I haven't had time to load up my normal pet deer loads for this weekend. I am hunting in North MO where the deer are healthy. My 7 Mag is sighted in dead nuts with Federal Premium 160 TBBCs. 3100 MV. I bought these rounds for Elk. I have never had the pleasure of hunting with them yet. I want something that drops em quick like my standard .30-06 165 SPs have 30+ times. Are these bullets too heavy for deer? Or I am worrying about nothing?

Worrying about nothing.......http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/thumb.gif

worry about how you're going to pack them out!

I have used Federal factory ammo loaded with TBBCs in my 35 Whelen. I took two animals with this ammo. My experience may give you some confidence.

First animal was an undisturbed, adult antelope doe at about 125 yds.: double lung shot with no major bones hit. She sprinted for 25 or 30 yds. and folded. The exit wound was about the size of a quarter.

The second harvest was a spike bull elk at less than 75 yds. broadside, undisturbed, standing: double lung hit entering just at the diaphragm and stopping just under the skin on the far side. The elk ran about 30 yds., piled up and died.

I am impressed by the efficient performance of this ammo on two animals of such different size and toughness. Shoot the TBBCs at MO deer and get ready to use your knife for field dressing.

BTW, I will be hunting MO whitetails in Gasconade County. I am bringing two rifles from Wyoming for this trip: 30-30 Marlin and 35 Rem. Marlin.

Best wishes for a successful hunt.

BTW, I will be hunting MO whitetails in Gasconade County. I am bringing two rifles from Wyoming for this trip: 30-30 Marlin and 35 Rem. Marlin.

Best wishes for a successful hunt.

Cool. I am from Gasconade County and will be hunting there later in the week. Small world. What part are you hunting?

Well... carrying it out wasn't any problem. But the bullet performed just the opposite of what I was worried about. It made a mess out of the front end of a small doe. I was worried that the TBBC would bore through a whitetail with limited expansion. No issue there! Now I wonder if the bullet at the advertised velocity (3100 fps/7-WSM) is solid enough for a square shoulder hit on a big elk. Worried about nothing again I guees, but I am a controlled expansion fan vs these blow-ups.

I am new to 7 Mags - used .30-06s forever. Any suggestions on a 7mm bullet that will give "controlled" expansion at these velocities? To date, on game I have used 150 partitions and 160 TBBCs on whitetail and the results have been explosive. I know, I know, use less gun. But this is the gun I use when river bottom hunting and long shots are possible.

Well... carrying it out wasn't any problem. But the bullet performed just the opposite of what I was worried about. It made a mess out of the front end of a small doe. I was worried that the TBBC would bore through a whitetail with limited expansion. No issue there! Now I wonder if the bullet at the advertised velocity (3100 fps/7-WSM) is solid enough for a square shoulder hit on a big elk. Worried about nothing again I guees, but I am a controlled expansion fan vs these blow-ups.

I am new to 7 Mags - used .30-06s forever. Any suggestions on a 7mm bullet that will give "controlled" expansion at these velocities? To date, on game I have used 150 partitions and 160 TBBCs on whitetail and the results have been explosive. I know, I know, use less gun. But this is the gun I use when river bottom hunting and long shots are possible.
You seem to like the 06. Why the 7mag?? Ain't much better than the 06

Barnes X,maybe.

Barnes X,maybe.

The Barnes TSX are always a contender. The Swift A frame is tough.

The Barnes TSX are always a contender. The Swift A frame is tough.

Yeah I thought I was getting an A-frame quality bullet with the Bonded Bear Claws. My gun shoots them really well at least.

Not quite ready to delve off into Barnes land yet. It is under consideration now though.

I'm shooting a .280 loaded with 160 grain Nosler Accubonds... A-Frames are a little too much money for me to swing, and the Barnes didn't do well as far as accuracy is concerned in my .25-06. I've had excellent luck with all styles of Nosler bullets over the years, but I like Ruger rifles too, so take that with a grain of salt.

Yeah I thought I was getting an A-frame quality bullet with the Bonded Bear Claws. My gun shoots them really well at least.

