Made you look :)

Reason for the title is that it's sometimes very, very difficult to convince people that non-expanding bullets kill, and kill very well.

So..... went out to a friend's deer lease today to help him with some chores that would go easier with two people. While we're trimming brush from in front of a stand, a bunch of pigs came out in the open. Go figure.....

Anyway, this little porker went down with the excellent Beartooth 185gr. "+P" handgun bullet loaded to about 2300fps in my .35 Rem.

Piggie was a small boar (under a hundred pounds, maybe 75 or so). He ended up maybe 50 or 60 yards from where he was shot, but ran in a bit of a semi-circle. Not unusual distance at all for a double lung shot. One shoulder was barely clipped but no bones were broken other than ribs.

Blood trail was interesting because it was clearly coming out of both sides. The pictures will show why! If you've shot very many pigs you'll appreciate a good blood trail. This guy was fat, too.

Notice the 'cookie cutter' entrance hole. No way the hide or fat is going to plug that up!!!! Always see this with cast bullets with flat noses, whether rifle or handgun. FYI, the exit hole was partially plugged up with lung tissue. The bullet literall sucked part of the lungs into the exit hole! That I didn't get a picture of, but I had to pull the luns away from the exit hole when I was gutting it.

Next, take a look at the lungs. Notice the hole through one of them is way bigger than a quarter.

Last, look at the picture of the inside of the ribs. You can see daylight through the hole on the right. There's another hole just like it on the left side, but not visible due to the angle I guess.

Impact velocity would have been in the 2,000fps range. Remember, this is a non-expanding bullet. One of our other members had a comment to me several days ago that the .35 Rem "looked like it was all bullet". Not like the little bitty bullets sitting on a big case full of powder .... thought that was interesting.

She's an oldie but a goodie!

Never get tired of pork, eh, Mike? :p

Great Pix Mike! Nice little table porker too. Hmmmmm smokies in the making.

Great illustration of the terminal performance of a non-expanding cast bullet with wide frontal area too. And you are right, for those who have never used them, the terminal effect is incomprehensible. Nice thing about non-expanding wide meplat cast bullets is the lack of bloodshot as well, as your photos so well illustrate.... all the more to eat that way!

Thanks for the pix, and great field report!

God bless,

Nice piggy Mike. I can almost taste the ribs now. A bullet going that slow doesn't ruin any meet either.

RJ

Made you look :)

Reason for the title is that it's sometimes very, very difficult to convince people that non-expanding bullets kill, and kill very well.

So..... went out to a friend's deer lease today to help him with some chores that would go easier with two people. While we're trimming brush from in front of a stand, a bunch of pigs came out in the open. Go figure.....

Anyway, this little porker went down with the excellent Beartooth 185gr. "+P" handgun bullet loaded to about 2300fps in my .35 Rem.

Piggie was a small boar (under a hundred pounds, maybe 75 or so). He ended up maybe 50 or 60 yards from where he was shot, but ran in a bit of a semi-circle. Not unusual distance at all for a double lung shot. One shoulder was barely clipped but no bones were broken other than ribs.

Blood trail was interesting because it was clearly coming out of both sides. The pictures will show why! If you've shot very many pigs you'll appreciate a good blood trail. This guy was fat, too.

Notice the 'cookie cutter' entrance hole. No way the hide or fat is going to plug that up!!!! Always see this with cast bullets with flat noses, whether rifle or handgun. FYI, the exit hole was partially plugged up with lung tissue. The bullet literall sucked part of the lungs into the exit hole! That I didn't get a picture of, but I had to pull the luns away from the exit hole when I was gutting it.

Next, take a look at the lungs. Notice the hole through one of them is way bigger than a quarter.

Last, look at the picture of the inside of the ribs. You can see daylight through the hole on the right. There's another hole just like it on the left side, but not visible due to the angle I guess.

Impact velocity would have been in the 2,000fps range. Remember, this is a non-expanding bullet. One of our other members had a comment to me several days ago that the .35 Rem "looked like it was all bullet". Not like the little bitty bullets sitting on a big case full of powder .... thought that was interesting.

She's an oldie but a goodie!
Next time you get up this way, here's a full box for you.
About 50 years old I reckon.

Nice pig!

Great autopsy report! Not many hard cast bullets recovered for inspection I suspect?

Great pictures;great post,too.
I have always been a believer in big meplat cast bullets.
Frank

Great pics Mike. Just what I needed with my morning coffee. Yep. that's the same results I got with my 290 gr LFNGC last year. Kinda makes me wonder why I bought the 30 06 a few weeks ago. I think I will take the little lever this weekend.

