Leverite...you reminded me I had more to do with my 356 Win so yesterday I started to work on the Beartooth 250 Gr LFNGC, 0.359 dia.

I immediatly ran into some problems I need to contact Marshall to solve. The bullet hit the lands at about 2.40" COAL which is way too short to crimp in the crimp groove.

While I was at it...when I unloaded the mag in preperation for the reloading work I noticed the 220 gr Speer bullets had slipped down past the crimp groove on 4 out of the 6 cartridges in the tube. Only the first and second cartridges had the crimp groove still showing.

This was an epiphany to say the least. I have fired about 20 rounds so far at squirrels, rocks, range estimating etc, one or two at a time then reloading, so the first two were always "fresh". The rest had been pushed down to about 2.40" COAL, basically stopping at the top of the powder column. A flood of memories of 40 odd years washed over me and I remember the same thing happening with my first Win 94 30-30 and why I probably quit leverguns way back then.

It was ALSO a wake-up call to CONTINUALLY check and recheck all aspects of reloading...just because I have lots of experience doesn't mean I'm all that smart or my memory is perfect...:D We live and learn on a daily basis.

I pulled and re-seated the bullets and fire them to check conditions...no problems and chrono velocity was about the same my notes indicate, 2350 f/s plus or minus a bit. Now I have to do the same with the other 25 loaded rounds. These rounds are seated to 2.62" but because they won't hold under recoil and spring pressure, I will have to readjust the powder amount downwards and reseat to standard 2.56" COAL and use a Lee Factory Crimp die. This will also affect accuracy, but to what extent I won't know for a while.

For what it's worth, this is an old story to those who work with leverguns continually and something to keep in mind...AND NOT FORGET...DUH...for those just getting into the wiles of leverguns. :D


POST SCRIPT

I FOUND THE PROBLEM

I had this barrel rebored by Jess Ocumpaugh. It is a three groove barrel and I want ro emphsize ***THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE BARREL OR JESS'S WORK!!!!***.

The problem is with the bullet shape, length and cylindrical portion in front of the crimp groove, FOR THIS APPLICATION ONLY---A REBORED BARREL WITH A SHORT THROAT DESIGNED FOR 220 AND LIGHTER JACKETED BULLETS---. If I wanted to use this Beartooth 250 gr LFNCG bullet all that is required is the throat lengthened enough to eliminate bullet contact with the lands with this particular bullet when the bullet is crimped into the crimping groove at whatever COAL that happens to end up at...OR a redesign of the bullet to have a more tapered nose profile.

The 250 gr LFNCG bullet measures 0.0358" dia from the base of the bullet to about 0.790", roughly where the nose taper begins. The middle of the crimping groove is 0.500" from the base of the bullet. By tapping a bullet into the muzzle I found the land engraving began where the nose taper started which is about .250" above the center of the crimping groove. If that quarte inch section measured 0.350 or there abouts there wouldn't be any problem and I guess the bullet would be considered a "bore rider".

I will contact Marshall with the imformation I've come up with just so he can post a sticky or ??? on this particular combination.

I will also probably just stay with the 220 Speer FP as it gives good velocity, accuracy, good ecomony and for all intents and purposes and as far as I've read and until I actually shoot something larger than a squirrel...works very well.

Hope this helps someone, someway in the present or future.

Enjoy

Just get a Lee Factory Crimp die, and crimp Marshall's bullets wherever they need to be. Problem solved.

It really is that simple.....

Yes, this is not a problem at all. Adjust your COAL to keep the bullet from engraving the rifling and use your Lee Factory Crimp Die. I have the same “problem” with the Model 94 Winchester Big Bore rifles in both .356 and .444 Marlin. There is no trouble when reducing the COAL and after reducing the load and working my way back up I have not suffered any reduction in velocity and only a slight change in my maximum charge.

