First off, I'd like to thank all of you for getting me started on the Big Bore. I think I first got on here about 3 years ago, and after a series of questins, you all let me know pretty much everyhing needed to make an educated jump into the world of the big bore. Thanks.

So, I now have a question for all of you hard cast guys...

Since I satrted shooting big bore (I have a the 45-70 Guide Gun by the way), I've pretty much used premade jacketed ammo. I didn't really think about lead cast since I thought it would lead the barrel. well, I got turned on to Garrett Ammunition, and read about how it is such a hard lead (25-Brinnell) that it does not lead the barrel, and supposedly is easier on the barrel than copper solids(?). I guess this goes for hard casts accross the board, but I noticed a difference in hardness as I read about different brands. Some were only 15 Brinnell, yet still called hard cast.
So, I was wondering if you guys could tell me about the different truely hard cast bullets out there, and what you prefer. I know that the moderator has some nice bullets, and I am now looking in quite a different light at the prospect of handloading.

So, everyone what do you use, and how does it perform?

For your use in the 45-70, can consider 15 hard enough. really isn't an exact line between hard and soft.

Idea is that when you light off a round, the pressure kicks the bullet in the arse...being heavy it doesn't want to move easily. Getting hit with that pressure tends to deform the load (slug it up); this gives the bullet a nice tight seal and takes the rifling well.

Too soft, and it deforms too much (flows like putty) which gives horrible accuracy, higher pressure than expected, and usually some leading near the middle to muzzle end of the barrel.


Too hard (for the pressure you'll be using) and the bullet will refuse to slug-up, letting a small jet of gas sneak pass the bullet, eroding lead as it does, making for a horrible leading problem (the the chamber end more than elsewhere).

It's a balance thing....soft enough to deform some, but not too soft or too hard. Bullets in that 12-18 range would work fine for the pressures of a warm smokeless .45-70.

Hmmmm...that's very interesting. I'm thinking of really educating myself before I get into reloading. That just made me look at things a bit differently (Not as to educating myself, but as to how much more I need to learn before I even start). In my experience, things that require learning the fine art of balancing should be approached with quite a bit of patience. Thanks, and take care.

Oh, and anything else anyone wants to teach, please go for it. :)

For your use in the 45-70, can consider 15 hard enough. really isn't an exact line between hard and soft.

Idea is that when you light off a round, the pressure kicks the bullet in the arse...being heavy it doesn't want to move easily. Getting hit with that pressure tends to deform the load (slug it up); this gives the bullet a nice tight seal and takes the rifling well.

Too soft, and it deforms too much (flows like putty) which gives horrible accuracy, higher pressure than expected, and usually some leading near the middle to muzzle end of the barrel.


Too hard (for the pressure you'll be using) and the bullet will refuse to slug-up, letting a small jet of gas sneak pass the bullet, eroding lead as it does, making for a horrible leading problem (the the chamber end more than elsewhere).

It's a balance thing....soft enough to deform some, but not too soft or too hard. Bullets in that 12-18 range would work fine for the pressures of a warm smokeless .45-70.

Need_Medicine
Amen to what was already said.
I can add this.BHN 15 is about the hardist alloy that my 3 45/70 rifles have seen in bullets that I've cast myself. Most bullets are in the BHN 9 range. When velocities get up to the 1800 FPS,I add a wax wad to the bottom of the bullet.So far;no problem with leading the bore.
Frank

Going to let you on on one "secret", but it applies more to home casters than store-bought-bullet shooters.

If your alloy is a tad hard...just a little bit too hard...switching to a heavier bullet usually gets the lead alloy working right. What I think happens is that that pressure that kicks the bullet in the rump does a better job of slugging up a heavy bullet...more inertia..and that can let you cast heavy bullets from a slightly too hard alloy.

Guess you could try that in reverse and go to a lighter bullet for too soft alloy, but I've never been stuck with a big batch of too soft lead. It's easy to add material to harden lead, just about impossible to remove.