Looks like Marshal's got another winner!! Great shot Mike! Nice little bacon maker! Nice young an tender!! I have no doupt cast bullets do the job quite well when we do our part and put them were they need to go!

He was incredibly fat, for a boar especially. Will make some really good sausage.

Some frightening news:

http://www.thepigsite.com/swinenews/15763/wild-hog-population-soars-in-texas

Here's the first part of the text, in case the link disappears:

Wild Hog Population Soars in Texas
US - Ranchers and farmers fighting the nation's largest population of feral hogs could soon be trying to ward off twice as many of the tusked, field-shredding animals.


This photo provided by the Texas A&M University Research and Extension Center shows feral hogs eating corn at a deer feeder near Overton, Texas, in 2004. Agricultural and wildlife officials fear the ample water and vegetation brought by unseasonably heavy rains this year could double from current state estimates of 2 million wild hogs.
Wildlife officials fear the ample water and vegetation brought by record-setting rains in Texas this year could double the state estimate of 2 million hogs. The animals reproduce prolifically even under normal conditions, with sows annually having up to two litters of four to eight piglets.

"We are seeing an absolute explosion," said Kirby Brown, executive vice president of the Texas Wildlife Association. "They are on a roll right now."



Better shoot all you can, boys!!!! :eek:

When I first got into handgun hunting I started out with jacketed bullets for both the 357 and 44 magnum. They really didn't perform worth a durn.

When I changed over to hardcast Kieth style bullets performance went up dramatically. From that point I've always used wide meplat cast bullets for all my handgun hunting over 40 years now with great results.

Great pix Mike and I'll bet that's going to make tasty sausage.

Great report Mike! Glad to see that you put such time into everything especially the pictures. I'm going to refer this post to some of the folks who think they have to have an expanding high tech bullet to make their hunt a success.

William
Made you look :)

Reason for the title is that it's sometimes very, very difficult to convince people that non-expanding bullets kill, and kill very well.

So..... went out to a friend's deer lease today to help him with some chores that would go easier with two people. While we're trimming brush from in front of a stand, a bunch of pigs came out in the open. Go figure.....

Anyway, this little porker went down with the excellent Beartooth 185gr. "+P" handgun bullet loaded to about 2300fps in my .35 Rem.

Piggie was a small boar (under a hundred pounds, maybe 75 or so). He ended up maybe 50 or 60 yards from where he was shot, but ran in a bit of a semi-circle. Not unusual distance at all for a double lung shot. One shoulder was barely clipped but no bones were broken other than ribs.

Blood trail was interesting because it was clearly coming out of both sides. The pictures will show why! If you've shot very many pigs you'll appreciate a good blood trail. This guy was fat, too.

Notice the 'cookie cutter' entrance hole. No way the hide or fat is going to plug that up!!!! Always see this with cast bullets with flat noses, whether rifle or handgun. FYI, the exit hole was partially plugged up with lung tissue. The bullet literall sucked part of the lungs into the exit hole! That I didn't get a picture of, but I had to pull the luns away from the exit hole when I was gutting it.

Next, take a look at the lungs. Notice the hole through one of them is way bigger than a quarter.

Last, look at the picture of the inside of the ribs. You can see daylight through the hole on the right. There's another hole just like it on the left side, but not visible due to the angle I guess.

Impact velocity would have been in the 2,000fps range. Remember, this is a non-expanding bullet. One of our other members had a comment to me several days ago that the .35 Rem "looked like it was all bullet". Not like the little bitty bullets sitting on a big case full of powder .... thought that was interesting.

She's an oldie but a goodie!

send them to Jersey!

I'd love to have them thar ribs & roasts!! Yum!!

How's the tenderloin Mike?

Haven't eaten the tenderloin yet. But I predict it'll be good :D :D :D

Of course a non expanding bullet can kill, look how many people have been killed by military ball ammunition.. in your case, how much of the energy of your bullet was expended in the pig, and how much was lost after the bullet left the porker.. If you had used an expanding premium bullet, I'm not going to guarantee that it would have stayed in the animal, but it would have put much more of the potential energy into the pig and you would have had an animal move very little or maybe fall down dead where it was hit..

ymmv

Made you look :)

Reason for the title is that it's sometimes very, very difficult to convince people that non-expanding bullets kill, and kill very well.

So..... went out to a friend's deer lease today to help him with some chores that would go easier with two people. While we're trimming brush from in front of a stand, a bunch of pigs came out in the open. Go figure.....

Anyway, this little porker went down with the excellent Beartooth 185gr. "+P" handgun bullet loaded to about 2300fps in my .35 Rem.

Piggie was a small boar (under a hundred pounds, maybe 75 or so). He ended up maybe 50 or 60 yards from where he was shot, but ran in a bit of a semi-circle. Not unusual distance at all for a double lung shot. One shoulder was barely clipped but no bones were broken other than ribs.