If you are hunting white tail deer you may wish to reconsider your bullet selection. I have found the 220-grain Speer bullet to be a bit too stoutly constructed for white tail deer. The bullet just beginning to expand as it exits.
I have had much quicker kills using the 200-grain Remington and Sierra JRN bullets than with the 220-grain Speer bullet.

Do not overlook the 180-grain Speer bullet for light deer as they perform very well.
The 200-grain RCBS gas check bullet is another fine bullet for the .356 Winchester cartridge but I believe you will find that Marshals LBT style bullets will perform very well on deer when driven at full speed.

MikeG...unfortunately using a Lee Factory ISN'T a total solution or that simple because of the shape of the bullet and the throat length. Seating where the bullet hits the lands produces a COAL of about 2.40" and puts the bullet way too deep in the case and the crimp is no where near the crimping groove, about half way up the bullet between the crimp groove and the beginning of the taper, as I stated before. I can be done, but it does look ugly and visualizing that is going on makes it worse. I do use Lee crimpers on applications of this sort, and thanks for the reply.

The simplest solution is, again, to deepen the throat about 0.250" which would allow the Beartooth 250 gr LFNGC to be seated to the standard 2.56" COAL and also be crimped in the bullets crimping groove...if anyone wants to use this bullet...otherwise it is moot...a non-issue.

I need to find a 250 gr Nosler PT and a Hornady 250 RN to measure just for information sake. I think the velocity might be too low for those bullets to be really effective in this application, but who knows. The lower velocity might just keep the bullet from upsetting and it might act like a hard case lead as far as penetration on heavier game. I'm just not a cast lead bullet fan even with my pistols and I use full loads for practice anyway. I know I'm missing out on some things, but I have a finite amount of time and money so....:(

I had a nice long talk with Marshall and the issue is not really a problem because of the very few that fall into the "problem" catagory. Marshall was also aware of the short throat of Jesses conversions.

William...Thanks for the info...I haven't tried any of the lighter bullets having first started with the 220 gr Speer because I wanted a heavier constructed bullet for Muleys, Elk and Bear or two legged varmints. I don't really hunt anything larger than squirrels much anymore, but I live in the boonies and the levergun is more of a "home/wood cutting/woods stomping" protection device when I'm not carrying the Mossberg. The 220 Speer really opens up well in my sandpile bullet stop at 100 to 130 yds.

Enjoy

I'm sorry I guess I don't understand the issue completely.

The Lee FCD won't matter if a cast bullet is lined up with the crimp groove or no. Normally the Beartooth bullets I've used in the .35 and .444 don't exactly line up the crimp groove with the case mouth.

In fact there's hardly even any visual difference, other than you don't see the top of the crimp groove.

It's never been a problem to crimp them 'wherever' and I cannot trace this practice to any accuracy issues or problems with the ammunition being handled in the field.

Perhaps with jacketed but not with cast....?

Now I can understand there could be an issue with the case capacity being reduced. That is a real concern and certainly throating is the only possible solution, or a bore-riding bullet nose, perhaps.

I would be curious to understand if using a Lee FCD with a cast bullet, has caused issues for you, when they don't line up with the crimp groove.

Let me know because there may be something we can learn.

Oh and let me add this - while you don't want the bullet to get stuck in the throat as the action closes, I do normally set the OAL for cast bullets so that the rifling gently 'kisses' the nose of the bullet. Extracting the bullet doesn't involve any extra effort, but you will see little marks all the way around the bullet from the origin of the rifling. This does seem to enhance accuracy a bit with cast bullets, FYI.

Hope that helps.....

In days past with lead pistol bullets I would seat in the crimp groove, over a shoulder on the bullet depending on the nose shape, in a grease groove or ??? depending on how I felt at the time and sometimes without rhyme or reason. I played around with seating depths for target loads to try and find "the best most accurate". Found several different lengths that kept my score in the top 5%, but there were a lot of variables going on so I can't really say if the seating was it or not, I changed primers, bullets, powders and case brands also.

