Hi , I am basically stupid so just to get that out of the way right off the get go!!
I have been shooting black powder for about 15 years ( certainly not a top 10 shooter , but enjoy the outings.
I just made a jump to a H R Officers Model 45-70 trapdoor.
I had a friend load me some cases / 45-70 Govt.
457 / 405 gr bullets , hard cast lead. loaded with 55 of 2 F Goex.
I have shot about 25 of these and am getting no where fast . The hits are basically all over the rings . With no clear grouping at all.

I have searched the very excellent information bank on this site but can't find a basic article on loads and getting an initial set up .
My targets are posted paper at 50 yards , I would be happy with just a glimpse of a group on paper however nothing doing .
Is there any thing I can do to get on the right track .
The rifle is in excellent shape , good clean bore and a joy to shoot.
Thanks muchly for any help.
pops

Hi , I am basically stupid so just to get that out of the way right off the get go!!
I have been shooting black powder for about 15 years ( certainly not a top 10 shooter , but enjoy the outings.
I just made a jump to a H R Officers Model 45-70 trapdoor.
I had a friend load me some cases / 45-70 Govt.
457 / 405 gr bullets , hard cast lead. loaded with 55 of 2 F Goex.
I have shot about 25 of these and am getting no where fast . The hits are basically all over the rings . With no clear grouping at all.

I have searched the very excellent information bank on this site but can't find a basic article on loads and getting an initial set up .
My targets are posted paper at 50 yards , I would be happy with just a glimpse of a group on paper however nothing doing .
Is there any thing I can do to get on the right track .
The rifle is in excellent shape , good clean bore and a joy to shoot.
Thanks muchly for any help.
pops


One thing I would do is to slug the bore, measure that and size your slugs at leas .001 larger than the measurement, also you said you were using hard cast, at blackpowder velocities you would probably be better off with softer lead so that it can properly obturate the rifling grooves and hence gain better accuracy

Thanks for the reply , I had thought of the hard cast bullets but as I am new to the cartd. shooting was not sure of the effect they may have .
pops

I'd vote too hard, too small, or wrong lube. Or all three.

I'd vote too hard, too small, or wrong lube. Or all three.


Many thanks . Lubed with SPG??
pops

Pops49
I alo have anH&R Trapdoor rifle.It shoots .458 bullets just fine.I My black powder loads are not very good but I do have some smokeless loads that are worth trying,if you are interested.
Frank

Pops49
I alo have anH&R Trapdoor rifle.It shoots .458 bullets just fine.I My black powder loads are not very good but I do have some smokeless loads that are worth trying,if you are interested.
Frank

Thanks for the response . I am going to try and put together some sort of BP load and do some experimenting. Unfortunately the only ranges I have access to are BP only which kind of limits my choices. I do feel the hard cast bullets re a big part of the problem . Oh well , more trips to the range ..hard to take!
thanks again
pops

ok,
here is where i would start.
first slug the bore and go fore bore dia or .001 larger.
then you will need all the usal stuff drop tube compression die etc.
after casting and pan lubing start with about 55 grs, with the slug just off the rifling.
i use fed 215 primers.
after drop tubing the powder place a wad either poly or vege on top of powder and compress. then put a piece of copy paper wad on top seat the bullet. no crimp.
load say seven and head fro the range.
irish

Agreed with other, too hard, wrong lube, wrong size... plus I'll add to check the rifling twist and make sure it's fast enough for the length of the bullets you're using.

pops:

I used to have an H&R Officer's model and am sorry I sold it. I now shoot 45-90 in an 1877 Axtell Sharps and 45-70 in an 1888 Springfield Trapdoor with Buffington sight.

I remember going through a learning curve, including shooting shotgun patterns rather than groups ( I too was using the wrong alloy). Lyman has two great bullets for the 45-70, the 457193, 405 gr FN and the 457125 500 gr RN - the original Gov't bullet. The 457193 will be a little easier on the shoulder. The bullet needs to be cast with 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 alloy, sized to .458 or .459, and lubed with SPG or Lyman Black gold. The hard cast bullets that you have been using, with the blue lube or whatever it is, are designed for those guys who don't use "real powder".

In the 45-70 I use Remington cases, Winchester WLR primers, and GOEX Cartridge black powder. Cartridge is very similiar to 2F. I Throw 65 grains of powder with a Lyman 55 BP meter having a 24" drop tube. I then place a Walter's .030 veg. fiber wad over the powder and compress it to the seating depth of the bullet, which is just enough to cover the top grease groove.

Loading black powder cartridges is it's own creature, and I don't care how long someone has been loading ammo, when they get into black powder cartridges there is a learning curve. I have gone to the Lyman Mag II turret press in order to hold the necessary six dies. Yes. I said six; the FL size die, neck size die, case mouth expander die, compression die, bullet seating die, and taper crimp die. With a set-up like this you will load cartridges that will perform better than you can shoot.