Blood trail was interesting because it was clearly coming out of both sides. The pictures will show why! If you've shot very many pigs you'll appreciate a good blood trail. This guy was fat, too.

Notice the 'cookie cutter' entrance hole. No way the hide or fat is going to plug that up!!!! Always see this with cast bullets with flat noses, whether rifle or handgun. FYI, the exit hole was partially plugged up with lung tissue. The bullet literall sucked part of the lungs into the exit hole! That I didn't get a picture of, but I had to pull the luns away from the exit hole when I was gutting it.

Next, take a look at the lungs. Notice the hole through one of them is way bigger than a quarter.

Last, look at the picture of the inside of the ribs. You can see daylight through the hole on the right. There's another hole just like it on the left side, but not visible due to the angle I guess.

Impact velocity would have been in the 2,000fps range. Remember, this is a non-expanding bullet. One of our other members had a comment to me several days ago that the .35 Rem "looked like it was all bullet". Not like the little bitty bullets sitting on a big case full of powder .... thought that was interesting.

She's an oldie but a goodie!

Guess you missed TPV's latest account of pig hunting, dundonri -

He used a .260 Rem with expanding bullets on a 100 lb porker just the other day and had it run spewing blood from both sides (through penetration) for about 100 yds before keeling over.

Premium bullets aren't going to guarantee DRT results. The use of hard cast with large meplats will do just as much shock and damage as the pointy jacketed ones.

Welcome to the board, BTW - sorry your first post has to be one of criticism

Of course a non expanding bullet can kill, look how many people have been killed by military ball ammunition.. in your case, how much of the energy of your bullet was expended in the pig, and how much was lost after the bullet left the porker.. If you had used an expanding premium bullet, I'm not going to guarantee that it would have stayed in the animal, but it would have put much more of the potential energy into the pig and you would have had an animal move very little or maybe fall down dead where it was hit..

ymmv

Welcome to the forum.... Let me assure you I've had pigs run off plenty of 'energy absorbtion' with everything from a .257 Roberts to a .458 Win Mag.

If you haven't hunted with flat-nosed cast bullets you don't know what you are missing.

No, you shouldn't 'guarantee' such things :) Stick around and there's plenty to learn here about cast bullet performance on critters.

Bolt action kill this year with a Hornady 165 gr SP in the neck at 15 yds. The deer dropped in place. Most neck shots do, for me.

Lever action kill was 290 gr Beartooth LFNGC at approx 50 yds through the boiler room. Ran a semi circle of 90 degrees and expired. Most boiler room shots do, for me.

Most of the deer I have shot with the bow do the same.

Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,Shot placement,

Why haven't I bought any cast bullets for my 1895GS yet?!!

Jim

Marshall will be glad to oblige! :D

Guess you missed TPV's latest account of pig hunting, dundonri -

He used a .260 Rem with expanding bullets on a 100 lb porker just the other day and had it run spewing blood from both sides (through penetration) for about 100 yds before keeling over.

Premium bullets aren't going to guarantee DRT results. The use of hard cast with large meplats will do just as much shock and damage as the pointy jacketed ones.

Welcome to the board, BTW - sorry your first post has to be one of criticism


true, a premium bullet will NOT guarantee results, BUT if you can keep 100% of the energy, and do more vital damage with that energy, you have to admit that the potential for a quicker kill is higher..

I'm going back and forth on weither too use the Nosler Partition or Nosler Accubond.. sure the Accubond causes more damage too the animal, but dosn't penetrate nearly as far.. but for soft skinned animals, such as Mule Deer and Elk, that's generally all you need.. BUT there's those times that you need the penetration power of the Partiton... guess it all depends on the circumstance, and where the bullet hit the animal..

BUT for me, I'll never shoot an animal with a solid core bullet, unless I'm in Africa hunting Elephants, then it's atleast a 300 gr solid bullet too the brain..

true, a premium bullet will NOT guarantee results, BUT if you can keep 100% of the energy, and do more vital damage with that energy, you have to admit that the potential for a quicker kill is higher..



No, I'm afraid it doesn't. This is one situation where all the math in the world won't help you.

I've put many thousands of ft-lbs in sub 100 lb. critters, and had them run surprising distances.

And used much lesser cartridges that dropped them on the spot.

It sounds good in theory but just doesn't work out in the real world.......

All solids are not equal. It's the flat on the nose that is critical. Once you go above .35 cal, the wound channels have to be seen to be believed. Look at the pictures of my pig again. The tissue damage is just as much as many soft points would hive given you.

No, I'm afraid it doesn't. This is one situation where all the math in the world won't help you.

