Im new to reloading, and have spent a ton of time checking the numbers, stats, commercial factory pages, and forums. One question that I cant find an answer to is what is the key (or keys) to finding a successful load for killing (deer and hog)?

Im going to be reloading 223 and 7mm08, and I want to cook effective loads. Is the key velocity, force, or what? One thing that came close to answering the question is some website had the magic number of 1000 pounds of energy being the make-or-break point for a bullet's effectiveness. But if that were the case, no arrow would ever kill a deer.

I dont want the deer to explode when I hit it, but I want it to drop fairly quickly when I put a bullet behind the shoulder. (Hogs... those can blow up for all I care!)

Also, is there a way to find out what type of powder my favorite commercial rounds use? I like Federal Premium with Nosler 140grain ballistic tips for the 7mm08 and would like to replicate that load as best I can.

Essentially I want to load two types of rounds... accurate plinkers and accurate killers. Any tips or advice would be welcome!

That's a broad question so I'll give you a broad answer. A resonable bullet at a reasonable velocity will do the trick. See a loading manual or Hodgdon's website for some ideas of "reasonable".

Welcome to the forum STL. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.

Ken gave you some good advice. I'd check our loadswap section at the top of the page for loads for your cartridges.

What I've found successful is to use a slightly heavy for the caliber bullet at velocities designed for your cartridge, i.e. for the 7mm08 140 to 150 grain bullets at loadings 10 percent under maximum recommended loadings will give you only a 2 percent velocity loss and usually will be very accurate out of most rifles.

For a new cartridge I reloading I usually start near the bottom loads and work up til I get good accuracy. I've found that top velocities are not necessary to kill and usually don't provide top accuracy. Deer will not notice 125 fps difference in cartridge velocity near as much as they will a poorly placed shot. I haven't shot any pigs so can't tell you about them. I have shot a lot of elk, but like a magnum rifle for that use that delivers more energy to such a large animal. I use a Rem 8mm mag with 220 grain bullets at near 3100 fps for that use.

Welcome to the forum.

You asked the 64 million dollar question. There is no broad agreement on how to determine a bullet's killing power. Indeed, it is a hotly debated issue: how much gun is enough gun? You will find tales of deer surviving magnum hits and polar bears taken down with .223 FMJ. Shot placement is the single most important thing. The general rule of thumb in a firefight is to use as much gun as you can control and hit accurately with. In hunting that applies until you get so much gun you are needlessly damaging meat.

If you are hunting in dense woods, where shots beyond 50 to 75 yards are rare, I think you would find this board sponsor's cast 140 grain LFN 7mm bullet, loaded to about 2200 fps at the muzzle would knock whitetails down just fine and without excessive meat damage. If you are to be hunting on the plains and expect to take 300 yard shots, you want to run a reputable hunting bullet with the highest possible ballistic coefficient, and start it out at 2700 fps or so.

The 1000 ft-lb energy number has no magical meaning, as you surmised. It is just a high power shooter's quick sorting rule of thumb. A head shot with a .22 LR with less than 50 ft-lbs of energy will kill a deer. Shot placement is the main thing. I don't recommend using a round that requires quite such precise shot placement as the .22 LR, but you get the idea. You don't need a cannon, but on the other hand, if you already had a .45-70, why would you not use it? Bigger is more forgiving of shot placement error, but also more prone to meat damage with a given bullet style. You need to choose the circumstances and weigh these considerations.

Everyone has given good answers. Energy (of any kind) does not kill game. Tissue destruction does.
A lot of people tike to argue about which brand of bullet is better. Truth is that they all do pretty well FOR THEIR INTENDED PURPOSE. KenK left incomplete "any rifle, of reasonable caliber, firing a bullet of reasonable weight, at a reasonable speed, will kill a reasonable deer reasonably dead." lot of typing but I did want to mention weight.
as to what the factories use- What ever they have on hand(or can get) that falls into a a defined spectrum for that load. It may not always be the same powder each time.

"Book" numbers and broad theory discussions are fine (and fun) but the fact of the matter is that a bullet through the heart/lung area is almost always fatal. Any reasonable load you can concoct in that 7-08 will be fine if you can place the bullet properly. Truth be told, it's hard to put together a really bad load these days - and even the worst of them would make our forebears drool with envy. Really.

You won't be able to buy the powders that factories use. Not because they use "secret" powders but because they use non-standard ones. You can, however, usually duplicate factory performance without too much difficulty using canister (standardized) powders.