In fact, over all, have had the BEST accuracy with lead bullets in the middle to heavy weight range reguardless of caliber/pressure.

Well, it seems like you guys cast your own bullets. I'd ultimately like to do that, but just getting into loading, I think I'll go with bullets that other very good bullet makers have made.

Mostly, I shoot deer rounds. 300-325g bullets. I've got a friend up in Maine who keeps talking about Bear, so there are the Garrett 540 grainers (Havent been up yet, but you know you still dream about it on the shooting range). I grew up in colorado, and have a few friends that do elk, and within 200 yards, so I've been thinking of cooking up a 400 grainer, and then I just like the old blackbouder preassured 405.

So, my storebought at this point is:
1. Hornady Leverevolution 325g.
2. HSM 400 jacketed flat at 1800 fps.
3. Garret5 540g at 1551fps.
4. Remington 405g.

All of these loads are pretty low preasure (I don't think one goes over 35,000cup), and I'd like to keep it like that.

To replace the Garrett, I've been looking at the Crater 550g which is about 22 Brinnell, Beartooth 525g at about 22 Brinnell, and Montana Precision Swagging 550g at ?, I've also been looking at some of the bullets made for the .458 Winchester Mag, like the Woodleigh 550g and the Hornady 500g Interlock, but have to ask you guys if that is nuts...is it?

Thanks.

Oh, I forgot to ask if you knew of any bullet and load combos that would match the factory I'm shooting.

Going to let you on on one "secret", but it applies more to home casters than store-bought-bullet shooters.

If your alloy is a tad hard...just a little bit too hard...switching to a heavier bullet usually gets the lead alloy working right. What I think happens is that that pressure that kicks the bullet in the rump does a better job of slugging up a heavy bullet...more inertia..and that can let you cast heavy bullets from a slightly too hard alloy.

Guess you could try that in reverse and go to a lighter bullet for too soft alloy, but I've never been stuck with a big batch of too soft lead. It's easy to add material to harden lead, just about impossible to remove.

In fact, over all, have had the BEST accuracy with lead bullets in the middle to heavy weight range reguardless of caliber/pressure.

In the Marlin, I think you'll find the very hard alloys do best if they are about 0.002" over bore diameter. Get one with a gas check to mitigate the gas blow-by issue.

So, that's a .459 or so? Thanks.

0.458" + 0.002" = 0.460". 0.458" is the nominal groove diameter in the Marlin. For more accuracy, you should slug your bore with a pure lead bullet and measure its O.D. with an O.D. thimble micrometer that has 1/10,000 resolution, then add 0.002" to the result. You can order Beartooth bullets sized to 0.460" diameter. Marshall also sells pure lead fishing sinkers for slugging (most that I find locally now are alloy, and too springy to give usable results; cast bullet alloys are too). Look around and you'll see several comments that the Marlin in particular likes 0.002" oversize and shoots more accurately with it than with the more common 0.459" sizing.

Need_Medecine,

I see you have contracted the illness. ;) These fellows have give you great advice and suggestions learned from their experiences. Once this thread winds down I suggest you copy and paste these posts into a document you can save on your computer for future reference.

Dave :cool:

So, that's a .459 or so? Thanks.

Like the other posters, would probably try .460".

With cast bullets in the 45-70, usually go to bullets somewhere in the 400-470gr. area. they'll be slower than the light weights, but usually easier to get to shoot well.

So, if I were to have a dear load in 400 - 420 grain bullets, what kind of velocity would we be looking at? I'm thinking of using H322...don't want to leave an exit would the size of a pineapple. :) Oh, most of my shots are tree-stand under 200 yards (Under 100 most of the time). Black powder velocity?



Like the other posters, would probably try .460".

With cast bullets in the 45-70, usually go to bullets somewhere in the 400-470gr. area. they'll be slower than the light weights, but usually easier to get to shoot well.