I've put many thousands of ft-lbs in sub 100 lb. critters, and had them run surprising distances.

And used much lesser cartridges that dropped them on the spot.

It sounds good in theory but just doesn't work out in the real world.......

All solids are not equal. It's the flat on the nose that is critical. Once you go above .35 cal, the wound channels have to be seen to be believed. Look at the pictures of my pig again. The tissue damage is just as much as many soft points would hive given you.


I used too use a 30-06 for hunting.. but in Oregon a few of our Elk and deer season overlap(and bear year round) so I picked up a 375 Remington Ultra Mag, and hot load it to almost 3000 fps with a 300 gr Partition, I know the damage a bullet larger than 35 cal can do.. (almost took the head off a 5x6 bull elk) but even as big as a bull elk is, that bullet still went through the neck(hit right below the skull, exited out below the jaw)

is that bullet over kill on deer or elk, YES, but all I ever do anymore are head/neck shots, so it's either a clean miss (for the last 3 years since I got the 375 RUM there have been no misses, or needed 2nd shots) and all 3 bucks and 1 bull elk have dropped in their tracks... COULD that have been done with a non expanding bullet, possibly.. but I won't take that chance..

I don't have any issue with your choice of hunting cartridge / bullet. Nothing wrong with that setup.

But I think you'd be amazed at the damage a flat nosed hard cast bullet will do. It's one thing to prefer something thing different.... quite another to tell us it can't be done, especially after we already went and did it :D

Almost anything will kill on a head/neck shot, FYI. You don't need expansion when you hit bone.... My .257 Roberts would be putting down an elk in that scenario, as would the .35 Rem with the 185gr. cast bullet. Not that I'd take the Roberts as the first choice for an elk hunt, simply because it lacks the versatility to handle any body shot at any angle on a critter that big. But your elk/bucks would still be DRT and that's due to bullet placement, not the cartridge you used.

Let me ask you this, why do you think a hard cast bullet would fail to penetrate the neck of an elk?

You might want to look at Marshall's story/pictures of his elk hunt, with the .444 Marlin. Think it's in the hunting stories topic, since we're on the subject of elk hunting with cast bullets ;) He's put down a moose, too, with his own cast bullets in the same .444 chambering. Those pictures are around here, also.

Appreciate your warning us of the perils of non-expanding bullets :D but I've killed a whole bunch of critters with them, and jacketed bullets both. Up to and including a bison, FYI.

If anything, generally getting quicker kills with the cast bullets.

We can argue theory all day long but it's tough to argue results.

Not sure how suitable your .375 RUM is for cast bullets but if you get a chance to shoot a doe or maybe a feral hog or something like that, you ought to give cast bullets a try.

You'll be amazed, I promise.

Good thread Mike, and I wholeheartedly agree! About 35 years ago I shot a little California Blacktail broadside through the ribs with a 180 grain Sierra out of a .30-06. I handloaded it to about 2,600 FPS. The Deer ran about 200 yards before expiring. I was very suprised to find upon skinning, that the high velocity expanding bullet never even got through the off side shoulder, only after going through one rib and the vitals. Most of the front end of that Deer was bloodshot and uneatable. What was left of that bullet was mear fragments. In fact for many years I kept all the bullets I recovered from game, and even listed what they went through at about how far, how much weight they shed, etc. I had a pretty large bowl full of them, and lost lot's of meat for it as well. Then I started casting, and have not found but maybe half a dozen of the bullets in game, and they have been the light for caliber ones, and only after they penetrated from one end to the other through the animal. I could also eat right up to the 2" dia. bullet holes. Another plus is being able to hit large game through the shoulders to put it down quickly and not destroying all the shoulder meat. Moral of the story. . . . Large caliber, big meplated, hard cast bullets, at moderate velocities RULE!

Mike and All.....People knocking hard cast bullets with a big meplat....is just the same old same-o! Most have never even hunted with hard cast!
Now....I do think the caliber and range have a lot to do woth what one choses to use. In calibers from .357" and up....and best in cover...there is nothing better!
An interesting test done at the John Linebaugh Seminar.....a .730"-730 gr hard cast heat treated bullet at 1250'/" penetrated/damaged the bone box as deep as a .416.....but, who would listen to John Linebaugh?
...most people that know what they are doing!
But....as you well know, the hard cast must have a big meplat for tissue damage.
Bottom line....it is impossible to convuence many people about hard cast, with a big meplat!...their minds have beeen programed by years of Hot Ait Ballistics pumped out by the various sources for sales!
Anyway.....a great post/pictues!
Regards, James

***** through the Vitals for rapid blood loss or a central nervous system hit are what kills, not so called energy transfer..........