Both your cartridges are extremely easy to reload to achieve godd to great performance. the Load Swap section on this board is a good place to start, as is any decent reloading manual. Again, it's difficult to pick a bad recipe, so march forward with confidence.

Welcome aboard and please regale us with your successes.

I can add nothing to the wealth of advise that you alreadyreceived here.
But I can say that the power of your cartridge needed to humanely kill a deer is in inverse ratio to your ability to actually Hunt.
The closer you get,and the ability to NOT arouse,enables you to use much less power to put the deer down quickly.
I was introduced to hunting by my Uncle)a subsistance hunter in his youth).He laughed at his younger Brother who hunted with a Big 300 Savage Rifle.
Find a comfort zone where you spend enough time in learning both hunting and shooting.You will soon find that 1000 foot pounds are not necessary.
Good Luck
Frank

STLBluesFan88, let me add my welcome to the forum.

As stated, you do not need the biggest, most powerful load for your gun. People harvest deer with bow and arrow every year and they can be killed with a .22 Long Rifle cartridge. However, you do want to check the Hunting Regulations for the state you will be hunting in to make sure you can hunt with your .223 because in many states, you need to use a .243 caliber or larger. (Here in KS, the way it is worded is .23 or larger which puts up to the .243) People in states that allow the .223 do harvest deer cleanly though. The key is to use a bullet that is heavy enough to get to the vital zone before it blows up. Also, you do not want to use a full metal jacket bullet since it will not expand. You want to make sure you want to choose a bullet that will open up nicely to cause what is hydraulic shock as it goes through the vital area to make a good clean kill. Your 7mm-08 should work very well out to as far as most people should be shooting at deer sized game.

Thanks for the advice... I appreciate it.

I ran into a problem last night. I managed to hang a case in my resizing die. A friend of mine thinks I might have some polishing material in the case, but I shook each one out after polishing. Of course, it was the last case of 20 that I was polishing, so I cant reload the other 19.

I followed the directions to remove the case, but it is hung up pretty well. Do you have any advice on removing the shell short of taking the stinking thing to a machine shop?

Yup. You need a stuck shell remover. RCBS makes a good one, and you can even cobble together one of your own if you have thread-cutting taps at hand.

You drill and tap the primer pocket, then run in a suitable bolt through a deep-well socket placed against the die. Tighten the bolt until the case pops free.

Be sure to carefully check the die interior and clean/polish it well before you resume reloading. Buy some GOOD sizing lube - and use it.

Not enough lube on the case. Extraction ruins the case - sorry, but it has to be so. I have the distinction of never having been able to make the stuck case removers work. They've just torn the threads out of the case heads when I've tried them. Once in .308 and once in .223. To prevent this, I suggest a couple of things: One is to soak the whole die and case in Kroil or other penetrating oil in a glass jar for a day or two. The other is, once you've cut the threads, put the whole die into the freezer for a couple of hours. If you have an ice cream store or other source locally, get a couple of pounds of dry ice and move the die from the freezer to that for another couple of hours. Brass shrinks more than steel when cooling, so these steps should make it easier to extract. Obviously a cold die and case will have to be handled with freezer gloves and you will have to get the puller in place and work quickly.

If you have a Lee sizing die, you can loosen the decapper and tap it with a hammer to knock the case out, but I would not do that without the penetrating oil and freezer treatment being applied first.

Never stick a case just a little, huh, nick? Go for the gusto, LOL!!

Never stuck one that bad myself, but then I've only stuck one in 50 years. My to-that-day unused set of RCBS removers worked perfectly with one turn of the bolt after it bore firmly.

That was also the day I switched to Imperial Wax. I doubt I'll ever need the puller again. But it's there on my shelf, anyway.

STLBluesFan88
If you don't want the deer to explode when you hit it ! 1. Leave the 223 at home! 2. Load the 7mm-08 with a good bullet (Rem Core-lok ) at a good velocity and shoot them through the ribs just behind the shoulder and you be fine! Now that was easy wasn't it! :)

Never stick a case just a little, huh, nick? Go for the gusto, LOL!!. . ..

Oh, I didn't tell you the good part. The .223 die was an $80 carbide die. They're right about having to lube for those, though I wasn't testing the point intentionally.