Mostly seems to be the shape of the cast bullet that does the work and once you start punching out the other side, seems little advantage to launching them faster. 420gr./450gr. or 470gr. at 1500fps should do the trick nicely, but I'd tend to stay as close (or under) to 100-150yards as possible.

When I shot a 45-70, started with heavy smokless loads. Then would settled on smokeless at 45-90 speeds. Then stopped loading smokeless all together and stuck with BP and iron sights, with a self imposed game limit of 125yards. Even at those sedate speeds, 450gr. bullets would easily exit whitetail, and if the bullet nose is a big blunt point, would push a nice "plug-o-deer" along ahead of it.

After looking around a bit, and reading up a bit more, I've finally figued out what bullet I'll use. I think I'll be starting out with 425 grain WLGC and 525 WLGC. Looking at powders, I've been thinking of H322. Do you know of any good load books and or loads for these? Also, do you know a good starter press? (I'd like to keep the preasure a little under 40,00psi).
Thanks a ton by the way.
J

After five years of trying I have finally found THE load for my Marlin 1895g. Does everything I want done and is still shootable. I started with new Remington brass, annealed the first ¾ inch using the melted lead method, belled with a Lee expander and primed with CCI 200. The powder charge is 52gr AA 2495. I started with 48 and worked up with no signs of pressure. This is a compressed load, even using a 16 inch drop tube. The magic bullet is cast in a Lyman 451114 mould. The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 ½ parts linotype, and ½ part tin. The bullet drops from the mould .451, 430gr and is ready for patching. I make my patches from 16lb green bar computer paper, cut 2.750 long on a 60* angle 1.500 high. I dip in water and wrap twice around the bullet. They are left to dry overnight, then lubed with BAC. Then the tails are clipped and the bullet is run through a .459 Lee sizing die. I seat them to an OCL of 2.580. These shoot clover leaf groups at 25 yards and into 1.75 at 100. This is with a Lyman 66 rear sight and factory front sight. Not bad for 55 year old eyes. Bullet performance on game is all one could ask for. I’ll not quit experimenting, but how does one improve on perfection?

Wow, I've really got a lot to learn. :)
Looks like it'll be baby steps for the next couple of years for me.
Good shooting to you, and thanks.

After five years of trying I have finally found THE load for my Marlin 1895g. Does everything I want done and is still shootable. I started with new Remington brass, annealed the first ¾ inch using the melted lead method, belled with a Lee expander and primed with CCI 200. The powder charge is 52gr AA 2495. I started with 48 and worked up with no signs of pressure. This is a compressed load, even using a 16 inch drop tube. The magic bullet is cast in a Lyman 451114 mould. The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 ½ parts linotype, and ½ part tin. The bullet drops from the mould .451, 430gr and is ready for patching. I make my patches from 16lb green bar computer paper, cut 2.750 long on a 60* angle 1.500 high. I dip in water and wrap twice around the bullet. They are left to dry overnight, then lubed with BAC. Then the tails are clipped and the bullet is run through a .459 Lee sizing die. I seat them to an OCL of 2.580. These shoot clover leaf groups at 25 yards and into 1.75 at 100. This is with a Lyman 66 rear sight and factory front sight. Not bad for 55 year old eyes. Bullet performance on game is all one could ask for. I’ll not quit experimenting, but how does one improve on perfection?

Wow, I've really got a lot to learn. . .

Don't we all? After five decades of shooting, I still eagerly await my monthly issue of Precision Shooting to see what new wrinkle someone has devised?

As to powder, my first reaction to pdawg_shooter's load was that the powder he's using was likely to be too slow. I ran it through QuickLOAD, though, and to my surprise, it produced the most velocity with the least chamber pressure at his bullet weight for the barrel time he is getting. It is very heavily compressed, as he said. Other powders that produced the same barrel time in the same pressure range all lost 50 fps or more from the 1790 fps predicted in the 22" barrel of a standard 1895. Probably the closest among powders popular for heavy bullets in the .45-70 would be about 48.3 grains of IMR 3031. It is not compressed, but loses 65 fps.