I don't think the accuracy with a levergun in the field borders on 1000 yd record setting and the tolerances in the action don't lean themselves in that direction either, but minute of deer and well engineered ammo are well within the scope.

I prep my cases as to weight, length and neck thickness along with several other parameters just like I do my bughole shooters to eliminate as many variables as possible. As an aside I just fired off a couple of 300 yd, 3 shot groups with my 250 Sav Imp and 75 gr Horn Vmaxes...one measured 1.113" and one measured 0.889". Can't complain about that a bit except it has a short whippy, 22" #1 contour barrel on a Rem 788 action and it outshot my Sav 243 W with a 26" heavy barrel...not by much so I will have to work on the 243 ammo, trigger or bag techniques. :D

If Marshall had a larger audience for that bullet with a Jess O barrel then I would guess he would come up with a bore rider. Nothing more than talking to Jess, determining his reamer dimensions and cutting a cherry for the casting blocks... slightly more complicated in reality. Still cost money to do and takes time to recover the costs.

In time I will work out a way to turn down that particular problem dia...actually between 0.100 and 0.140"...on these bullets then try them out. I've started chasing around the metal working catalogs looking for some kind of workholder to hold the bullet...maybe nothing more than a slight taper to clear the lands for the required amount. There are several solutions available for an experimenter like myself.

I have a military 8mm Mauser with a large neck and long throat but otherwise minimum chamber. I have to seat a 200 gr Speer into the lands about 0.020" to keep the groups under 1" at 100 yds. I worked up a load using IMR4320 to 2500 f/s that keeps 10-12 rounds under 1" then goes south. Seating into the lands has always been one way to get a sloppy chamber to perform better, but the loads must be worked up slowly and NO ball powders need apply.

Whoops...got long winded again...maybe something in there is worth the read.

Enjoy

Results of todays workups with the Beartooth 250 gr LFNGC...WW 748 powder, Fed GM primers, WW 356 Win cases, 2.005 trim length.

Cases stretched 0.010" plus or minus a bit in length and the shoulder moved out 0.008" plus or minus a bit on first firing and continued to stretch 0.005" on subsequent firings. After first firing and subsequent firings cases were trimmed to 2.010" Sizing die adjusted to set shoulder back 0.002" and locked. I used 2 cases at a time weighed to within a half grain, didn't bother with turning necks as they were uniform within 0.0015" but cleaned primer pockets each firing and deburred flash holes. I didn't weigh or measure bullets either.

I measured the land marks on a cartridge with bullet seated to 2.50" at 0.090", very shallow and hard to see so it was probably two to four thou deep. Started at 42 gr 748, 1430 f/s, 44 gr went to 1980 f/s and 45 gr went to 2101 f/s...averages for two shots. All rounds were hard crimped with a lee factory crimper in the crimping groove of the bullet. No pressure signs except for stiff lever closing due to the amount of land engraving on bullet.

I then backed out the seating stem to give about 0.045" land grooves, 2.45" COAL. Crimper wouldn't cooperate. The squeezing/rolling action of the crimper pushed the bullet down to an average of 2.48" COAL no matter what I did or how slowly or gently I operated the loader handle...SOMETHING to remember and to contemplate. This COAL engraved the bullet about 0.060", but didn't seem to change the velocity much, 45 gr 748 still gave 2100 f/s plus but it did increase each firing to 2142 f/s so there was something going on...dirty bore, heat, bullet weight change...could be many things.

One thing stood out when I went to the target. This rifle DIDN'T like something about this set of parameters...namely the bullet being shoved into the lands as I found out later. The target had two holes 14" apart, one high, one low. That stopped the process while I scratched my head and had lunch.

Before I started with the 250 gr Beartooth I loaded up two Speer 220 gr with 748 and went back to the 2.62" COAL but this time I hard crimped the bullets. The Lee crimper did push the case mouth into the bullet so I don't think these will get pushed back by spring pressure OR firing. I would guess the leat tips will get deformed though. 50 yd 2 shot group...3/4". I can live with that.

