Canada. This is a .303 Mk. IV loaded by Dominion Cartridge. The lower C indicates Cordite, not black. The C was omitted on the later marks. The Mk. IV is the second Dumdum design and has a hollow point.

The most common surplus cordite load was the .303 Mk. VI, which was the last round-nosed .303 military load. Apparently it wasn't used in combat during WW I, and was surplused after the war. One of the old timers here said his grandfather was in the militia and bought home buckets of it, post war.

Bye
Jack