Heres my two cents I would concentrate on what type of bullet you will be using for hunting. I like Nosler and Swift hunting bullets. I would suggest doing some research on hunting bullets. I like Nosler because it mushrooms on contact making a large wound channel before leaving out the other side leaving a inch and a half hole. This bullet has never failed me. For my plunkers I buy Corloc Remington's in bulk very cheap. I also have a chronograph which is invaluable in working up loads. I am not worried about speed as I concentrate on accuracy. I have found when working up a loads that somewhere between low and med there is a sweet spot where my rifle shoots very accurate. My point is if your load is accurate then you will hit your game and with the right hunting bullet you will get a clean kill. If your hoping that your game will drop instantly every time then your dreaming as I have found every hunt is different. Good luck in your hunt. I bagged my moose on the 19th of Oct. One shot is all it took.

Bullet choice is a tough one....seems like the way a bullet works for one guy may not be the same for another. My bullet of choice for my 6.5x55 is a 100gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip that leaves the barrel at 3050fps. Super accurate and perfect terminal performance; punches through leaving nice holes through the lungs. Others have had too rapid of expansion with the same bullet, no pass through, and a lot of meat damage.
Experimentation is the key... Just remember, with a well placed shot, deer are very easy to kill. Save that bonded stuff for elk and the like.

Jim

the 120 gr ballistic tips at 3000+ fps put deer down real fast when hit in the ribs, but i would only trust them for a broadside.

any quality projectile of around the 140-150 gr that shoots well in your rifle would do.

if using the bonded bullets remember that they only open up at reasonably high speeds (2500fps+) or if they hit something hard like concrete.
nosler should make a soft 120 gr accubond in .284 hmmm.... with a bc of 1. lol.

When at the top of my shooting form, I used to do head and neck shots which eliminates any form of tracking when done proper. Thing is you don't know when a deer is going to move and move fast. I am an advocate of the heart lung shot. This is where when zeroing for hunting I say a minute of paper plate is good. Zero on the lowest power your scope goes, on a paper plate try to center your group at 2 inches high. Be realistic, 100 yd zero is ample for deer, most everywhere in wooded areas. 200yd zero for open area hunting. A heart lung shot has an error of +- 4 inches. Send a bullet through the deers lungs or heart it will die. .223 with a very well constructed bullet going through the vitals will surely kill, take it for a backup to the 7mm.

Thanks for the advice, folks... I was eventually able to get the 223 into a MOA at 100 yards with 52gr HPBTs and 40 gr VMax and Varget powder.

The 7m08 was giving me some spray at 100 yards, so I bought all new cases (even though I was using once-fired factory brass), trimmed them to the proper size, and changed the powder to IMR 4064. Instead of 3 MOA at 100 yards, I was throwing half-inch patterns yesterday at the range with 120gr spire points. For some reason, the 139gr bullets (Hornady SST ballistic tips) werent as tight, but they were tight enough. Until I get more consistent with the 139gr bullets, the 120s should suffice for deer.

Im new to reloading, and have spent a ton of time checking the numbers, stats, commercial factory pages, and forums. One question that I cant find an answer to is what is the key (or keys) to finding a successful load for killing (deer and hog)?

Im going to be reloading 223 and 7mm08, and I want to cook effective loads. Is the key velocity, force, or what? One thing that came close to answering the question is some website had the magic number of 1000 pounds of energy being the make-or-break point for a bullet's effectiveness. But if that were the case, no arrow would ever kill a deer.

I dont want the deer to explode when I hit it, but I want it to drop fairly quickly when I put a bullet behind the shoulder. (Hogs... those can blow up for all I care!)

Also, is there a way to find out what type of powder my favorite commercial rounds use? I like Federal Premium with Nosler 140grain ballistic tips for the 7mm08 and would like to replicate that load as best I can.

Essentially I want to load two types of rounds... accurate plinkers and accurate killers. Any tips or advice would be welcome!


With a 140 grain load I can be of no help, I was not happy with the 139 & 140 gr loads that I tested ,
160 gr Sierra 160 gr btsp 36.0 gr Accurate 2460 (Published max load listed is 37 gr w/ 160 Nosler)
This load shoots 1 1/4 MOA for me out of a Savage with nex to nothing done to it ,should do even better after my restocking project
also try 175gr Remington, they are verry afordable and do quite wellfor me with 35.5 Accurate 2460 ( 37gr Published max) the 160 is my hunting load
would recomend you back off a 2-3 grains and work up to YOUR rifle w/ YOUR brass& primers, have fun

Avs kick Blues butts

Update... bought IMR 4198 for the .223 and was stitching half inch groups this morning at 100 yards with 14-25 mph tail winds. I was using 52gr HPBT and 35gr VMax bullets. Due to different weights and powder loads, the 35gr bullets were higher, but consistently so. I feel very confident using that rifle to hunt now, with those loads.

Thanks again for the tips!