I decided to figure a way to change the bullet nose to stop the land engraving. I made up one dummy round at 2.5" COAL tapped it into a Wilson case holder for 243/308/358 case, chucked it up in the lathe and took a 0.010" cut with a 60 carbide cutter angled to take slightly larger than quarter inch wide cut starting at the crimp groove and angling toward the tip of the nose just enough to allow clearance on the lands. I didn't dial it in deadnutz, I used the 3 jaw and just eyeballed the wobble.

That turned out very OK, but I didn't want to be turning on a bullet, in a live cartridge, inside a tube so to speak, to do the real deal, so I messed around and just gently held the bullet in the jaw and turned it down. Worked perfectly. When I start turning the rest of the bullets I will make up a stop for the bullet base so I can proceed apace.

I fired those two on target and got a 3" group???? but by this time the light was fading, the scope has 3" of parallax at 50 yds and there are several more things to consider while working up a better load. The cut took off about 4 gr of lead give or take a couple of tenths. Not very much in other words.

Anyway, I solved the problem for myself and didn't have to re-throat which would have probably messed up the Speer 220 load, so all in all it was a very interesting and eventfull learning day.

Marshall...one thing did come to light with all this mucking about. The length of this bullet in this application causes a compressed load of 45 gr WW748 seated to 2.50" COAL and crimped in the crimping groove. Had this bullet a LCMN, WLN or LMN nose shape and possibly one less grease groove so it could be seated out to 2.60-2.63" in rifle with the action modified to handle that length, it would be an excellent proposition for Jess O. regrooved barrels or for ANY 35 cal application for that matter. Hint, hint :D

Doesn't seem to be much interest here so I will conclude my machinations. Maybe get a picture or two of the loaded bullets posted.

Forgot to mention the BLC-2 powder in the original load was packed in tight when I pulled the bullets. I had to use the wooden end of a cotton swipe to get the powder to come out, then use the cotton end to clean out the powder stuck inside the case, then carefully resize to get the primers out as the ball powder had packed in the primers also. It was supposed to by slightly compacted by reference of a couple of manuals and I knew it was by hearing the powder crunch slightly. I don't normally use compressed loads and I will go to great lengths NOT TO again. Always constant reminders to be careful and safe.

Enjoy

I have a lot of interest in your posts. That ‘ole work thang and the start of deer season preventing my participating at the moment.

I would move to a lighter bullet as I said. I know this against a lot of thinking of heavier cast bullets at modest velocity – a loading type that I too often favor. For the .356 and .358 Winchester cartridges I find I can drive the 200 grain cast bullets at full speed using Alox lube with little to no leading troubles – in my rifles I hand lube the bullets and seat them as cast.

My Winchester and Savage both have short throats. This why we are all saying you should shorten the COAL. What we have not said yet – or I should say what I have not said yet is that I would choose a different powder. Winchester 748 is a good performer with jacketed bullets but I do not favor it with cast bullets.
I would switch either IMR or Hodgdon 4895.

You cannot really compress the spherical powders they just become a solid mass as you noted. Using a case full of 4895 and seating against the powder charge with moderate compression I have never had a problem with gas checks seated below the neck/shoulder junction.

I have never had a serious problem with distorted bullet noses in the magazine from LBT or RCBS style noses and I am pretty certain my bullets are softer than what you are using. A BHN of 18 is a very hard bullet for me and I prefer 14 to 16.

I have patched the 200 grain PCBS bullet quite a bit to shoot in the .356, .358, .350RM and .35 Whelen. The bullet patches easily and I coat it with Lee sizing die wax and then size it to .360”. I seat these deep with a folded patch tail and they work fine.

When you order components try the 200-grain round nose bullets for deer. I use a case full of either 4198 and have been very happy with the results.