Not quite ready to delve off into Barnes land yet. It is under consideration now though.


The TBBC is a solid shank bullet with a bonded lead core in the front..They simply can not disintegrate and will withstand Any impact velocity...

I'm shooting a .280 loaded with 160 grain Nosler Accubonds... A-Frames are a little too much money for me to swing, and the Barnes didn't do well as far as accuracy is concerned in my .25-06. I've had excellent luck with all styles of Nosler bullets over the years, but I like Ruger rifles too, so take that with a grain of salt.

I saw a big bull elk taken at 375 yards this year w/ a 180 gr accubond. I had wondered about the toughness of the bullet, but it did pass this test. It was shot from a 300 WSM and passed thru both lungs, resting inside the far side hide.

It might not have handled a shoulder shot, though.

I have taken only one elk w/ the TBBC and it went end to end (chest first). The chest was soupy, so it definetly expanded, but it still had enough penetration to go all the way thru. No bones encountered.
I think the TBBC will open more than a BarnesX or an A frame, but may be tougher than an Accubond.

Would be interested in anyone else's experience.

They did well for me yesterday... but I was shooting deer, and at much closer range...

I saw a big bull elk taken at 375 yards this year w/ a 180 gr accubond. I had wondered about the toughness of the bullet, but it did pass this test. It was shot from a 300 WSM and passed thru both lungs, resting inside the far side hide.

It might not have handled a shoulder shot, though.

I have taken only one elk w/ the TBBC and it went end to end (chest first). The chest was soupy, so it definetly expanded, but it still had enough penetration to go all the way thru. No bones encountered.
I think the TBBC will open more than a BarnesX or an A frame, but may be tougher than an Accubond.

Would be interested in anyone else's experience.


Judging from what I saw a month or so back this is not the case at least with TSX, you did mention the X and not the TSX. Brain used a 375 H&H with the 300 grain TBBC and the recovered bullet had about the same amount of frontal area as the 225 TSX from my 338 Win. The expanded mushroom of both bullets was nearly identical. Both bullets were recovered from a large (about 1800 pound Bison)...

The TBBC is a solid shank bullet with a bonded lead core in the front..They simply can not disintegrate and will withstand Any impact velocity...

Well it didn't disinegrate I guess, but it did expand a lot more violently on a small doe than I anticipated. The deer was at 70 yds quartering towards me. I hit just in front of the right shoulder, obliterate the front edge of the chest cavity and then totally destroyed the opposite shoulder on the way out with baseball size exit wound. Perfect performance really, but I was expecting a bullet designed for Elk to pass through a small doe with much less to do. With a lead tip exposed and a 3100 MV, I guess that is what you get. I just like exit wounds and I am not sure this bullet (160 TBBC) at this velocitiy would give me an exit wound on a big animal like an Elk.

So I'll explore options. I am being deployed again in the spring and won't Elk hunt until 09. So I have time to think it over.

Options:

1. Use the Federal Premium 160 TBBCs that I have and drill the cavity and not worry about it.

2. Consider 175 grainers. Long 175 gr bullets may not be the best fit to load with the 7mm WSM. Depends on the throat, which I have not checked yet. The magazine on Model 70s does have some extra room. So far I have only loaded 140 Rem Cor-Lokts and 150 Hornady inner-bonds for this gun. Both good bullets and the inner-bonds would surely kill an Elk, but again, no exit wound is likely.

3. Go Barnes.

4. Try to find a box of Fail-Safes

Barnes...uhm. 6 out of 10 who have used them cuss their accuracy trial and tribulations. 4 out of 10 just flat swear by them.

Opinions on those options?

Bird Dog,
If you can find them, and they get acceptable accuracy, try the Failsafe. Midway had a sale on them awhile back. Not sure what they come in in 7mm, but a 160 should be good. If no success there, try the Swift A-frames.

3100 fps mv is a tall order for good bullet performance, especially inside 100 yards when the designers are trying to adequately cover all the bases, but I'm surprised the tbbc behaved like it did given what I've heard of it (never used it). If you can get some good accuracy from the TSX, I'd sure take a hard look at it. A friend uses a 180 TSX in his 8mm RM and he likes it.