A good source to check out is Buffalo arms, www.buffaloarms.com (http://www.buffaloarms.com) . They are also very knowledgeable and will answer your questions on the phone. Good luck.

pops:

I used to have an H&R Officer's model and am sorry I sold it. I now shoot 45-90 in an 1877 Axtell Sharps and 45-70 in an 1888 Springfield Trapdoor with Buffington sight.

I remember going through a learning curve, including shooting shotgun patterns rather than groups ( I too was using the wrong alloy). Lyman has two great bullets for the 45-70, the 457193, 405 gr FN and the 457125 500 gr RN - the original Gov't bullet. The 457193 will be a little easier on the shoulder. The bullet needs to be cast with 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 alloy, sized to .458 or .459, and lubed with SPG or Lyman Black gold. The hard cast bullets that you have been using, with the blue lube or whatever it is, are designed for those guys who don't use "real powder".

In the 45-70 I use Remington cases, Winchester WLR primers, and GOEX Cartridge black powder. Cartridge is very similiar to 2F. I Throw 65 grains of powder with a Lyman 55 BP meter having a 24" drop tube. I then place a Walter's .030 veg. fiber wad over the powder and compress it to the seating depth of the bullet, which is just enough to cover the top grease groove.

Loading black powder cartridges is it's own creature, and I don't care how long someone has been loading ammo, when they get into black powder cartridges there is a learning curve. I have gone to the Lyman Mag II turret press in order to hold the necessary six dies. Yes. I said six; the FL size die, neck size die, case mouth expander die, compression die, bullet seating die, and taper crimp die. With a set-up like this you will load cartridges that will perform better than you can shoot.

A good source to check out is Buffalo arms, www.buffaloarms.com (http://www.buffaloarms.com) . They are also very knowledgeable and will answer your questions on the phone. Good luck.

:)Hi , I am basically stupid so just to get that out of the way right off the get go!!
I have been shooting black powder for about 15 years ( certainly not a top 10 shooter , but enjoy the outings.
I just made a jump to a H R Officers Model 45-70 trapdoor.
I had a friend load me some cases / 45-70 Govt.
457 / 405 gr bullets , hard cast lead. loaded with 55 of 2 F Goex.
I have shot about 25 of these and am getting no where fast . The hits are basically all over the rings . With no clear grouping at all.

I have searched the very excellent information bank on this site but can't find a basic article on loads and getting an initial set up .
My targets are posted paper at 50 yards , I would be happy with just a glimpse of a group on paper however nothing doing .
Is there any thing I can do to get on the right track .
The rifle is in excellent shape , good clean bore and a joy to shoot.
Thanks muchly for any help.
pops
Pops, I am 60years old and have been shooting over 30yrs.First take a simple ruler and see if your sights are exactly centered on your rifle. You would be surprized how many rifles i have found new with the sites off center as much as 1/8 inch.Heres the perfect load for 45/70 525 gr.458 bullet, 67 1/2gr goex ffg black powder, .046 veg wad, spg lube, cci large mag primer.If your using soule site remove standard rear site and set soule at zero for 100 yards, up 11/100 for 200yds, up 23/100 for 300yards.Everyone here at the range in Maryland calls me Buffalo bill. because I(m never out of the black. Hope this helps Wayne

:)Hi , I am basically stupid so just to get that out of the way right off the get go!!
I have been shooting black powder for about 15 years ( certainly not a top 10 shooter , but enjoy the outings.
I just made a jump to a H R Officers Model 45-70 trapdoor.
I had a friend load me some cases / 45-70 Govt.
457 / 405 gr bullets , hard cast lead. loaded with 55 of 2 F Goex.
I have shot about 25 of these and am getting no where fast . The hits are basically all over the rings . With no clear grouping at all.

I have searched the very excellent information bank on this site but can't find a basic article on loads and getting an initial set up .
My targets are posted paper at 50 yards , I would be happy with just a glimpse of a group on paper however nothing doing .
Is there any thing I can do to get on the right track .
The rifle is in excellent shape , good clean bore and a joy to shoot.
Thanks muchly for any help.
pops
Pops, I am 60years old and have been shooting over 30yrs.First take a simple ruler and see if your sights are exactly centered on your rifle. You would be surprized how many rifles i have found new with the sites off center as much as 1/8 inch.Heres the perfect load for 45/70 525 gr.458 bullet, 67 1/2gr goex ffg black powder, .046 veg wad, spg lube, cci large mag primer.If your using soule site remove standard rear site and set soule at zero for 100 yards, up 11/100 for 200yds, up 23/100 for 300yards.Everyone here at the range in Maryland calls me Buffalo bill. because I(m never out of the black. Hope this helps Wayne