Thanks for the information, Slim. You gave me lots to mull over. As I said I haven't delt much with cast except for pistol work that was way back and a bit of 45-70 of late. I still have some 45 cal cast 185's left over plus some for the 45-70/45-90 project if I ever get it off the ground. I want to try the 425 and 525 gr just for "kicks". :D

I was using the WW748 because it happened to be the closest to grab and fullest bottle that was within the burning range I wanted and just happened to give me near 100% load density, Basically and depending on the 250 gr outcome, I had the 4895's and Varget next on the list to try. 748 worked very well with the Speer 220 gr and it gave exactly the same velocity, 2136 f/s for 3 shots with the 250. I don't see that very often and I wondered if my chrono had just rolled over, but it listed 3 shots over the screen and subsequent shots registered different velocities, so it must be fine.

I've never been a real ball powder fan except for certain applications. I use ball powders in several small calibers, i.e. 17 and .223 because barrel life seems longer and the barrels shoot cooler. Also with specific 308 Win and 30-06 loads. You can feel the difference in heat points along the barrel length, ball vs log. I did some limited testing in the past in that area. It was amazing how and where the barrel heated depending on the powder used. The only parameters that changed was the powder type, ball or log. All those paper notes and computer disks are long gone and I wish I had them back. Might have sold them to some gun rag for a bit o' brass.

After the futzing with the 250 Beartooth and finding the solution to the land engraving problem, I will turn the balance of the box and go to Varget and the others in that range, basically to shoot then up. They do have a snort tho', just over 20 ft lbs recoil at 2100 f/s and a good foot and half of muzzle rise. Plows a good furrow or crater when it hits. The 220 Speer would take out a rat from shrapnel if you just got close.

I have 10 cans of IMR 4320 I picked up when that powder became difficult to find and have been using it where I normally use 4895. 4064 is another one close by that I once used in my 220 Swift. It gave the best accuracy along with very good accuracy with Sierra 50 gr.

It looks like the 250 Beartooth, which actually weighs 258 gr plus or minus a bit and 254 gr modified, seated/crimped in the first grease groove will have the base of the GC even with the neck/shoulder junction in my application. I don't forsee any problems there. It would be nice if I got one good accurate load out of the balance of the bullets. It would be a good "Bar in the Trash--Bar in the Bush" load. :) :eek:

I have plans to try a 200 gr bullet and some of the 140-160 gr pistol bullets also in the future. The problem with NOT working is economics. I may have the time but it seems of little use because I run out of components much faster than money to buy them. Everyone lives that scenario. Come on Lotto!!! :D

Paper patching is another one of those endeavors I never got into but did tweak my curiosity. The 45-70/45-90 project was going to include a trip to that realm. I think I need to start hocking all my extraneous hardware and buy a ticket on the P train.

Thanks again for the wealth of info you provide in ALL your posts.

Enjoy

No pressure signs except for stiff lever closing due to the amount of land engraving on bullet.


I had intended to comment on this. I use the Lyman 311291 quite a bit and for use on the range I seat them to the crimp groove. The 311291 seated to the crimp groove engraves the rifling the full length of the nose and the lever must be squeezed to close on this bullet.
When hunting with this bullet I seat it deeper and crimp using the Lee crimper up on the drive band. This shortens the COAL a bit and allows the cartridge to chamber with little to no resistance on the lever.

I really enjoy using IMR 4320 in the .25 caliber cartridges. IMR 4320 is one of the superior powders for the .25-35 and the .25-35AI.

The 220-grain Speer should be the bullet for bear protection with the .356 Winchester. The 220-grain Speer is a bit tough for the lighter bodied deer and while it kills them, it will not do so quite as quickly as the 200-grain bullets will.