Well it didn't disinegrate I guess, but it did expand a lot more violently on a small doe than I anticipated. The deer was at 70 yds quartering towards me. I hit just in front of the right shoulder, obliterate the front edge of the chest cavity and then totally destroyed the opposite shoulder on the way out with baseball size exit wound. Perfect performance really, but I was expecting a bullet designed for Elk to pass through a small doe with much less to do. With a lead tip exposed and a 3100 MV, I guess that is what you get. I just like exit wounds and I am not sure this bullet (160 TBBC) at this velocitiy would give me an exit wound on a big animal like an Elk.

So I'll explore options. I am being deployed again in the spring and won't Elk hunt until 09. So I have time to think it over.

Options:

1. Use the Federal Premium 160 TBBCs that I have and drill the cavity and not worry about it.

2. Consider 175 grainers. Long 175 gr bullets may not be the best fit to load with the 7mm WSM. Depends on the throat, which I have not checked yet. The magazine on Model 70s does have some extra room. So far I have only loaded 140 Rem Cor-Lokts and 150 Hornady inner-bonds for this gun. Both good bullets and the inner-bonds would surely kill an Elk, but again, no exit wound is likely.

3. Go Barnes.

4. Try to find a box of Fail-Safes

Barnes...uhm. 6 out of 10 who have used them cuss their accuracy trial and tribulations. 4 out of 10 just flat swear by them.

Opinions on those options?

Re. #1..what would drilling the cavity do? Wouldn't it make your expansion problem worse?

Re #3...going Barnes. I usually drop one weight level w/ Barnes vs other bullets due to their length and their performance. So in my 30-06, I'll go w/ the 168 grainer instead of my normal 180 grainer. This also flattens the trajectory a bit. The TSX's have proven very accurate in my 30-06, 300 WSM, 350 Rem mag, 35 WHelen & 45-70. Actually, with everything I've tried them in.

Other options...Federal is releasing a new TBBC w/ a plastic tip. SUpposed to expand at a wider range of velocities and has a better BC...plus lower price than most premium bullets.

then there's good old A frames and Partitions.

Re. #1..what would drilling the cavity do? Wouldn't it make your expansion problem worse?

Re #3...going Barnes. I usually drop one weight level w/ Barnes vs other bullets due to their length and their performance. So in my 30-06, I'll go w/ the 168 grainer instead of my normal 180 grainer. This also flattens the trajectory a bit. The TSX's have proven very accurate in my 30-06, 300 WSM, 350 Rem mag, 35 WHelen & 45-70. Actually, with everything I've tried them in.

Other options...Federal is releasing a new TBBC w/ a plastic tip. SUpposed to expand at a wider range of velocities and has a better BC...plus lower price than most premium bullets.

then there's good old A frames and Partitions.

Good advice. BTW, when I say drilling the cavity, I mean drilling the target in the chest cavity, not altering the bullet. Poor term on my part.

I know these aren't on game but might help with comparing different bullets,

http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/HMbul_0905/index.html (3 Pages)

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/bulletshootout.html

I do not reload. I purchased a Tikka 270 WSM for this autumn's hunt. I wanted to use 130 TSX but the local outlets didn't stock them. I needed to sight in and get on with it, so, based on a article I had read, I went with Fed 140 Nosler Accubond loads.

They shot sub .5 MOA, which was encouraging and they were reputed to hold together at higher velocities. The cartridge achieves right at 3200 fps.

I hunted MT in open country. I took four mule deer and a pronghorn at ranges from right at 100 yards or so, out to 322. I took broadside boiler room shots. They were all through and through. Other than where the bullet hit a rib, there was no meat damage. The round took out the lungs and heart in every case and the animals dropped right there.

Hunting deer with a 7mm mag and those bullets would be blast. That cartridge is a like a laser. Just stay away from shoulder or backstrap shot placement and meat damage is nil. They drop on the spot.

Thx reneerick. I had seen one of those articles before, but not the other.