So, if you don't mind the heavy compression, XMR2495 may be a good choice for you. I think I am going to try some experimenting with it myself, now that pdawg_shooter has so graciously made us aware of its potential.

FYI, IMR 4198 is another powder popular in .45-70. For plinking loads, you might look at Trail Boss. If you want to use a ball powder, I recommend you de-burr flashholes. I've found it makes a difference to consistency of ignition and precision on the target of ball powder loads, though I can't tell any difference with stick powders. In the computer, the ball powder that performed closest to pdawg_shooter's load is 53.1 grains of Accurate 2520. I used to use this powder in .308, and deburring flashholes cut my group size 40% with it.

Is QuickLOAD some kind of load software? Hmmm.... :)

Looks like I just might have to check it out.


Don't we all? After five decades of shooting, I still eagerly await my monthly issue of Precision Shooting to see what new wrinkle someone has devised?

As to powder, my first reaction to pdawg_shooter's load was that the powder he's using was likely to be too slow. I ran it through QuickLOAD, though, and to my surprise, it produced the most velocity with the least chamber pressure at his bullet weight for the barrel time he is getting. It is very heavily compressed, as he said. Other powders that produced the same barrel time in the same pressure range all lost 50 fps or more from the 1790 fps predicted in the 22" barrel of a standard 1895. Probably the closest among powders popular for heavy bullets in the .45-70 would be about 48.3 grains of IMR 3031. It is not compressed, but loses 65 fps.

So, if you don't mind the heavy compression, XMR2495 may be a good choice for you. I think I am going to try some experimenting with it myself, now that pdawg_shooter has so graciously made us aware of its potential.

FYI, IMR 4198 is another powder popular in .45-70. For plinking loads, you might look at Trail Boss. If you want to use a ball powder, I recommend you de-burr flashholes. I've found it makes a difference to consistency of ignition and precision on the target of ball powder loads, though I can't tell any difference with stick powders. In the computer, the ball powder that performed closest to pdawg_shooter's load is 53.1 grains of Accurate 2520. I used to use this powder in .308, and deburring flashholes cut my group size 40% with it.

Is QuickLOAD some kind of load software?

Yes, and not the only internal ballistics software. Check this sticky. (http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=34384)

Thank you!


Yes, and not the only internal ballistics software. Check this sticky. (http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=34384)

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm
Approximate "Maximum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)Plumbers lead, stick on WW 13,000 - (Black Powder Only)Wheel weights / clip-on 25,000 - Non-Magnum handgunloads, Rifles to 1,800 fpsLyman # 2 (alloy varies in Lyman cast bullet books) 35,000 - Magnum handgun & rifles to 2,000 fpsQuench-cast WW (dropped from mould into cool water) 48,000 - Magnum handgun& rifles to 2,200 fpsOven heat treated WW 55,000 - Jacketed velocities in handgunsand rifles with quality bore & balanced load
Bullet BHN / "Minimum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)The formula (from the pages of HandLoader Magazine) to determine at what pressure an alloy of given BHN will obturate the base of the bullet and seal the bore. If the bullet is too hard to obturate, gas cutting usually occurs on the base band on the non-driving side of the rifling and barrel leading is likely. Simply multiply the alloy BHN by 1,422. Example: Alloy BHN of 12 multiplied by 1422 = 17,064. An alloy of 12 BHN should be used with a load that develops a "minimum" of 17,000 psi. Need more info on minimum / maximum alloy BHN? These Glen E. Fryxell articles explain alloy BHN in easy to understand language. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

Jackfish,

Excellent information. I used the editor to go into your post and copy it. I have put the copy up as a post in the Bullet Casting forum and made it a sticky, here (http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?p=301770&goto=postid).

I added a note about the firelapping exception to minimum pressure, wherein BHN 12 bullets are fired way below the formula's minimum pressure, but without enough pressure for gas cutting problems.