The 180-grain bullets are very useful in the .356. I use the bulk Remington JHP’s for lighter critters and the NEI LBT style plain base bullet for heavier animals. I am not a big fan of the Speer 180-grain bullet for use in the .356 but my father is, along with several other Beartooth Forum members. When Snow is able to get back to the range the 180-grain Speer is one of the bullets we intend to compare notes with. Snow has a friend who is a custom bullet maker and I hope to see more reports on these custom jacketed bullets

IMR 4320 is a very good powder...I use it in my 250 Sav AI, 338-06 and 17 Rem.

I would expect a bullet that gets stuffed into the lands to be accurate because it is centered for sure, but so far I'm not getting there.

Today was another disappointing one from the standpoint of not hitting that "good'un", but full of information none the less. I made a bullet stop for the lathe, then turned 10 bullets to start the process. H 4895 turned in almost the same velocity as the Hodgdon manual for 43 gr, but produced another shotgun group and the bullets went in sideways. I may have messed with the bullet center line this time. I turned these bullets with a longer nose taper and they ended up weighing ~245 gr. My 3 jaw has about 0.001" runout so I may have to use my 4 jaw and set up a smaller 3 jaw to hold the bullet center line closer.

Went back and reset the lathe toolpost angles and turned 10 more...just enough to clear the lands...they weighed ~255 gr. Tomorrow I will try another group with the H4895 to see if the turning had something to do with the "patterns" and use the rest with Varget.

The cases are holding up better than use with the Speer 220. I won't reload those any more than 5 times before the heads start getting iffy. By that time I have trimmed close to 0.050" total metal. So far I reloaded 2 cases 8 times before one went bad and I tossed the other one. I used those with the Speer 220 gr for 2 sets of loads. The other 2 cases have gone 8 reloads and the primer pockets are still very tight, plus I'm only trimming 0.002 to 0.003" each firing, sometimes none at all. The pressure must be fairly low with lead bullets.

I really would like to get something workable...I'm starting to run out of time this year. I have 3 other almost finished projects I want to finish before New Years or before the snow flies and I get froze out of my garage.

Speaking of the 338-06...what cast bullet weights and powders do you use in your Whelen? I have often thought of playing with a heavy, 250-280 gr bullet in my 338-06 but never got around to doing anything about it. This one has a very long throat, cut for the old Speer 270 gr, and I haven't gotten it to shoot anything but the Hornady 200 gr SP, 225 gr SP and the Nosler 200 gr. I really HATES any Nosler PT's, just spits them all over the place no matter what weight, powder or seating. The 225 PT looks so BAD when seated to 3.60", only has about 0.250" jump and the bullet base is right at the shoulder/neck junction...Perfect...except for the 4" or larger groups with any powder, amount, or primer I feed it. Quarter size 5 shot groups with the 200-225's and "patters" with anything els. I want to chew nails sometimes.

Thanks once again for the input. I will look up the Lyman bullet to see what it looks like.

Enjoy

I concluded my testing of the modified Beartooth 250 gr LFNGC this morning with the following results.

One - three round group using 43 gr H4895 out of the Hodgdon manual...1/2" CC - slightly squashed equilateral triangle at 2100-2150 f/s. I LIKE this one. I left the lathe set so I will turn the rest of the bullets and be very happy. I really did mess with the rotational center in the previous turned bullets and I'm very happy with the empirical information.

I also plan a long term test of crimps using this load and the Lee Factory crimper starting in a day or so and going through the winter.

I checked one 43 gr load of Varget over the Chrono. 2033 f/s. It is very slightly slower and very slightly denser at 0.002 gm/cc than H 4895. Varget would be a very good powder to try in the future. Actually almost exactly 100 f/s slower than a 43 gr load of H4895.

When things work out the testing process can get very short...saves on components and teeth nashing.

The load... I'm guessing a BC of .300...at 2150 f/s... produces right at 19 ft lbs recoil energy...2260 ft lb energy at 50 yds, 1990 ft /bs at 100, 1745 f/ lbs at 150 and 1530 at 200 yds...roughly speaking. Plenty good enough for most N.A. game within reasonable woods ranges.