Jack, you are correct, for long range deer killing, the .270 WSM or 7mm Rem Mag/WSM are hard to beat. I killed a big buck last year with the 7WSM and stock Federal 150gr SPs. It looked like someone shot a vollyball through this deer. No meat loss really, since it was broadside through the ribs. But is was an embarassing and unnecessary hole. The 160gr TBBC peformed about the same on a much smaller deer this year. I plan to use this gun Elk hunting in a year or two and I want assured penetration, even on a square solid shoulder shot. And I would like an exit wound on a typical broadside shot. I thought the 160gr TBBC was the ticket, but now I am not sure. No doubt they are lethal on Elk, but being an avid bowhunter, I just really like having an exit wound.

A buddy of mine lost a Moose in Alaska this year in super thick brush. He shot it at 200yds with a .35 Whelen and 225gr Federal Premiums. Probably not enough bullet (or not good enough shooting). Since there was no exit wound, the big cow didn't bleed externally much and they lost the trail in the brush. Then they had Bear problems.

Anyway, I have heard of Elk traveling a long distance after being fatally shot. I'd hate to lose one due to not having an exit wound and decent blood trail. Probably concerned about nothing. Like I said before, with the TBBC or any premium bullet through the 7 Mag, if you drill the vitals, it ain't going far. Broadheads have taught me this much. But it would be nice to have the assured penetration just in case.

Let's put this in perspective (and I am NOT pointing at anyone in particular here. We ALL do this)…

We buy a rifle chambered in a round that will kill deer in another zip code. We mount the equivalent of the Hubble Telescope on it for sights. Then we load cartridges for it that are one foot-per-second short of detonation. Then, not only do we shoot a deer at horseshoe-pitching range, but we are aghast that the bullet ruins some of the meat.

Does anyone NOT see that we might be both over-estimating what gear we truly need, and then also under-estimate how nearly impossible it is for any such gear to perform at the polar opposite of conditions it was designed for?

I'm not ranting about the gear choice as much as I'm chastising about the expectations we have for it. We'd never expect a 30-30 to work at 300 yards, so why do we expect a 300 Something Mag to perform at 50?

I hear ya Rocky. Thought I needed wheel-mounted cannons for a long time (mostly courtesy of the garbage in the popular gun magazines at the time).

Got a real eye-opener when I found out how well my .257 Roberts and .35 Rem killed stuff. Those are the two that go out the most.

.338 win mag is going out today, mostly because it's been a long time since it was used. Probably will end up shooting a 90 lb. doe or spike :rolleyes:

Would never deny anyone their choice, but we get a little carried away sometimes. That's just human nature, I guess.....

We'd never expect a 30-30 to work at 300 yards, so why do we expect a 300 Something Mag to perform at 50?

Rocky, you really nailed that one dead-center! :) If I was a bullet designer, I think I'd be constantly frustrated trying to cover all the possible scenarios that bullet might experience, and even worse, trying to manage people's expectations in their use (or misuse).

All I have to say is the Nosler Accubonds did their job again this morning. I think Nosler might have to change the name to Headhunter or something along those lines...

Rocky- Just buy a .25/06, it'll work at 50 or 300 yards :)

I remember reading about Townsend Whelen carrying his Springfield .30-06 afield on his long treks. He didn't want to lug two rifles around, so he carried both full power and much reduced loads for the one rifle. More of the latter, These let the same rifle work as a kind of overbore ersatz .22 for the small game he shot for his dinner.

Most load discussions are about maximum loads and their imminent pressure signs and high performance. Occasionally we discuss reduced loads here, like Rocky's Unique load for various .30's, and many of the cast bullet loads we discuss are a good way to go in between in power levels with medium and smaller bores. But there is also a lot of load territory in between that could be covered. Carrying a magnum .30 afield, it could make good sense to have some accurate rounds loaded down to somewhere between .30-30 and .30-06 levels for shorter range shots in dense woods. It makes ammo management more of a chore, but with clear markings, the necessary habits can be developed.