Sighted 0.0 at 150 yds it is +1.25" at 50 yds, slightly less than +2" at 100 and 175 and just over 4.5" at 200 yds. You could add 150-200 f/s in a 358 bolt gun and near twice that with a 35 Whelen...maybe??? What do you think Slim?

I'm very happy with the final results of this testing. :D

This load would definitely get the attention of a "Bar anywhere close" with plenty of penetration I would suppose. In time I will work up some penetration test just for fun and post whatever I come up with. I'm interested in how deep this bullet will go into a log of dry lodgepole pine as compared to the 220 Speer.

'Njoy

Modified Beartooth 250 gr LFNGC bullets. Original bullet is base up, middle, bottom row.

For those interested I did more testing yesterday with the 250 LFNGC and AA2520 powder. COAL 2.53". Worked up to 48 gr but that was too hot, cases began to stick in the chamber. 48 gr is the top load for a 358 Win at 2.78" COAL at 49KPSI.

I dropped back to 46 gr, just slightly compressed, which seems to be just about the difference between the 356W and 358W for powders of this burn rate. Velocities were running ~2250 f/s over two chronos...BUT...the fly in the pie...my shooter didn't like this powder one bit. 6" two shot pattern at 50 yds. So far WW748 seems to be the goto powder and 2150 f/s the sweet spot.

Yesterday was beautifull, today is rain/snow. I will try BLC-2 next time the sun comes out. Same weight range, 46-48 gr to see what transpires. I think I might just get these 250 grainers shot up soon. :D :lol:

'Njoy

let us know how the BLC(2) works for you. I've tried some loads for my 356 with it, but had poor accuracy. THis was back when I was bending and breaking forearm bracket bolts and nothing was shooting well.

Now that my forearm is secure and my magazine floats, I'm ready to start load development again.

I will fire off a pair with the best WW748 load to check things out. I usually use a know good load first before trying a new load for group. I didn't do that this go-round so...???

The 46gr AA2520 was still stiff as the lever kicked open, plus it was about 100 f/s faster than the WW748 load...which doesn't bother the lever. I might drop the load a grain and see how that works. I started the BLC-2 load at 44 gr...one less than I started with the AA 2520. :D

Looks like rain for the next several days but I have the BLC-2 reloads setup and ready. It only takes about 10 min to get the chronos set up and another 15 minutes to fire the 8 rounds over the chrono and on target. That is....if all goes well???? :D

My 12 ga slug order should be in by the time the sun comes out also, so I will get to test some REAL thumpers at the same time. I'm trying to locate my PAST magnum wimp reducer AND my heavy sissy bag for these tests. nervous :lol: :D :D

'Njoy

Mother Nature didn't see the CNN weather report for today...after a bit of wet this am the sun came out so I got busy.

My forearm doesn't seem to cause much trouble yet...everything is still nice and tight. When it starts to loosen I will do something...not sure which or what...lots of ways to take it out of the equation as long as it's uniform.

Here's the scooby;

44 gr BLC-2 - 2030 f/s - case stretch - 0.002".
45 gr - 2050 f/s - case stretch - 0.002"
46 gr - 2130 f/s - c.s. - 0.004"
47 gr - 2144 f/s - c.s. - 0.005"
48 gr - 2180 f/s - c.s - 0.005" and sticky extraction.
Dropped load to 46.5 gr to target...7" one high, one low. Hummmmmmm.

Loaded 2 with 43 gr WW748, notes say "new taper" 1/2"CC at 50 yd. This time 4" one high, one low.

Loaded 2 with 220 Speer, 2.625" COAL, 49.5 ww748 - top load in Speer manual for this bullet and powder...50 yd group - 3/4" CC at 50 yd...same group as before...one slightly below the other by 1/2 bullet dia.