The only problem with that is most people use telescopic sights, so a light load often won't have the same POI at your predetermined range.

Let's put this in perspective (and I am NOT pointing at anyone in particular here. We ALL do this)…

We buy a rifle chambered in a round that will kill deer in another zip code. We mount the equivalent of the Hubble Telescope on it for sights. Then we load cartridges for it that are one foot-per-second short of detonation. Then, not only do we shoot a deer at horseshoe-pitching range, but we are aghast that the bullet ruins some of the meat.

Does anyone NOT see that we might be both over-estimating what gear we truly need, and then also under-estimate how nearly impossible it is for any such gear to perform at the polar opposite of conditions it was designed for?

I'm not ranting about the gear choice as much as I'm chastising about the expectations we have for it. We'd never expect a 30-30 to work at 300 yards, so why do we expect a 300 Something Mag to perform at 50?

Well, that's a little off base in this case Rock. I typically deer hunt with a .30-06 loaded down to mild .308 /.300 Savage levels, muzzle-loaders, and most of all with a bow. This gun (7WSM) was bought for future western Elk, Mulie, and Antelope hunting. It's been used on midwestern deer for the last couple years in an effort to get use to it in the field. You can shoot at a range all you want, but that does not replace using a rifle in the field. Now, I am pretty sure Elk can be shot at 50yds as well as at 300. What I am looking for is a bullet that will perform the best in both situations. A bullet that flys apart on a small deer does not give me a lot of confidence. 175gr bullets would be the obvious solution for a 7 Rem Mag, but I don't know if they are a good fit for the WSM. The gun feels great and shoots lights-out groups with 140s, 150s, and 160s, so it is a keeper. I am just searching for ideas here since I am rather new to 7mm bullets.

Try the triple-shocks from Barnes. That's about as close as you can get to an indestructable bullet, and still have expansion down to the 2,000fps range.

If your rifle won't shoot those, then the usual list of bonded/premium bullets applies - Partition, FailSafe, etc., etc.

You're still gonna have some meat damage at 50 yards though. But at short ranges you hopefully will have the opportunity to avoid hitting the parts you plan on eating.

Good luck.

The only problem with that is most people use telescopic sights, so a light load often won't have the same POI at your predetermined range.

I don't expect that would really be much of an issue if you're not running the load too far out. Something between .30-30 and .30-06, say, 2500 fps, is going to be fairly flat shooting at shorter ranges. You could adjust bullet weight up a little if you needed to elevate POI to come close to a match with the magnum ammo at 200 yards. For deer-sized game you could then ignore the difference out to that range limit. Beyond that, you'd run your power load.

Load your '06 with a regular ol' cup-and-core 180 gr. bullet like the Sierra GameKing leaving the muzzle around 2500 fps. Then venture forth, well-equipped to kill any ungulate upon the continent. Easy on the gun, the shoulder, the pocketbook. Very hard on hooved beasties.

Load your '06 with a regular ol' cup-and-core 180 gr. bullet like the Sierra GameKing leaving the muzzle around 2500 fps. Then venture forth, well-equipped to kill any ungulate upon the continent. Easy on the gun, the shoulder, the pocketbook. Very hard on hooved beasties.

Yeah pisgah, I have a similar load figured out for the 06. I load 165 Nosler Ballistic Tips down to about 2600. That is pretty mild for a .30-06. You can get 2800 easy and 2900 with several powders if you work at it. Everyone complains about Bal-Tips coming apart too easy. But I tell you, at 2600 to 2175 FPS (the velocity from muzzle to 250yds), they are perfect bullets for deer. At this velocity range, they open up perfectly and produce an exit wound. I have hit large deer front quartering square in the shoulder and gotten enough penetration do do the job. At 2900, they do not perform as well IMO. I think the 150 and 165gr .30 cal Ballistic-tips were designed for the .308 and .300 Savage.

Nick-

I guess what I'm trying to say and think (most likely incorrect) that while both 140gr and 165gr bullets in my .280 are incredibly accurate, there are 4" of difference at 100 yards, velocity is 150 FPS different, felt recoil is the same.