The Bushnell Legend scope on th 336 has 3" of parallax in it at 50 yds so I have to futz with that. I'm sending it back in to have it adjusted or reset to zero parallax at 75 yds as this isn't a long range shooter.

All target bullets had equal weights for each group...I weighed bullets until I found two equal then shot for group, lead and jacketed bullets.

There is something going on with the 250 gr LFNGC. Whether it is my messing with the ogive or the bullet dia ~~0.3585", I ordered 0.359", incompatibility with the 3 groove barrel or groove depth, powder/primer combination or something else. Doesn't matter...my shooter doesn't seem to like the bullets so I will load the rest around 2000 f/s and go scare the rats next spring...doubt if I can hit one.

While all this was going on my slug order from Gardner came in so it's azzta lumbego to the 336 after cleaning and loading up with the 220 Speers. This bullet seems to shoot well, it will do a good job and my slug tests will commence.

Man those Lyman 525 gr sabot are bad looking mofo's, 0.675 dia, 0.800" long, ~~1600 f/s...I'm talking jump up and down on your pec*** and spit. :D

I have another order of slugs coming in next week. Be interesting to compare...visually AND on the stumps.

'Njoy

NFG,

Am I understanding that the 250 BTB couldn't be seated any further in due to powder compression for your load, or was it that the bullet was actually starting to taper inside the case? I understand your throat issue, but not the part about the factory crimp die.
The factory crimp die will crimp the bullet anywhere,not just in the cannelure or driving bands.
I currently use the 220 Speer with 44grs of IMR 4320 in my 356 Win, and am getting superb accuracy.(sub MOA out to 150 yds)
I haven't been able to find a great load with the 180's yet, but have found some hunting acceptable loads for it. Seems my rifle likes bullets 200grs and up.

Sounds like you found a solution for your problem though
Good luck and great shootin'
johnny

Yes and no...I think
I turned the taper on the bullet nose just above the crimp groove because I wanted the bullet seated OUT as far as possible. The original bullet crimp groove put the COAL at about 2.50" but the original bullet hit the rifle lands at 2.40" COAL about, and yes the Lee factory crimper can crimp anywhere you want basically. Because the bullet is long I wanted all the space inside the case as possible and tapering the nose let me seat it out much farther than the original 2.40" COAL.

I checked my notes and I tried 4064, 4895, H322, AA2015, Varget, WW748, RL15, AA2520 and BLC-2 all together.

Highest velocity was with the Speer 220 and BLC-2 highly compressed load, 2376, 2.625-2.630 depending on the ogive, this box varied 0.005" using a Stoney comparator...a bit too much pressure...cases lasted about 3 reloads, but also very good accuracy...submoa to 100 yds. I don't know why I didn't try 4320 as I have about 8 cans and it is one of my favorite powders for my 17 Rem and 338-06. Maybe saving it for the 17 as I can go through 1000 rounds a year sometimes.

Yesssssirrreeebob...I like my 356 shooter...now if I can get the scope parallax worked out or another one hung on. :D

'Njoy

I got it now... I was "thinking" it was the other way around.
H-322 worked out pretty well if I remember off the top of my head,with the 180 Speer's(my notes are in my reloading room in the basement) Most everything else you tried;I tried with the exception of the AA powders. IMR 4895 was pretty good and 4064 was acceptable for hunting.
I switched to the IMR 4320 because it worked soooo good in my 350 Rem Mag that I had to give it a try.
BTW- I've killed about a dozen or so whitetails and 3 blackbears with the 220 gr Speer and never had any bullet issues at all. All but one deer was down in less than 30 yds, and the one that wasn't was my fault (liver shot...went down in about 100 yds) I only recovered 2 bullets, one from the bear on the offside hide that was beautifully mushroomed, and one from a deer that I neck shot length-wise down the spine recovered near the top of the butt. That bullet mashed a lot of bone, but still ended up weighing almost 175 grs.

Good shootin; I appreciate all your research,
johnny